PIC TIME

Ramsey · September 7th, 2005, 16:47

Had this discussion at the aero club today....

Can you count the solo x-country (PIC) time prior to getting your PPL towards the 50 hours of x-county required for your IFR rating?

Thanks!

Ramsey

BobDDuck · September 7th, 2005, 16:50

MikeD · September 7th, 2005, 16:51

Ramsey · September 7th, 2005, 16:56

That's what I thought, but the two CFIs at the club said "The very first thing in the FARs is that you must at least have a PPL. So you can't count anything until you have met step one."

My reply was that there was no order or "steps" in the FAR requirments, but in the end I let it go because they have about 4k more hours than I do.

MidlifeFlyer · September 7th, 2005, 18:54

[ QUOTE ]
but in the end I let it go because they have about 4k more hours than I do.

[/ QUOTE ]I can guarantee you that the number of flight hours (even as CFI) and even the quality of instruction being given has absolutely no relationship to the level of understanding of the FAR logging rules.

[ QUOTE ]
The very first thing in the FARs is that you must at least have a PPL. So you can't count anything until you have met step one.

[/ QUOTE ]The easy response to that one is to pull out your FAR, hand it over and ask to be shown that "very first thing."

Texguy · September 7th, 2005, 20:18

Ramsey I had been wondering about this, too.

B767Driver · September 7th, 2005, 21:10

[ QUOTE ]
Had this discussion at the aero club today....

Can you count the solo x-country (PIC) time prior to getting your PPL towards the 50 hours of x-county required for your IFR rating?

Thanks!

Ramsey

[/ QUOTE ]

I would agree with you aero club CFI's. The PIC X/C time would not be loggable until you received your PPL.

All time until then would be Solo....not PIC.

ERJ-135 · September 7th, 2005, 21:14

Yes per FAR 61.51 (e)(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot-(i) is the sole occupant of the aircraft........

Therefore, on the solo X-countries, the student log should show it as PIC.

Kingairer · September 7th, 2005, 21:16

This rule changed about 5 years Ago i guess...ERJ is right.

B767Driver · September 7th, 2005, 21:23

I suppose I should learn my regs. My last IRA applicant was in 1992...so I guess I'm a bit rusty.

Thank for setting me straight!

B767Driver · September 7th, 2005, 21:25

I opened up my FAR 61....and guess what. I actually highlighted 61.51e4! It must have caught my eye at one point in time.

MikeD · September 7th, 2005, 21:48

[ QUOTE ]

I would agree with you aero club CFI's. The PIC X/C time would not be loggable until you received your PPL.

All time until then would be Solo....not PIC.

[/ QUOTE ]

Coming from old school, that's how my logbook reads for PPL. I've never updated it, since the time is fairly negligible all told.

Ramsey · September 8th, 2005, 08:26

The responses in this forum are just about along the lines of what went down at the club. I guess it boils down to interpretation. In the end I think that it will not matter because I'm told it is not uncommon for someone to log more than 50 hours before the check ride anyway.

Thanks for all of the feedback!

Ramsey

MidlifeFlyer · September 8th, 2005, 08:32

[ QUOTE ]
The responses in this forum are just about along the lines of what went down at the club.

[/ QUOTE ]You mean some folks knew the right answer and others didn't and were perhaps using information that changed 7 years ago?

flyguy · September 8th, 2005, 15:32

I think there are two possibilities why your CFI friends at the aero club are getting confused.

#1 - they may be looking at 61.51 where it says you may only log PIC time for which you are flying an aircraft for which you are rated. If you look at that and stop reading, they are correct because a pre-private is not rated in the aircraft therefore cannot log PIC. However if you keep reading you'll find, as was pointed out above, that there is an exception made for student pilots who are flying solo. The instructors at the aero club may mot be reading far enough into it.

#2 - you said they had 4000 some hours which means they probably learned this particular FAR way back in the day when you were not allowed to log PIC as a student pilot. Times have changed, and so they may not know this not only in spite of, but actually because of the fact that they have many years of experience.

MikeD · September 8th, 2005, 20:57

[ QUOTE ]
The responses in this forum are just about along the lines of what went down at the club. I guess it boils down to interpretation. In the end I think that it will not matter because I'm told it is not uncommon for someone to log more than 50 hours before the check ride anyway.

Thanks for all of the feedback!

Ramsey

[/ QUOTE ]

For me, I knew the old versus the new info; it's just my logbook still reflects the old and hasn't ever been changed.

Ramsey · September 12th, 2005, 06:35

[ QUOTE ]
You mean some folks knew the right answer and others didn't and were perhaps using information that changed 7 years ago?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sort of, there were people on both sides of the fence...

September 7th, 2005, 16:51	#3
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: PIC TIME Si

September 7th, 2005, 16:56	#4
Ramsey Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Ramstein Air Base, Germany; LH 747-400 SIM Posts: 542	Re: PIC TIME That's what I thought, but the two CFIs at the club said "The very first thing in the FARs is that you must at least have a PPL. So you can't count anything until you have met step one." My reply was that there was no order or "steps" in the FAR requirments, but in the end I let it go because they have about 4k more hours than I do.

