Question on NTSB Report...USAir 767

JEP · November 23rd, 2005, 21:11

Quote:

DCA06WA006On
November 6, 2005, at 0745 local British time, the flight crew of a USAirways Boeing 767-200, registered in the United States as N653US,, failed to lower the landing gear until notified by the air traffic control tower to go around. The tower controller then observed the gear extend and amended his instructions to allow the aircraft to land. This is being investigated by the British Air Accidents Investigation branch as a serious incident.

Obviously this was an oversight on the crew, but my question is what kind of alarms do they receive if any regarding ldg gear being up or down.

Baronman · November 23rd, 2005, 21:29

I'm not a 767 driver however...(I think there are a few on JCareers).

Most retractable gear aircraft from a Piper Arrow to a 747 have some sort of landing gear warning. That being said, some are better than others and accidental gear up landings are not all that uncommon. It occurs in the training environment in light aircraft frequently, usually because the attention of the pilots has become focused on something else and checklists aren't followed.

The landing gear warning sounds when the aircraft "thinks" it's landing and the gear isn't down. The plane may think it's landing when the flaps are down to some degree or possibly if the aircraft is below a certain altitude.

It would be pretty difficult to forget the gear in a typical modern airliner operating in a 121 environment. There is landing gear warning system, checklists, and two guys/gals up front that have lowered gear thousands of times.

Chris_Ford · November 23rd, 2005, 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEP

Obviously this was an oversight on the crew, but my question is what kind of alarms do they receive if any regarding ldg gear being up or down.

I know on the 727 they have that godforsaken horn...

DE727UPS · November 24th, 2005, 01:28

If you go to landing flaps, that's 25 or 30, with the gear not down and locked, you get a really loud warning siren. Also, the EGPWS should say "to low, gear", at some point. Siren also comes on at 800 AGL with thrust levers at idle with the gear not down.

I wanted more info on this one as it's my equipment type but the report doesn't mention altitudes. I've seen guys not drop the gear and go to landing flaps until 1500 AGL. I'm wondering if the tower was possibly a bit quick to make a big deal out of what might have been simply an intentional delay in gear extension.

ROFCIBC · November 24th, 2005, 22:14

Digging back in to the memory bank...that's a treat!

One night we had an unsafe gear at RDU. If I remember correctly the procedure was to go down below 500 agl and pull a throttle back. If the gear horn sounded it was unsafe and you went into another checklist, and obviously DID NOT land.

If the horn didn't blow it was a malfunction of the gear unsafe light system as there were two different systems.

That night in addition to the below 500 agl thing we did a flyby so the tower, with the aid of one helluva bright spot light, could check our gear.

In the end, it was down, we landed OK.

So from all that...I'd say below 500 foot in the landing configuration, WITH A THROTTLE BACK triggers the gear warning.

Again...been a loooooong time...many NASCAR races...many beers kemosabbe!

flyover · November 25th, 2005, 09:08

I still have a vivid mental picture of an Eastern 727 breaking out of the overcast over the old employee parking lot in ATL (the approach lights for 9R started in this parking lot). The gear doors are just starting to cycle open, no gear visible yet. I was waiting for the go around, but the gear came out and the doors were just cycling closed as they started the flare. That's about as close as you can cut it.

As to the above report. Without any altitudes included it's impossible to know if the tower actually "saved" anyone. On VFR days I liked to time "gear down" just in time to be configued at 1000' AGL (after they got so picky about 1000'). In the fun days 500' was more of a VFR target to be configured and stabilized. Lower for some guys.

November 23rd, 2005, 21:29	#2
Baronman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NEWARK Posts: 1,049	I'm not a 767 driver however...(I think there are a few on JCareers). Most retractable gear aircraft from a Piper Arrow to a 747 have some sort of landing gear warning. That being said, some are better than others and accidental gear up landings are not all that uncommon. It occurs in the training environment in light aircraft frequently, usually because the attention of the pilots has become focused on something else and checklists aren't followed. The landing gear warning sounds when the aircraft "thinks" it's landing and the gear isn't down. The plane may think it's landing when the flaps are down to some degree or possibly if the aircraft is below a certain altitude. It would be pretty difficult to forget the gear in a typical modern airliner operating in a 121 environment. There is landing gear warning system, checklists, and two guys/gals up front that have lowered gear thousands of times. __________________ "I got a FEVER, and the only perscription is more Cow-Bell!"

November 24th, 2005, 22:14	#5
ROFCIBC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Bossier City, Louisiana Posts: 591	767 Gear Warning Digging back in to the memory bank...that's a treat! One night we had an unsafe gear at RDU. If I remember correctly the procedure was to go down below 500 agl and pull a throttle back. If the gear horn sounded it was unsafe and you went into another checklist, and obviously DID NOT land. If the horn didn't blow it was a malfunction of the gear unsafe light system as there were two different systems. That night in addition to the below 500 agl thing we did a flyby so the tower, with the aid of one helluva bright spot light, could check our gear. In the end, it was down, we landed OK. So from all that...I'd say below 500 foot in the landing configuration, WITH A THROTTLE BACK triggers the gear warning. Again...been a loooooong time...many NASCAR races...many beers kemosabbe! __________________ ROFCIBC, aka JIBC I didn't do that, I won't do it again, you can't prove it, that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

November 25th, 2005, 09:08	#6
flyover Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,389	I still have a vivid mental picture of an Eastern 727 breaking out of the overcast over the old employee parking lot in ATL (the approach lights for 9R started in this parking lot). The gear doors are just starting to cycle open, no gear visible yet. I was waiting for the go around, but the gear came out and the doors were just cycling closed as they started the flare. That's about as close as you can cut it. As to the above report. Without any altitudes included it's impossible to know if the tower actually "saved" anyone. On VFR days I liked to time "gear down" just in time to be configued at 1000' AGL (after they got so picky about 1000'). In the fun days 500' was more of a VFR target to be configured and stabilized. Lower for some guys. __________________ Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right. — Henry Ford

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November 24th, 2005, 01:28	#4
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,521	If you go to landing flaps, that's 25 or 30, with the gear not down and locked, you get a really loud warning siren. Also, the EGPWS should say "to low, gear", at some point. Siren also comes on at 800 AGL with thrust levers at idle with the gear not down. I wanted more info on this one as it's my equipment type but the report doesn't mention altitudes. I've seen guys not drop the gear and go to landing flaps until 1500 AGL. I'm wondering if the tower was possibly a bit quick to make a big deal out of what might have been simply an intentional delay in gear extension.