Question for experienced pilots in the airlines......

[meyers9163]

Currently I am a Junior in College and expect to graduate in May 2007 if not finish up early in December of 2006. After that I plan to go after my ratings and knock them off as quickly as I can. I am wondering what now would be the best route in getting the ratings. I hear so much about FBO's because of the cost and quality but at the same time what about a Embry Riddle or Delta Connection Academy? I realize all the criticism towards the DCA but what about the Riddle Graduates? Bottom line is I realize the picture of the industry and that's why I will finish my degree and later get my Masters but no matter what I will fly and want to. So what route would you suggest for someone in my position to get the ratings and from a quality place. Once again I realize the low salary of first officers and how the industry works. So I dont want to hear you only make 20,000 your first year, because bottom line is I am going to do it because I LOVE it and want to. I just want some good advice as to what route to take. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Those of you two think "Stay with your degree" please do not respond.

[pilot602]

You're not going to make $20,000 ... you're going to make less.

It's a long, hard road. Some think it's worth it, some don't. Go to an FBO and get your private and see if indeed you really DO want to fly. It may be you really aren't comfortable with it. It may be it's too expensive. It may be that you can't hold a medical. It might be you do love it and want to continue but now you're a little more informed and a little wet behind the ears you can decide if, after your private, a fast-track program is for you or the more customizable approach of an FBO.

But remember, there are no shortcuts in this game ...

and just a friendly hint try doing a search there is a TON of info in the "archives" around here. Don't pass it up!

[B767Driver]

I would try not to get too "airline" focused. The airlines are a great goal...but the jobs are going to be fewer and harder to get in the future. In the '60s, '70s and '80s...it was extremely difficult to find an airline job. In the '90s...the RJ explosion occurred and provided thousands of job opportunities. That formula is unlikely to repeat or continue. So, first of all, I would look down the road and see what kind of flying would satisfy you. If you'll be satisfied flying a charter King Air and chief pilot of the local FBO...then go for it. You'll be very happy in your career.

Concerning where to get your flight training. I don't think it matters. FBO or big name flight school...I wouldn't persuade you one way or the other. Just find a good instructor...an instructor who is thorough and eager to teach. The important thing is that you establish a solid foundation in your first 50 to 100 hours of instruction. Maybe someone else who has had more recent contact with the "big name" flight schools could provide more perspective for you. I've probably been out of touch with the university aviation programs too long...they might be able to give you some more recent perspective.

My only other advice would be to stay out of debt. I would not take out a loan to finance flight training (or any education for that matter). The goal of education should be to improve your standard of living. If the education costs more than the financial rewards of the job...then it could have the opposite effect. And yes...you can make that happen. Work two or three jobs, live with mom and dad...you can save $10k a year or so.

[Baronman]

Well, it's a good idea that you're finishing your undergraduate degree.

As far as training goes there are certainly many ways to go about doing your training. A popular option seems to be getting a private certificate at a local FBO. See how that goes, maybe you love the place...Then keep doing your certificates there. If you're looking for a little more structure consider one of the part 141 schools.

If you want to go to away to one of these schools definetly go and visit. Most are accomadating to visitors, Flight Safety I know was allowing visitors to stay for free in their dormatories. Talk to current students, etc. Make sure to bring your "BS" detector along.

One thing that I would definetly say is that one has to roll with the punches as they go through training and ultimately try to get the job they desire. Be prepared to go through some tough times to get where you want to go. I'm not saying this to scare you, but I think alot of guys are seeing the current hiring boom and are ready to jump in. Yeah airlines are hiring guys with 300, 500, 600 hours (sigh), will this be the case next year? Who knows. It was like that when I started training a couple years ago, and before I knew it nobody was hiring and I was driving to Montgomery, Alabama looking for a CFI job. Then took a job in NY, then took another job in Fla.....And I'd say I was fortunate!

Ah, and yes you can make over $20,000 as a first officer. Alot depends on how long you're on reserve (at least once I got off reserve I started flying over 90hrs/month).

[A300Capt]

[ QUOTE ]
Once again I realize the low salary of first officers and how the industry works. So I dont want to hear you only make 20,000 your first year, because bottom line is I am going to do it because I LOVE it and want to

[/ QUOTE ]

An f/o position at a Regional airline is not a starting point after school. *Most* new hires have years of being a CFI, FBO charter pilot or flew for a small freight outfit prior to moving on to a Regional. Sounds glamorous, and it is, when you're young and just starting out but it's not where the money is nor job security. Besides, all this was accompanied by very long hours and very low, almost poverty wages. This usually separates the folks who really love and want a career in flying with those who "thought" they love flying.

