B6 EMB190?

[Kingairer]

NJA, are you taking the monthly salary and dividing it by how many hours you fly to compare the rate that an airline pilot flies? Take a corporate gig where you fly 250 hours a year (not unheard of). Divide by 12 and you get 20.9 hours a month. If a corporate guy gets paid 60K a year, which most would say is not good, that would equal out to abour 240$ per flight hour. Thats not painting a realistic picture...agree?

[Kingairer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So now look... the mistake of the 50-seat jet ….


The only mistake is that the regional pilot unions didn’t try to get the same pay for it as the mainline guys wanted.

[/ QUOTE ]
It really is hard to believe what the regional (jet) pilots are willing to fly for. Like we've seen in soooo many posts and heard so many young pilots say, ".....I'll do whatever I can to get into the right seat of an RJ, ASAP!" Exactly the reson the payscales are so pathetic.

[/ QUOTE ]

In your own words, describe how much $ and what is the QOL of life of an RJ pilot..Please. And then tell me how it should be.

[kellwolf]

Have to agree with Baronman there. Airlines make more money operating 4 CRJ flights a day into smaller markets than one 737 a day. Frequency is what a lot of passengers want, so the multi-departure way to do it makes more money. If you flew a 737 2 or 3 times a day into smaller markets, you'd lose money. I don't really blame the RJ pilots, especially the ones today, Most of them ARE working to get better wages/work rules etc. Chicaga, how is the new XJT contract coming, btw? They got sold down the river in the late 90s by people that saw jets instead of TPs and quick upgrades over pay. The guys get hired at the regionals now are in a bad situation. Basically, it comes down to "Well, if you won't fly for this, there's Gulfstream and GoJets that will."

[FlyChicaga]

No, aircraft are NOT getting parked due to the RJs. If you remember correctly, Continental announced an aircraft order not too long ago for 7E7s, 757s, and I believe 737s as well. The only mainline aircraft being parked were the MD-80s, but that wasn't because of the RJ. The RJs are filling in gaps on service in off-peak times on routes served by mainline, or they are flying routes which don't necessarily require a large aircraft. Like Midland/Odessa, TX, for instance? Oh sure, put a B777 on that route!

Yes, the regionals are working to get pay upwards of where it is. Some companies are getting the bar raised, and sadly others bring it down. Are you going to start getting on the case of the pilots at United, US Airways, Delta, Continental, Northwest, Air Wisconsin, Comair, and the others which have taken pay CONCESSIONS in the past two years? Oh yes, the regionals are lowering the bar alright.

I ask you, what is wrong with someone young saying "oh man I can't wait to be an airline pilot, I'll do anything to get there!" That statement does not itself ruin the industry. Neither does taking a $22000/yr RJ job. You do realize that is nearly twice what some people make as a CFI.

I'm curious why it matters to you anyways, since you and JonnyB are in a different (supposedly "better") sector of aviation. If you had chosen to go the airline route, where do you think you'd be working right now?

I'm sorry if I'm getting a little bitchy, but it makes me angry when pilots seem to place all the blame for the ails of the industry on the shoulders of regional FOs. "You destroyed the industry when you took that job!" Yeah, right. This industry was in shambles way before any of us RJ pilots got hired. What makes me even more uptight is when pilots outside the airline industry pipe in to tell us how horrible we are, and how wonderful life is on their side of the street. When you know that if things were on a solid upswing, with great pay, QOL and benefits to go around for all, those resumes would be ready.

I should add that it's easy to take your salary and divide it by hours flown in a particular month to come up with an hourly rate, but we know that's comparing apples to oranges. You can make $200 an hour, but if you only fly 10 hours a month that isn't really that great now, is it?

Sorry to come off as such an ass. But like I said above this is a sore subject with me. I hear mainline pilots all the time bitching about the regional pilots and their low wages, but yet do nothing to offer a lending hand. Brotherhood my ass. We know that regional pilots have no leverage, since we have a union that doesn't care. Why should they, we don't bring in the dollars like a United or Continental does. So without the help of those with leverage (major pilots), we will get nowhere.

