B6 EMB190?

[BCTAv8r]

The first Embraer 190 is due to be delivered sometime in 2005, does anyone know what month this might happen? Will it be over the summer or perhaps just at the end of the year?

[RABIRZA69]

It was supposed to by august then got pushed back to october I think.. as soon as they come in i'll get some pics for you

[UND_Flyer]

Any idea what the minimum hours are going to be for the EMB190, or are they going to be the same as for an A320 F/O position?

[RABIRZA69]

the rumors I heard is that they were going to be the same. again this is just a rumor .. But my thought is if the reqs are the same than the payscale should be the same ... it should be interesting how this will pan out

[BCTAv8r]

[ QUOTE ]
Any idea what the minimum hours are going to be for the EMB190, or are they going to be the same as for an A320 F/O position?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish I could respond to that but it seems like Jetblue removed any pilot positions from their website. It is interesting to see a new peogram called "Collegecrew" though. It's something I wouldn't mind trying once I get in college.

[crashmbern]

we had the chief pilot of jetblue come to ERAU about 2 weeks ago. He said that the EMB 190 should be coming in september and put into service in october. He also said once the 190 comes they will be receiving one airplane every 10 days rotating back and forth between the 190 and the 320. He seemed pretty optimistic about jetblue saying they have order to bring them up to lik 440 aircraft. and the 190 is going to have the same mins as the 320 which is i believe 2500tt with 1500 turbin and at least 1000 turbine PIC.

adam

[Timbuff10]

I remember about a year ago I saw it in writing somewhere (I think on the B6 website?) that the req's would be the same. It was just going to be seniority that puts you in the respective equipment.

[RABIRZA69]

hey crashmbern was it pete russo or bushy that was down there ive been trying to get them to come to my school for the longest... well i guess thats what we get for being the cheap evil stepchild to riddle...


www.aero.edu

[FlyChicaga]

I'm going to catch heat for this, but...

JetBlue really isn't more than a glorified regional airline if you ask me. Those horrid EMB-190 rates. Yeah, major... riiight. Just like Independence Air with it's 900 CRJs and 3 A319s is a major too.

The day the EMB-190s roll onto JetBlue property is a day that this profession takes a major step backwards. 5th year Captain at JetBlue makes $77 per hour. 5th year FIRST OFFICER at Northwest on the DC-9 makes $95 per hour. Some of those DC-9s have 78 seats. 5th year DC-9 Captain at NWA is $154 per hour, so basically twice what the EMB-190 Captain at JetBlue is making. Plus, NWA has union protection, and their pilots aren't required in the job description to clean the airplane.

Yeah, JetBlue is the shiznit alright....

[skydog]

[ QUOTE ]
The day the EMB-190s roll onto JetBlue property is a day that this profession takes a major step backwards. 5th year Captain at JetBlue makes $77 per hour. 5th year FIRST OFFICER at Northwest on the DC-9 makes $95 per hour. Some of those DC-9s have 78 seats. 5th year DC-9 Captain at NWA is $154 per hour, so basically twice what the EMB-190 Captain at JetBlue is making. Plus, NWA has union protection, and their pilots aren't required in the job description to clean the airplane.

[/ QUOTE ]

NW pays their guys more than B6 so naturally everyone assumes that the B6 guys are underpaid rather than the other way around. Which airline is making money? Which airline is more in tune with the marketplace?

The industry, and thus the profession, is evolving. Unions are not going to be able to change that. So you have a choice. Accept things as they are and make career choices accordingly, or take a job with B6 and spend the rest of your career complaining about the pay. What's it going to be

[crashmbern]

yea pete russo was down here.

But on another perspective about pay. JetBlue pays overtime at 1.5 times your pay rate if you fly over 70 hours. it still doens't make up for the 190 rates, but for the 320 you could make some good money. I've heard a lot of pilots fly in excess of 80 hours every month plus the overtime make a big jump for at least 10 hours. not sure if other airlines offer overtime.

adam

[adreamer]

[ QUOTE ]
NW pays their guys more than B6 so naturally everyone assumes that the B6 guys are underpaid rather than the other way around. Which airline is making money? Which airline is more in tune with the marketplace?


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Flychicaga. Jetblue is a big regional airline to me. I don't think I can jump on B6 to Europe, Asia or South America. I can't even get Jetblue from where I live. If B6 prvide same route structures, same pay rate for pilots as NWA, and making money, I would say Jetblue does a good job for selling their products / services.

