WE NEED ALPA

CollinsProLine · July 1st, 2005, 09:33

SkyWest flights from Fayetteville, Arkansas to Denver are being sprayed with insecticide. Fayetteville (XNA) serves Wal Mart's HQ. It would be nice if we had a union that could protect its pilots from blatant health risks.
.
.

SteveC · July 1st, 2005, 09:41

[ QUOTE ]

SkyWest flights from Fayetteville, Arkansas to Denver are being sprayed with insecticide. Fayetteville (XNA) serves Wal Mart's HQ. It would be nice if we had a union that could protect its pilots from blatant health risks.
.
.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wal-Mart conspiracy to poison pilots?

CollinsProLine · July 1st, 2005, 09:51

I heard the county is trying to control the Chinese Beetle problem in that area. Passengers are not aware that their seats were just sprayed with carcinogens.

flyover · July 1st, 2005, 11:22

Happens all the time on international flights, being flown be ALPA pilots. Occasionally someone gets upset, but agriculture department keeps requiring it if they have a particular infestation concern. First time I've heard of it done on a local or county basis. I don't get the connection between either WalMart HQ or Skywest being unionized and the agriculture department?

[ QUOTE ]
I heard the county is trying to control the Chinese Beetle problem in that area. Passengers are not aware that their seats were just sprayed with carcinogens.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you really want to spook them let them know about all the bacteria from the former occupants of those seats. They'll be wanting you to spray some carcinogens on them.

mpenguin1 · July 1st, 2005, 12:35

[ QUOTE ]

SkyWest flights from Fayetteville, Arkansas to Denver are being sprayed with insecticide. Fayetteville (XNA) serves Wal Mart's HQ. It would be nice if we had a union that could protect its pilots from blatant health risks.
.
.

[/ QUOTE ]

ALPA would not be able to do anything about this, appartently there is an agriculture issue and insectides have minimum health risks to people.

Cheechako · July 1st, 2005, 13:03

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

SkyWest flights from Fayetteville, Arkansas to Denver are being sprayed with insecticide. Fayetteville (XNA) serves Wal Mart's HQ. It would be nice if we had a union that could protect its pilots from blatant health risks.
.
.

[/ QUOTE ]

ALPA would not be able to do anything about this, appartently there is an agriculture issue and insectides have minimum health risks to people.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haven't you heard?? ALPA will solve all our problems and make this a perfect airline!!

flyover · July 1st, 2005, 19:45

[ QUOTE ]
It would be nice if we had a union that could protect its pilots from blatant health risks..

[/ QUOTE ]

Just curious where you stand on the whole massive irradiation at high altitude issue. Think some sun screen is going to fix it?

We're all going to die...really

aloft · July 1st, 2005, 19:57

I tend to agree that SkyWest's pilots could stand to be unionized, but not under ALPA. The conflict of interest between ALPA's mainline pilot groups and their regional brethren is too great to overlook. With dues being a percentage of wages, ALPA knows where its bread is buttered, and it's not at the regional carriers.

flyover · July 2nd, 2005, 08:49

Basically agree with all you said. Although I think ALPA is trying to do a good job reprsenting everyone, they put themselves in an impossibly compromised situation. If I were Skywest I'd go for the inhouse union to start with, as it probably has the best chance of passing.

FlyChicaga · July 2nd, 2005, 22:42

Although I think that ALPA is doing a poor job at job protection and contract improvements, you must realize that ALPA is so much more than that. Safety, scheduling, training, contract compliance, aeromedical, etc.

I think everyone is fighting to "get theirs" that they lose sight of the gains ALPA has made over the years. I think the gains in safety and other areas mentioned are worth my 1.95%.

I'm actually hoping to get more involved with ALPA safety, and want to see a push for duty and rest time changes to more conservative, and safe, requirements. I try not to get caught up in the whole "ALPA isn't getting me my money so screw them!

FlyChicaga · July 2nd, 2005, 22:45

[ QUOTE ]
I tend to agree that SkyWest's pilots could stand to be unionized, but not under ALPA. The conflict of interest between ALPA's mainline pilot groups and their regional brethren is too great to overlook. With dues being a percentage of wages, ALPA knows where its bread is buttered, and it's not at the regional carriers.

[/ QUOTE ]

You must realize that ALPA is made up of PILOTS. So therefore, ALPA supports those pilots in their decisions to gain or lose benefits.

You can't blame ALPA for concessions. Because ALPA is made up of the same pilots bitching about said concessions.

I think ALPA National should do more in informing pilots, but they can't hold their hand and make decisions for them. Trust me, if ALPA National was playing favorites for mainline, then there wouldn't be something like 3000 RJs flying mainline routes!