If you really think that any regional pilots want to see major jobs disappear, I'm sorry but you are an idiot. Plain and simple. We aren't here to make careers flying an RJ. Maybe a few people are. We want to move on to the majors, and have made attempts to offer "one list" and "SSL" ideas to mainline. But they will have nothing to do with us "kids." So is it really the fault of the regional pilots? Or is it because everyone looks down on us, and needs a scapegoat to blame the ails of the industry upon... so they turn to the new, low paid small jet pilots.

[FlyChicaga]

kellwolf,

The contract was voted in back in December. We go live with leg-by-leg pay next month which should really add some more $$ to the paycheck. There is a letter of agreement out right now for vote which has changed some items in the contract (medicals paid for up to $75, 10 mins extra pay for customs for all international arrivals, reserve rules) which was offered instead of the extra minutes pay off the Main Cabin Door ACARS time for block-in.

Pay rates aren't where they should be, but work rules are getting there. This is a good contract overall, we just need more $$ next time and this would be really something to shoot for.

[NJA_Capt]

[ QUOTE ]
RJs are expanding into new markets that DC9s, and 73's haven't and wouldn't serve. To say that an RJ is taking the place of one of them is simply not true....

[/ QUOTE ]
I could just as easily name you 20-30 city pairs (North of the border) where they HAVE replaced 737s with ERJ/CRJs. Cities that Piedmont/USAir served for years with 737s and DC9s are now served by USelessAirways Express. You can bury your head in the sand if you want but it has happened.

The person who puts the ERJs on the IAH-East coast cities, and LIT-EWR should be fired. 2+ is toooooooooooooooo loooooooooooooooooong in an RJ. Wow. What service. 50 pax, 1 bathroom, a pack of crackers and a Coke. Now that's living.....NOT. Yes, I would rather connect to a heavy MD80. (And that isn't a great ride either) Sorry Doug

They also need to stop putting RJs on turboprop routes. There always has, and will be, a need for short range aircraft (<150 nm).

PS....Why are "Regionals" running Mexico ops anyway?

[FlyChicaga]

So you'd prefer middle seat, still no meal (we serve meals on our teeny tiny jet, BTW), 3 bathrooms for 150 people.

Or you can fly on those carriers with no pillow, no blankets, no food whatsoever, a half-cup of soda, you get the idea. I'm actually impressed by the service on our teeny tiny jet. Warm muffins in the morning. Hockey puck sandwiches with fresh fruit or cereal and fruit at meal time. A pillow and blanket to rack out in the all-leather non-middle seat. The only thing I really dislike on the plane I fly is the pay and the overhead bins.

If service is somehow an indicator of what a pilot is worth, then on your luxury jet aircraft you all should be making upwards of $1 million a year, no?

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

[ QUOTE ]
I ask you, what is wrong with someone young saying "oh man I can't wait to be an airline pilot, I'll do anything to get there!" That statement does not itself ruin the industry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's my take. That statement itself does not ruin the industry. However, my gripe is with the " I'll do anything to get there ! " portion of that statement.

The thing is, with that attitude, more and more pilots are willing to accept a pay cut or pay freeze for, say, more aircraft growth.

More aircraft growth = faster upgrade = faster PIC time = faster time to get to the major. They think, "well, yeah the pay will be lowered/frozen, but hey, with the new jets, I won't be F/O for long !" So in their minds, the lower pay is tolerable. Because they realize, or so they think, that they won't be there for long.

Side note: I'm NOT saying XJT settled for a low contract. I think they did a good job coming up with what they did.

[ QUOTE ]
We aren't here to make careers flying an RJ. Maybe a few people are. We want to move on to the majors

[/ QUOTE ]

Betcha you didn't say that during the interview!

You just said that no one wants to make a career at regionals. And THAT's also part of the problem. Because those pilots taking pay freezes/lower pay also think, "well, I'll upgrade faster, and then after some PIC time, I'm OUTTA HERE!!!"