In my personal opinions and analogy, Jetblue is making money because their planes are relatively young, maybe more fuel efficient(I am not really sure). However, when it is time come to contract negotiation, for example NWA, management can said to their pilots "B6 is making money because they don't need to pay their pilots as much as you guys." The end result is most likely pilots taking the pay cut to keep their jobs. If B6 nad NWA tickets price and service are the same, which airline you think passengers would take? Probably NWA because of more options. For B6 making money, it would required trimming someone's pay and jobs cut. It would most likely affects pilots' pay rate in order to stay competitive. It is downward spiral process. I personnaly do not want to see that happen. I hope my analogy make senses.

adreamer

[NJA_Capt]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to catch heat for this, but...

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, You're right.

[ QUOTE ]
JetBlue really isn't more than a glorified regional airline if you ask me. .. Yeah, major... riiight. "

[/ QUOTE ]
If I'm not mistaken, Jet Blue is a ranked as a National airline. Not a major.

[ QUOTE ]
The day the EMB-190s roll onto JetBlue property is a day that this profession takes a major step backwards. 5th year Captain at JetBlue makes $77 per hour. 5th year FIRST OFFICER at Northwest on the DC-9 makes $95 per hour. ... 5th year DC-9 Captain at NWA is $154 per hour, so basically twice what the EMB-190 Captain at JetBlue is making.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ya know what they say about throwing rocks in glass houses. The major step backward came before you got to the game.......the Regional jet. You are sitting in the thing that has killed the future of the airlines....as far as pay is concerned. Yep. that's right...the RJ.

The "real" airlines were built on the ORIGINAL RJs, the 737 and the DC9. The pay was founded on the 73 and DC9. Now, for every RJ that pulls up to the gate, another 737 and DC9 get parked in the desert....along with its paycheck.

5th Capt Comair....$68
5th FO Comair......$41
Comair 18 year max....$113

5th Capt Express Jet....$64
5th FO Express Jet......$37
Express Jet max at year 18....$90

THOSE are what is killing the industry, NOT JetBlue.
As long as people keep slobbering over RJ jobs for $40/hr, the career pay potential will continue to decrease.
JB set its pay for the 190 right where every RJ pilot set the bar....the bottom peg.

[NJA_Capt]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I can jump on B6 to Europe, Asia or South America. adreamer

[/ QUOTE ]
You mean like SWA???
Come on guys, this is like comparing Cape Air to Delta. They are different animals.

[Doug Taylor]

JetBlue isn't making money by paying it's pilots and FA's very little. Crew costs, even at pre-concessionary rates are roughly $5-$7/ticket/hour.

Resumes are rolling in, even though you're more likely to fly an E-190 for most of your JBLU career without rights to bid over to the higher-paying A-320 so why pay crews one red cent more? If all of the lawn services are offering to skillfully trim my landscaping for $75, why would I pay $76?

Don't believe the "paradigm shift/re-alignment/market forces/new-reality" hype, yo!

[FlyChicaga]

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm not mistaken, Jet Blue is a ranked as a National airline. Not a major.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that is true. Just like ExpressJet is ranked as a major airline. But are we really considered a major airline? No.

[ QUOTE ]
Ya know what they say about throwing rocks in glass houses. The major step backward came before you got to the game.......the Regional jet. You are sitting in the thing that has killed the future of the airlines....as far as pay is concerned. Yep. that's right...the RJ.

The "real" airlines were built on the ORIGINAL RJs, the 737 and the DC9. The pay was founded on the 73 and DC9. Now, for every RJ that pulls up to the gate, another 737 and DC9 get parked in the desert....along with its paycheck.

THOSE are what is killing the industry, NOT JetBlue.
As long as people keep slobbering over RJ jobs for $40/hr, the career pay potential will continue to decrease.
JB set its pay for the 190 right where every RJ pilot set the bar....the bottom peg.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are mistaken, sir. RJ pilots are the scapegoats for the mistakes of the major airline pilots back in the late-90's. If the pilots at the majors in the mid-90's decided to assimilate the RJ flying into their own where it should have been, rather than trying to scope the regionals to death, then we wouldn't be in this predicament. Regionals were always there, with their low benefits and low pay. Minus the military guys, I don't think you can find many pilots at the majors today who didn't have a career stop at the regionals. The only difference was that in their day, the regionals were turboprops or even piston props. But now, they are jets.

There was a shakeup with the coming of the regional jet. The pilots at the majors said "Fine, let the kids fly those tiny jets." But now these tiny jets can fly flights over 4 hours in length to the destination. At ExpressJet, we are starting Houston to Guatemala in an RJ. Is it the pilots at my company or any other regional who are at fault? No. There are pilots at ExpressJet who have many years service to the company, who came on when there wasn't a jet in sight. Now we are 250+ jets strong overlapping many CAL routes. CAL had many opportunities to link the two companies, to basically create one list. But they didn't, because they didn't want those kids on their list with their small jets. Yet they turn around and "hate" us for taking their flying. HELLO, if we would have worked together and joined forces it would be OUR flying, not theirs or ours or whoever.