Doug Taylor · July 3rd, 2005, 00:05

I'm going to go broke buying Chicaga beer.

FlyChicaga · July 3rd, 2005, 01:16

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to go broke buying Chicaga beer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha, nah! How about going one-for-one with Irish Sangria!

Doug Taylor · July 3rd, 2005, 01:43

I think I feel a nasty hangover coming on already!

tonyw · July 3rd, 2005, 03:03

Ah, yes.

Airfare to LAS: $350
Hotel room: $125 a night
Irish Sangria: $6 a shot
Look on FlyChicaga and Doug's face after doing a shot of Irish Sangria: Priceless

av8trxx · July 3rd, 2005, 03:14

[ QUOTE ]
I heard the county is trying to control the Chinese Beetle problem in that area. Passengers are not aware that their seats were just sprayed with carcinogens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eagle RJs coming from XNA are also met by agents from the Dept of Fish & Game or whomever it is that does the inspections at LAX too. When I worked the ramp cargo bin inspections were routine, but not cabin. (Beetles are attracted to jet A as it's similar to their pheromones.) Spraying was confined to the cargo bins and only if beetles were found. Why would they spray the seats if no beetles were discovered in the cabin???

flyover · July 3rd, 2005, 08:08

I agree with everything in your post except for the part about ALPA doing a poor job of protecting jobs and benefits. Insolvent industries and companies can't produce rising salaries, safe jobs and plentiful benefits. I think the approach ALPA has taken in those areas is the only viable one.

ALPA made one critical, possibly fatal, error after deregulation. They agreed to a segregated industry where multiple pilot groups could fly for the same company. Now I can't for the life of me imagine why the pilots at Skywest would vote ALPA when part of the representation that's being offered is to actually suppress career growth opportunities at Skywest. At least that's one way to look at it.

I get the big picture idea that the regional pilots would be much worse off without ALPA representation. And it may well be true. But the elephant in the room is the two tier scope system, that ALPA helped to birth, that says if you choose a career at company X the only way you will ever see larger equipment is if ALPA goes away because those airplanes are reserved for the pilots at company Y, and by the way don't forget to send in those dues. And don't try to tell me there is a lot of fraternal love at mainline for their regional brothers. I tried to advocate for regional pilots at my ALPA unit. Some of the candid conversations I had with my ALPA reps would curl your hair as to feelings toward the regional units. I didn't get any of the "we're all in this together" feeling you're talking about. As I've said before, when the first scope clauses were being signed the rationale was "let those low-lifes fly that trash, we're better than that." The attitude only changed enough to get regional pilots orgainized into ALPA when they saw it had to be done. So at best, in my observation, it's a love-hate deal and basic survival instincts could tear things apart quickly.

Also agree with you that the ALPA safety effort is one of the largest benefits. Historically there is no group that has done more, it's not even close. In my early years at my legacy we had a number of pilots who wanted to leave ALPA as American had done. Everytime UAL would try to organize a national work stoppage (about twice a year) guys would be talking about splitting. My argument was always your points, safety work, aeromedical, etc. etc.

But my point about the inhouse union at Skywest is my sense that there is not a big reach for unionization there and that voting ALPA in right now is not doable. So inhouse would be a start.

MikeD · July 3rd, 2005, 12:44

[ QUOTE ]

I get the big picture idea that the regional pilots would be much worse off without ALPA representation. And it may well be true. But the elephant in the room is the two tier scope system, that ALPA helped to birth, that says if you choose a career at company X the only way you will ever see larger equipment is if ALPA goes away because those airplanes are reserved for the pilots at company Y, and by the way don't forget to send in those dues. And don't try to tell me there is a lot of fraternal love at mainline for their regional brothers. I tried to advocate for regional pilots at my ALPA unit. Some of the candid conversations I had with my ALPA reps would curl your hair as to feelings toward the regional units. I didn't get any of the "we're all in this together" feeling you're talking about. As I've said before, when the first scope clauses were being signed the rationale was "let those low-lifes fly that trash, we're better than that." The attitude only changed enough to get regional pilots orgainized into ALPA when they saw it had to be done. So at best, in my observation, it's a love-hate deal and basic survival instincts could tear things apart quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this related in any way to the days when, if you worked for American Eagle, there was no way in hell you'd ever get hired by American mainline? Or is it different?

Doug Taylor · July 3rd, 2005, 12:51

Well, the 'powers that be' like to keep various employees at one another's throat.