It's a long hard road to the top, where ever that top is for you, with absolutely no guarantees of progression at each step. Some people "luck out" along the way and others can't seem to catch a break no matter what they do. No training company can guarantee you anything and they have no idea of future hiring trends regardless of what they tell you. They just want your money...period!

Have a back up plan! Be prepared for disappointments along the way. Know that there are no guarantees. Know that youthful idealism of what they think a career path will be like rarely matches reality. Do I like what I do? Yes. Do I love it? Not as much any more. Am I glad I followed my dreams and career path? Yes. Would I do it again knowing what I know now? Not sure I could answer "yes" to that with a straight face and I'm with one of the more secure and profitable airlines. Times change and so do attitudes, ambitions and priorities.

Take a good hard look and decide if this is truly worth your time and effort. If you decide it is, put the blinders on, work very hard at being the best, don't turn down any opportunity for advancement and don't let anyone tell you it can't be done. Expect disappointments along the way and be proud of the accomplishments. After all, if it were easy, everyone would be doing it and the ride to the top wouldn't have been near as fun or fulfilling!

[jtsastre]

Now I’ve back-stepped to when I used to doubt whether it’s worth it or not to pursue a career in aviation.

Jtsastre

[SFLAX]

As to the going to the regionals after flying for years as a CFI or Frieght ot Charter. I find it more the oppisite, in my airline ground school there was no charter or cargo, just CFI's and three people from other regionals. Also I only instructed for 7 months, it is about being very goal oriented and if you want to go to the airlines, that is all you should think about, is how am I going to get there in the quickest time possiable, this means moving, giving up vacations, weekends and anything you love to do that costs money. But as for a education, go to a big airport to train in the most complex airspace possible.

[Doug Taylor]

[ QUOTE ]
Now I’ve back-stepped to when I used to doubt whether it’s worth it or not to pursue a career in aviation.

Jtsastre

[/ QUOTE ]

You've got to be a lot tougher because it's not easy, safe or guaranteed.

[DE727UPS]

"Flight Safety I know was allowing visitors to stay for free in their dormatories. Talk to current students, etc. Make sure to bring your "BS" detector along."

Dude, it's bungalow, not a simple dormatory. One of the percs of the FSA program.

[DE727UPS]

"Those of you two think "Stay with your degree" please do not respond."

Please say again?

[MikeD]

But Don, he stated just before that:

[ QUOTE ]

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

?

[meyers9163]

Thanks for the replies. I realize all the facts that go along with this career. I realize its not guaranteed and that's why I will have a degree to fall back on. With that said I understand hard work and have no problem doing what it takes to do the best that I can possibly do. However, I want to ask another question and that is if any of you have personal experience with a Embry Riddle or DCA? Obviously people speak of these as fast track and i'm not concern about timing and how long it takes I want the best education and training. I have a friend who is a current pilot (20+ years of experience) and he is going to start me off with my private on his days off at the cost of fuel. Anyone have any other suggestions about where to do training, personal experience with training, or what was your hardest thing about finding your way into your current positions? I absolutely love this field and hate people who are flying but think of it as a job and do not want to. It reminds me of teachers who get an education to teach and realize the low pay and then have the nerve to complain about what they make. Any input about the above would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]

I want to ask another question and that is if any of you have personal experience with a Embry Riddle or DCA?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes

[ QUOTE ]

I absolutely love this field and hate people who are flying but think of it as a job and do not want to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you hate me? You don't even know me or what my job of flying, all inclusive, entails. I do it because it pays the bills, and has some sense of being worthwhile. Otherwise I'd have my own warbird and my own ranch airfield to fly it out of, with no worries, no cares, and accountable to no one.

It's alot more than just sitting in a chair pushing buttons.

[DE727UPS]

I graduated from Riddle.

If you have a friend with 20 plus years in the biz who is starting you out with your private, you might want to consider working with him for a longer time. I'll venture to say NO CFI's at Riddle, FSA, or DCA have 20 years in the biz. Nor would I believe any promises they make about advancing your career with the industry being as unstable as it is.

Put your time in, get your ratings, build your experience, and you will have opportunites. That's my guarantee....