September 7th, 2005, 18:54	#5
MidlifeFlyer Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 2,952	Re: PIC TIME [ QUOTE ] but in the end I let it go because they have about 4k more hours than I do. [/ QUOTE ]I can guarantee you that the number of flight hours (even as CFI) and even the quality of instruction being given has absolutely no relationship to the level of understanding of the FAR logging rules. [ QUOTE ] The very first thing in the FARs is that you must at least have a PPL. So you can't count anything until you have met step one. [/ QUOTE ]The easy response to that one is to pull out your FAR, hand it over and ask to be shown that "very first thing."

September 7th, 2005, 20:18	#6
Texguy Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: KAUS Posts: 850	Re: PIC TIME Ramsey I had been wondering about this, too.

September 7th, 2005, 21:10	#7
B767Driver Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,846	Re: PIC TIME [ QUOTE ] Had this discussion at the aero club today.... Can you count the solo x-country (PIC) time prior to getting your PPL towards the 50 hours of x-county required for your IFR rating? Thanks! Ramsey [/ QUOTE ] I would agree with you aero club CFI's. The PIC X/C time would not be loggable until you received your PPL. All time until then would be Solo....not PIC.

September 7th, 2005, 16:47	#1
Ramsey Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Ramstein Air Base, Germany; LH 747-400 SIM Posts: 542	PIC TIME Had this discussion at the aero club today.... Can you count the solo x-country (PIC) time prior to getting your PPL towards the 50 hours of x-county required for your IFR rating? Thanks! Ramsey

September 7th, 2005, 16:50	#2
BobDDuck Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Left Seat Posts: 5,482	Re: PIC TIME Yep

September 7th, 2005, 21:14	#8
ERJ-135 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: USA Posts: 277	Re: PIC TIME Yes per FAR 61.51 (e)(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot-(i) is the sole occupant of the aircraft........ Therefore, on the solo X-countries, the student log should show it as PIC.

September 7th, 2005, 21:16	#9
Kingairer Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Nomadic...World Wide Boobie Bungalow Bouncer Posts: 3,170	Re: PIC TIME This rule changed about 5 years Ago i guess...ERJ is right.

September 7th, 2005, 21:23	#10
B767Driver Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,846	Re: PIC TIME I suppose I should learn my regs. My last IRA applicant was in 1992...so I guess I'm a bit rusty. Thank for setting me straight!

September 7th, 2005, 21:25	#11
B767Driver Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,846	Re: PIC TIME I opened up my FAR 61....and guess what. I actually highlighted 61.51e4! It must have caught my eye at one point in time.

September 7th, 2005, 21:48	#12
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: PIC TIME [ QUOTE ] I would agree with you aero club CFI's. The PIC X/C time would not be loggable until you received your PPL. All time until then would be Solo....not PIC. [/ QUOTE ] Coming from old school, that's how my logbook reads for PPL. I've never updated it, since the time is fairly negligible all told.

September 8th, 2005, 08:26	#13
Ramsey Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Ramstein Air Base, Germany; LH 747-400 SIM Posts: 542	Re: PIC TIME The responses in this forum are just about along the lines of what went down at the club. I guess it boils down to interpretation. In the end I think that it will not matter because I'm told it is not uncommon for someone to log more than 50 hours before the check ride anyway. Thanks for all of the feedback! Ramsey

September 8th, 2005, 08:32	#14
MidlifeFlyer Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 2,952	Re: PIC TIME [ QUOTE ] The responses in this forum are just about along the lines of what went down at the club. [/ QUOTE ]You mean some folks knew the right answer and others didn't and were perhaps using information that changed 7 years ago?

September 8th, 2005, 15:32	#15
flyguy Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 2,074	Re: PIC TIME I think there are two possibilities why your CFI friends at the aero club are getting confused. #1 - they may be looking at 61.51 where it says you may only log PIC time for which you are flying an aircraft for which you are rated. If you look at that and stop reading, they are correct because a pre-private is not rated in the aircraft therefore cannot log PIC. However if you keep reading you'll find, as was pointed out above, that there is an exception made for student pilots who are flying solo. The instructors at the aero club may mot be reading far enough into it. #2 - you said they had 4000 some hours which means they probably learned this particular FAR way back in the day when you were not allowed to log PIC as a student pilot. Times have changed, and so they may not know this not only in spite of, but actually because of the fact that they have many years of experience.

September 8th, 2005, 20:57	#16
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: PIC TIME [ QUOTE ] The responses in this forum are just about along the lines of what went down at the club. I guess it boils down to interpretation. In the end I think that it will not matter because I'm told it is not uncommon for someone to log more than 50 hours before the check ride anyway. Thanks for all of the feedback! Ramsey [/ QUOTE ] For me, I knew the old versus the new info; it's just my logbook still reflects the old and hasn't ever been changed.

September 12th, 2005, 06:35	#17
Ramsey Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Ramstein Air Base, Germany; LH 747-400 SIM Posts: 542	Re: PIC TIME [ QUOTE ] You mean some folks knew the right answer and others didn't and were perhaps using information that changed 7 years ago? [/ QUOTE ] Sort of, there were people on both sides of the fence...

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