That way, we all work cheaper and we think we're 'getting those SOB's back'

flyover · July 3rd, 2005, 13:59

[ QUOTE ]
Is this related in any way to the days when, if you worked for American Eagle, there was no way in hell you'd ever get hired by American mainline? Or is it different?

[/ QUOTE ]

Eagle and American is a unique situation. Basically the American guys were po'd that Eagle went with ALPA instead of APA. American's personnel department decided to steer clear of that fight.

Eagle guys weren't feeling the love and let American management know that if they needed anybody to fly the bigger jets, they were available. This caused a big stir in ALPA. ALPA mainline pilots did not want to see Eagle ALPA pilots get ahead at the expense of APA, because they know very clearly that ALPA only stays "unified" as long as the regional guys know their place. And it ain't in the big jets.

But each airline is different, with it mostly being run by personnel. Of course CAL got some flow through. The whole point became moot when the only flowing was out of the mainline. Suddenly those RJ seats looked damned good. But management is quite content with the fact that ALPA has dispersed itself into so many factions, so getting flow back into those seats is hard, expecially when ALPA mainline didn't see it as an important issue during the good times.

Doug Taylor · July 3rd, 2005, 14:26

Ahh yes, the old "$80 for 80's" days.

But I certainly wouldn't characterize AA management as 'steering clear' of any interdivisional discontent.

flyover · July 3rd, 2005, 18:33

[ QUOTE ]
Ahh yes, the old "$80 for 80's" days.

But I certainly wouldn't characterize AA management as 'steering clear' of any interdivisional discontent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. In fact I think management sees scope as the ALPA gift that just keeps on giving. Hard to know the exact dynamics on hiring at an airline.

July 1st, 2005, 09:33	#1
CollinsProLine Newbie Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 20	WE NEED ALPA SkyWest flights from Fayetteville, Arkansas to Denver are being sprayed with insecticide. Fayetteville (XNA) serves Wal Mart's HQ. It would be nice if we had a union that could protect its pilots from blatant health risks. . .

July 1st, 2005, 09:41	#2
SteveC Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: GRR Posts: 8,456	Re: WE NEED ALPA [ QUOTE ] SkyWest flights from Fayetteville, Arkansas to Denver are being sprayed with insecticide. Fayetteville (XNA) serves Wal Mart's HQ. It would be nice if we had a union that could protect its pilots from blatant health risks. . . [/ QUOTE ] Wal-Mart conspiracy to poison pilots?

July 1st, 2005, 09:51	#3
CollinsProLine Newbie Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 20	Re: WE NEED ALPA I heard the county is trying to control the Chinese Beetle problem in that area. Passengers are not aware that their seats were just sprayed with carcinogens.

July 1st, 2005, 11:22	#4
flyover Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,389	Re: WE NEED ALPA Happens all the time on international flights, being flown be ALPA pilots. Occasionally someone gets upset, but agriculture department keeps requiring it if they have a particular infestation concern. First time I've heard of it done on a local or county basis. I don't get the connection between either WalMart HQ or Skywest being unionized and the agriculture department? [ QUOTE ] I heard the county is trying to control the Chinese Beetle problem in that area. Passengers are not aware that their seats were just sprayed with carcinogens. [/ QUOTE ] If you really want to spook them let them know about all the bacteria from the former occupants of those seats. They'll be wanting you to spray some carcinogens on them.

July 1st, 2005, 12:35	#5
mpenguin1 Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 10,069 Blog Entries: 5	Re: WE NEED ALPA [ QUOTE ] SkyWest flights from Fayetteville, Arkansas to Denver are being sprayed with insecticide. Fayetteville (XNA) serves Wal Mart's HQ. It would be nice if we had a union that could protect its pilots from blatant health risks. . . [/ QUOTE ] ALPA would not be able to do anything about this, appartently there is an agriculture issue and insectides have minimum health risks to people.

July 1st, 2005, 13:03	#6
Cheechako Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Wasilla, AK Posts: 976	Re: WE NEED ALPA [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] SkyWest flights from Fayetteville, Arkansas to Denver are being sprayed with insecticide. Fayetteville (XNA) serves Wal Mart's HQ. It would be nice if we had a union that could protect its pilots from blatant health risks. . . [/ QUOTE ] ALPA would not be able to do anything about this, appartently there is an agriculture issue and insectides have minimum health risks to people. [/ QUOTE ] Haven't you heard?? ALPA will solve all our problems and make this a perfect airline!!