[jtsastre]

Thanks Mr. Taylor that's just the kind of encouragement I need.

Jtsastre

[meyers9163]

Thanks for the replies..... Could anyone share or tell me about their experience at DCA or Riddle?

[montanapilot]

why would you go to riddle after you get your degree? You dont need a second degree for the airlines. I couldnt imagine one doing just flight training there talk about expensive.

and DCA just read the forum you find plenty about this little jewel of a place.

[Chris_Ford]

While I am not quite the "Experienced pilot in the airline"... I will let you the original poster know that, the saying on the board is right. At first it's a blast, but eventually it's a job, and quality of life takes the cake. Everything is really neat at first, but once you start flying 8 hrs a day for x days a week, doing the same thing, it'll seem tedious. Of course, you'll have those zen moments (See Lloyd's thread [I think it was Lloyd's, at least]), but there will also be those days when you'll just sort of grind through it.

So, in summation: flying as a whole is fun, and is better than, say, an office job, but it's still a job. If it was all fun and games, they wouldn't pay you to do it

[Matt777]

[ QUOTE ]

Currently I am a Junior in College and expect to graduate in May 2007 if not finish up early in December of 2006. After that I plan to go after my ratings and knock them off as quickly as I can. I am wondering what now would be the best route in getting the ratings. I hear so much about FBO's because of the cost and quality but at the same time what about a Embry Riddle or Delta Connection Academy?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no experience and am not an airline pilot, but I have read posts at other forums about DCA where they say that you are quoted $46,000, but it actually costs $70,000 to $80,000.
I can't find that exact thread or remember where it was, but here's another one: http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthr...0&page=2&pp=15

[Mike Lewis]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the replies..... Could anyone share or tell me about their experience at DCA or Riddle?

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, have you tried the ERAU or DCA forums?

[Chaz]

Hi p i l o t 6 0 2

You figure of making less the $20,000 a year as a first officer is crap unless your a first officer for a small commuter with maybe two planes. I have never heard such an exageration of the truth. Maybe you make less than $20,000 as a CFI but definitely not a first officer. Also, I am tiring of the negative advice about entering the industry. Will all you people just pick your heads up, be optimistic, and network as much as you can. Any industry is rough but you have to be persistent in your goals. If you are looking at ERAU or DCA, I would suggest FIT aviation which has an aviation program (aero science, meter., management, safety) at Florida Institute of Technology. ERAU is definitely overrated and too damn expensive.

Chuck

[ComplexHiAv8r]

[ QUOTE ]
You figure of making less the $20,000 a year as a first officer is crap unless your a first officer for a small commuter with maybe two planes. I have never heard such an exageration of the truth. Maybe you make less than $20,000 as a CFI but definitely not a first officer.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, actually under $20K seems to be the first year at most regionals now. (see below for sample table). It's not pretty out there presently.

From airlinepilotcentral.com


Rate Min Guar Yearly
Pinnacle $21/hr 75hrs/month = 18,900 yearly
Skyway $19/hr 75hrs/month = 17,100 yearly
Mid Atlic $21/hr 72hrs/month = 18,144 yearly
Colgan $20/hr 75hrs/month = 18,000 yearly
PSA $21/hr 75hrs/month = 18,900 yearly
Mesaba $24/hr 75hrs/month = 21,600 yearly
Air Wis $23/hr 75hrs/month = 20,700 yearly

The hours per month is the guarantee minimum. I wouldn't budget more then that a month. Extra hours would be fun money, NOT living money.

I don't like it, and hope it improves as I work towards entering this industry.

[FlyingNole]

Ya, but you'll find that pilots don't just fly the mins, and you also have per diem pay which knocks that $18,500 pay up to around $20,000

[ComplexHiAv8r]

That might be true, but I also don't think someone should think ok, I am going to make $25,000 that first year because I will be flying 90-100hrs per month and that per diem, let me go get that BMW like Kristie has! It's as reliable as a FORD!

I will ask, when a pilot is going for a home loan do they want your salary based on the min, or actually what you have been doing lately?

Also, lets hear from the first year FO out there! Whats it looking like on reserves and hours per month?

Thanks in advance.

[Kingairer]

When I was a newhire on reserve, I can remember one month where I made 115hours worth of pay. Flew around 95. I think first year before Taxes I made 24K or so.

Youre not going to get rich first year pay at any airline.