In this career, we all start somewhere. It's easy for you, at NJA (who I should add makes nearly the same pay as us at these industry-ruining regionals) to claim we are destroying things. No, we are not. It is not the fault of those of us who have started this career in the past 8 years, but rather the shortsightedness of those in the 90's who could have put RJs where they belong: At the majors.

So now look... the mistake of the 50-seat jet is transfering to the 70-seat and 90-seat jet. These 70 and 90 seaters are NOT regional jets. But management is selling them that way, and majors (ahem, nationals) like JetBlue are setting wages at horribly low rates because of it. The Z-scale.

I want to add: You continuously bash the regionals and how we have lowered the bar on compensation in the industry. Checking your NetJets rates on airlinepilotpay.com, I see that in my second year at ExpressJet I'll make more than your 18-year FO rates on all equipment minus the BBJ. Some could say you are replacing the good Fortune-500 corporate jobs with your low-pay fractional jets. See how ridiculous that sounds?

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

[Laurence Fishburne]

What is "Regional Jet?" How do you define a "Regional Jet?"

[/ Laurence Fishburne]

CNN is reports:

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/BUSINESS...eut/index.html

Airbus's A350 will compete with Boeing's newest offering, the 787 "Dreamliner," a regional jet.

AARRRGGGHHHH ! The 787 IS a regional jet ! EVERYTHING is a regional jet. It's all a conspiracy.

[FlyChicaga]

[ QUOTE ]
5th Capt Comair....$68
5th FO Comair......$41
Comair 18 year max....$113

5th Capt Express Jet....$64
5th FO Express Jet......$37
Express Jet max at year 18....$90

[/ QUOTE ]

5th Year Capt NJA....$60,900 per year
5th Year Capt Comair....$61,200 per year
5th Year Capt ExpressJet....$57,600 per year

5th FO NJA....$32,160 per year
5th FO Comair....$36,900 per year
5th FO ExpressJet....$33,300 per year

18 yr max NJA....$95,760 per yr
18 yr max CMR....$101,700 per yr
18 yr max XJT....$81,000 per yr

Also remember these are strictly hard rates * 75 * 12 for the regionals, not counting any profit sharing, per diem, overs (I've been over every month off reserve here), any of that extra stuff.

[Pirep]

[ QUOTE ]

But now these tiny jets can fly flights over 4 hours in length to the destination. At ExpressJet, we are starting Houston to Guatemala in an RJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are the flights the CRJ's and ERJ's have no business being on. Anything longer than 1hr45-2hrs long is not right on the passengers. Granted offering direct flights to smaller markets is very convenient for the passengers, but the longer flights fall into the category of cruel and unusual punishment. I know my a$$ is about numb after a two hour flight sitting up front in a good seat, so subjecting the passengers to anymore than that in the back is just plain wrong. I can't believe ExpressJet is doing 3.5hrs plus in the XR's. All I can say is, poor passengers. I'm surprised the pax don't strangle the flight crew on the way out the door. Oh yeah, they can't . Their bodies are too numb to move.

[FlyChicaga]

I agree. However, it's cost effective, and sadly that's all the airlines (any airline) cares about right now. What works for the pricetag. If you are only going to carry 7 people to Monclova, Mexico (I've flown there and had 7 going, 3 coming back) do you really think they'll put a 737-500 on that run? Particularly when the airport is too small to even handle that aircraft?

They are putting these jets on routes which make the company lots of money, since they are routes without competition. They can make more on some routes with 50 people in an RJ than they can on ORD-IAH with 130 people in a 737, just because of the overlapping competition on the route.

If you think about it, economically it makes sense. However from the comfort factor, it doesn't make sense.

But honestly now, is 8 hours in coach on a B777 any more comfortable than 3.5 hours in an RJ? No. I've done both, and both suck. Pretty much the only comfortable place to sit is Business First.

At least on the RJ, you get an aisle, window, or both. I've done the middle seat on a 4.5 hour flight once, and I cursed and swore the B757 up and down for a week.

[eeg]

[ QUOTE ]
The first Embraer 190 is due to be delivered sometime in 2005, does anyone know what month this might happen? Will it be over the summer or perhaps just at the end of the year?

[/ QUOTE ]

I really can't wait to see the Embraer 190 in jetBlue colors!

Alot of the JB pilots that I've spoken to say that the airline is great and love working for it. For the most part, what I've noticed is that JB pilots seem happy with the airline and that's something that alot of pilots wish they can feel towards their airline.

[NJA_Capt]

[ QUOTE ]
RJ pilots are the scapegoats for the mistakes of the major airline pilots back in the late-90's.

[/ QUOTE ]I agree

[ QUOTE ]
If the pilots at the majors in the mid-90's decided to assimilate the RJ flying into their own where it should have been, rather than trying to scope the regionals to death, then we wouldn't be in this predicament.