July 1st, 2005, 19:45	#7
flyover Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,389	Re: WE NEED ALPA [ QUOTE ] It would be nice if we had a union that could protect its pilots from blatant health risks.. [/ QUOTE ] Just curious where you stand on the whole massive irradiation at high altitude issue. Think some sun screen is going to fix it? We're all going to die...really

July 1st, 2005, 19:57	#8
aloft Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Inside your OODA loop Posts: 6,812	Re: WE NEED ALPA I tend to agree that SkyWest's pilots could stand to be unionized, but not under ALPA. The conflict of interest between ALPA's mainline pilot groups and their regional brethren is too great to overlook. With dues being a percentage of wages, ALPA knows where its bread is buttered, and it's not at the regional carriers.

July 2nd, 2005, 08:49	#9
flyover Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,389	Re: WE NEED ALPA Basically agree with all you said. Although I think ALPA is trying to do a good job reprsenting everyone, they put themselves in an impossibly compromised situation. If I were Skywest I'd go for the inhouse union to start with, as it probably has the best chance of passing.

July 2nd, 2005, 22:42	#10
FlyChicaga Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 4,801	Re: WE NEED ALPA Although I think that ALPA is doing a poor job at job protection and contract improvements, you must realize that ALPA is so much more than that. Safety, scheduling, training, contract compliance, aeromedical, etc. I think everyone is fighting to "get theirs" that they lose sight of the gains ALPA has made over the years. I think the gains in safety and other areas mentioned are worth my 1.95%. I'm actually hoping to get more involved with ALPA safety, and want to see a push for duty and rest time changes to more conservative, and safe, requirements. I try not to get caught up in the whole "ALPA isn't getting me my money so screw them!

July 2nd, 2005, 22:45	#11
FlyChicaga Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 4,801	Re: WE NEED ALPA [ QUOTE ] I tend to agree that SkyWest's pilots could stand to be unionized, but not under ALPA. The conflict of interest between ALPA's mainline pilot groups and their regional brethren is too great to overlook. With dues being a percentage of wages, ALPA knows where its bread is buttered, and it's not at the regional carriers. [/ QUOTE ] You must realize that ALPA is made up of PILOTS. So therefore, ALPA supports those pilots in their decisions to gain or lose benefits. You can't blame ALPA for concessions. Because ALPA is made up of the same pilots bitching about said concessions. I think ALPA National should do more in informing pilots, but they can't hold their hand and make decisions for them. Trust me, if ALPA National was playing favorites for mainline, then there wouldn't be something like 3000 RJs flying mainline routes!

July 3rd, 2005, 00:05	#12
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 40,430 Blog Entries: 1	Re: WE NEED ALPA I'm going to go broke buying Chicaga beer.

July 3rd, 2005, 01:16	#13
FlyChicaga Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 4,801	Re: WE NEED ALPA [ QUOTE ] I'm going to go broke buying Chicaga beer. [/ QUOTE ] Haha, nah! How about going one-for-one with Irish Sangria!

July 3rd, 2005, 01:43	#14
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 40,430 Blog Entries: 1	Re: WE NEED ALPA I think I feel a nasty hangover coming on already!

July 3rd, 2005, 03:03	#15
tonyw Old Skool Join Date: May 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 15,414	Re: WE NEED ALPA Ah, yes. Airfare to LAS: $350 Hotel room: $125 a night Irish Sangria: $6 a shot Look on FlyChicaga and Doug's face after doing a shot of Irish Sangria: Priceless

July 3rd, 2005, 03:14	#16
av8trxx Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: KSAN Posts: 392	Re: WE NEED ALPA [ QUOTE ] I heard the county is trying to control the Chinese Beetle problem in that area. Passengers are not aware that their seats were just sprayed with carcinogens. [/ QUOTE ] Eagle RJs coming from XNA are also met by agents from the Dept of Fish & Game or whomever it is that does the inspections at LAX too. When I worked the ramp cargo bin inspections were routine, but not cabin. (Beetles are attracted to jet A as it's similar to their pheromones.) Spraying was confined to the cargo bins and only if beetles were found. Why would they spray the seats if no beetles were discovered in the cabin???

July 3rd, 2005, 08:08	#17
flyover Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,389	Re: WE NEED ALPA I agree with everything in your post except for the part about ALPA doing a poor job of protecting jobs and benefits. Insolvent industries and companies can't produce rising salaries, safe jobs and plentiful benefits. I think the approach ALPA has taken in those areas is the only viable one. ALPA made one critical, possibly fatal, error after deregulation. They agreed to a segregated industry where multiple pilot groups could fly for the same company. Now I can't for the life of me imagine why the pilots at Skywest would vote ALPA when part of the representation that's being offered is to actually suppress career growth opportunities at Skywest. At least that's one way to look at it. I get the big picture idea that the regional pilots would be much worse off without ALPA representation. And it may well be true. But the elephant in the room is the two tier scope system, that ALPA helped to birth, that says if you choose a career at company X the only way you will ever see larger equipment is if ALPA goes away because those airplanes are reserved for the pilots at company Y, and by the way don't forget to send in those dues. And don't try to tell me there is a lot of fraternal love at mainline for their regional brothers. I tried to advocate for regional pilots at my ALPA unit. Some of the candid conversations I had with my ALPA reps would curl your hair as to feelings toward the regional units. I didn't get any of the "we're all in this together" feeling you're talking about. As I've said before, when the first scope clauses were being signed the rationale was "let those low-lifes fly that trash, we're better than that." The attitude only changed enough to get regional pilots orgainized into ALPA when they saw it had to be done. So at best, in my observation, it's a love-hate deal and basic survival instincts could tear things apart quickly. Also agree with you that the ALPA safety effort is one of the largest benefits. Historically there is no group that has done more, it's not even close. In my early years at my legacy we had a number of pilots who wanted to leave ALPA as American had done. Everytime UAL would try to organize a national work stoppage (about twice a year) guys would be talking about splitting. My argument was always your points, safety work, aeromedical, etc. etc. But my point about the inhouse union at Skywest is my sense that there is not a big reach for unionization there and that voting ALPA in right now is not doable. So inhouse would be a start.

July 3rd, 2005, 12:44	#18
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: WE NEED ALPA [ QUOTE ] I get the big picture idea that the regional pilots would be much worse off without ALPA representation. And it may well be true. But the elephant in the room is the two tier scope system, that ALPA helped to birth, that says if you choose a career at company X the only way you will ever see larger equipment is if ALPA goes away because those airplanes are reserved for the pilots at company Y, and by the way don't forget to send in those dues. And don't try to tell me there is a lot of fraternal love at mainline for their regional brothers. I tried to advocate for regional pilots at my ALPA unit. Some of the candid conversations I had with my ALPA reps would curl your hair as to feelings toward the regional units. I didn't get any of the "we're all in this together" feeling you're talking about. As I've said before, when the first scope clauses were being signed the rationale was "let those low-lifes fly that trash, we're better than that." The attitude only changed enough to get regional pilots orgainized into ALPA when they saw it had to be done. So at best, in my observation, it's a love-hate deal and basic survival instincts could tear things apart quickly. [/ QUOTE ] Is this related in any way to the days when, if you worked for American Eagle, there was no way in hell you'd ever get hired by American mainline? Or is it different?

July 3rd, 2005, 12:51	#19
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 40,430 Blog Entries: 1	Re: WE NEED ALPA Well, the 'powers that be' like to keep various employees at one another's throat. That way, we all work cheaper and we think we're 'getting those SOB's back'

July 3rd, 2005, 13:59	#20
flyover Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,389	Re: WE NEED ALPA [ QUOTE ] Is this related in any way to the days when, if you worked for American Eagle, there was no way in hell you'd ever get hired by American mainline? Or is it different? [/ QUOTE ] Eagle and American is a unique situation. Basically the American guys were po'd that Eagle went with ALPA instead of APA. American's personnel department decided to steer clear of that fight. Eagle guys weren't feeling the love and let American management know that if they needed anybody to fly the bigger jets, they were available. This caused a big stir in ALPA. ALPA mainline pilots did not want to see Eagle ALPA pilots get ahead at the expense of APA, because they know very clearly that ALPA only stays "unified" as long as the regional guys know their place. And it ain't in the big jets. But each airline is different, with it mostly being run by personnel. Of course CAL got some flow through. The whole point became moot when the only flowing was out of the mainline. Suddenly those RJ seats looked damned good. But management is quite content with the fact that ALPA has dispersed itself into so many factions, so getting flow back into those seats is hard, expecially when ALPA mainline didn't see it as an important issue during the good times.

July 3rd, 2005, 14:26	#21
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 40,430 Blog Entries: 1	Re: WE NEED ALPA Ahh yes, the old "$80 for 80's" days. But I certainly wouldn't characterize AA management as 'steering clear' of any interdivisional discontent.

July 3rd, 2005, 18:33	#22
flyover Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,389	Re: WE NEED ALPA [ QUOTE ] Ahh yes, the old "$80 for 80's" days. But I certainly wouldn't characterize AA management as 'steering clear' of any interdivisional discontent. [/ QUOTE ] I agree. In fact I think management sees scope as the ALPA gift that just keeps on giving. Hard to know the exact dynamics on hiring at an airline.

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