[/ QUOTE ]
They scoped them to death because the majors wouldn’t pay “major” pilots an appropriate rate to do so.

[ QUOTE ]
But now these tiny jets can fly flights over 4 hours in length to the destination.
At ExpressJet, we are starting Houston to Guatemala in an RJ. Is it the pilots at my company or any other regional who are at fault?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, for agreeing to fly 4+ hour legs in a “regional” aircraft. And being paid half of what a mainline pilot would do it for.
Did regionals negotiate higher paying International rates?
Were they bid as Domestic and Int’l rates?

Again….for every RJ that flys a 4 hour leg, there is a Boeing/McD being parked.

[ QUOTE ]
Now we are 250+ jets strong overlapping many CAL routes. CAL had many opportunities to link the two companies, to basically create one list.

[/ QUOTE ]
The airlines are the only ones winning…and laughing all the way to the bank. The major pilots tried to stop it….the regional pilots welcomed it. Now, with all those RJS flying, there are less major a/c. Thus, less pilots in the majors. Shorter time spent at the “major” level means less total earnings. This means the major airlines are getting the same routes, with smaller planes, and smaller PAYCHECKS.

[ QUOTE ]
at NJA (who I should add makes nearly the same pay as us …)

[/ QUOTE ]
Just for comparision, I converted my pay per hour to CA and ExprJet. On an hour per hour basis, I make $116 per flight hour and get paid the same whether I fly 10 hours/month or 60. (No per diem OT etc included of course.)


[ QUOTE ]
So now look... the mistake of the 50-seat jet ….

[/ QUOTE ]
The only mistake is that the regional pilot unions didn’t try to get the same pay for it as the mainline guys wanted.

[ QUOTE ]
These 70 and 90 seaters are NOT regional jets.

[/ QUOTE ]
Dude, as long as the manufacturer puts a sticker on the side that says xxx Regional jet, it is a regional jet. Or, we could go back to calling them commuters if you like.




[ QUOTE ]
Checking your NetJets rates on airlinepilotpay.com, I see that in my second year at ExpressJet I'll make more than your 18-year FO rates on all equipment minus the BBJ. Some could say you are replacing the good Fortune-500 corporate jobs with your low-pay fractional jets. See how ridiculous that sounds?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yea, I have informed the owner of that site of some inaccuracies, but for the most part it’s OK. As I am sure you are aware, we (our union) have been fighting to increase the bar for over 3 ½ years. Our present contract expired in 2001, and the first TA was voted down by 82%. The ensuing union election voted those officials out by over 90%.
We also have no 18 year FOs. Until 2 years ago, everyone upgraded in less than 1 year and the FO scale was a moot point. But I digress.
The difference in our department and others is that we are in a position to do something about it…..and are.

[ QUOTE ]
18 yr max NJA....$95,760 per yr
18 yr max CMR....$101,700 per yr
18 yr max XJT....$81,000 per yr

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, our 18 yr guys are on the BBJ scale, which is on the north side of 160K.


FlyCh, I hope you aren’t taking this personal…..it’s really not. But I really do hate the way the RJs such as the CR65/ERJ145 series are flying these 3+ hour legs. As a passenger, they are truly deplorable.

[NJA_Capt]

[ QUOTE ]
I really can't wait to see the Embraer 190 in jetBlue colors!

Alot of the JB pilots that I've spoken to say that the airline is great and love working for it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. I have several friends flying there and they all enjoy it.

[jonnyb]

[ QUOTE ]

So now look... the mistake of the 50-seat jet ….


The only mistake is that the regional pilot unions didn’t try to get the same pay for it as the mainline guys wanted.

[/ QUOTE ]
It really is hard to believe what the regional (jet) pilots are willing to fly for. Like we've seen in soooo many posts and heard so many young pilots say, ".....I'll do whatever I can to get into the right seat of an RJ, ASAP!" Exactly the reson the payscales are so pathetic.

[Baronman]

[ QUOTE ]
Again….for every RJ that flys a 4 hour leg, there is a Boeing/McD being parked.


[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong...Just like FlyChicago pointed out, they're not going to put a 737-5 down to Monclova, Saltillo, Veracruz, San Luis Potosi or any other of the 20-30 destinations we go to down in Mexico. If mainline thought they'd make more $ going down to Flores, Guatemala in a 737, they'd be doing it.

I don't know of any 4 hr RJ leg, but there are some shy of and slightly over 3 hours.
Example - Fayetteville Arkansas - EWR...Would you rather get on an RJ for 2-3 hrs or fly down to Houston/Dallas on an RJ and then connect on to your favorite MD80 or 737 to Newark?

RJs are expanding into new markets that DC9s, and 73's haven't and wouldn't serve. To say that an RJ is taking the place of one of them is simply not true....