After 9/11, more and more pilots are deciding to stay put at the regionals. They are more comfortable with their seniority, don't wanna start over at the bottom again, etc. etc. And so as long as there are those new guys who "would do anything to fly for a major airline," pay at regionals will always be abyssmal, because they will settle for a lower pay for faster advancement opportunities.

Conditions at regionals cannot improve until the whole attitude of, "No one at the regionals wants to stay there forever" goes away.

[FlyChicaga]

[ QUOTE ]
PS....Why are "Regionals" running Mexico ops anyway?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well sir going by your strict definitions (read JetBlue national not major), then we are a major airline flying to Mexico, not a regional. Plus, at airports like Monclova, Mexico where there are no taxiways, it just doesn't make sense trying to do a 180 back-taxi in a 737-800. You know, for those 7 passengers.

[FlyChicaga]

This is exactly why I'm pissed at Comair. A regional airline, with pay already in the crapper (even though they have the highest rates) signing a concessionary contract for growth. It's sick.

If they did ask me during the interview if I planned on making a career at XJT, I would have said no. If they wouldn't have hired me, fine. At least I wouldn't have been lying. I have no plans to stay here forever. I'm not ashamed to say that. Doesn't mean I'll take this job any less seriously for the next half-dozen or more years.

There is more long-lasting negative impact of PFJ programs than any regional FO taking a job the right way will ever have.

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
If the pilots at the majors in the mid-90's decided to assimilate the RJ flying into their own where it should have been, rather than trying to scope the regionals to death, then we wouldn't be in this predicament.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only one I can think of that actually DID do this is America West. When they started out, and prior to Mesa Airlines codeshare, AmWest owned and supplied the pilots for the Dash-8s that were doing the runs to Flagstaff and such. I don't remember why it was that they got rid of the operation, unless it was in conjunction to cost-cutting in the wake of the 747 fiasco of the late '80s/early '90s.

[ QUOTE ]
But now these tiny jets can fly flights over 4 hours in length to the destination.
At ExpressJet, we are starting Houston to Guatemala in an RJ. Is it the pilots at my company or any other regional who are at fault?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ouch. That's harsh. Question, though....since I'm not familiar with XJT all that much (haven't paid much attention to Continental Express ever since the ATR-42 era), but on what NJA asked about what the route was bid for.....how strong is XJTs MEC/NC? If they're anything like Mesa's, then that might determine why certain things are being done the way they are.

[ QUOTE ]
Now we are 250+ jets strong overlapping many CAL routes. CAL had many opportunities to link the two companies, to basically create one list.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree, they could do that like America West that I described above. What's the hiccup on their end from doing this?

[Baronman]

[ QUOTE ]
2+ is toooooooooooooooo loooooooooooooooooong in an RJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guess you've never sat in a small car for >2hrs....Hate to tell you this but the Express ERJ has got the same seat pitch as the mainline 73s as well as Dougs MD80 @ Delta. It's a leather seat, oh yeah sorry no entertainment. Oh wait, the 73-5' doesn't have any either, not sure about the MD....

Yep we also do a food service and depending on the length of the trip you get trail mix/carrots/turkey or ham sandwich as well as beverage. JET BLUE and SW don't even do that and on SONG I could buy a $9.00 cesar salad. Maybe you've just been traveling in first class but newsflash * Domestic Airlines with few exceptions aren't serving food on board in Economy class.


[ QUOTE ]
Now that's living.....NOT

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok..so you'd rather spend 5 hours going from Fayettville to EWR so you could "live" in the back of an MD80 with the same seat pitch, no food, 100 more sick passengers and crying babies than spend 2 hrs in an RJ with the same seat, and less people on board?

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

[ QUOTE ]
RJs are expanding into new markets that DC9s, and 73's haven't and wouldn't serve. To say that an RJ is taking the place of one of them is simply not true....

[/ QUOTE ]

Yikes, not true ? It's very true. Sooo many cities that AA used to serve are now Eagle routes. LGA-RDU... 4 times MD80 daily became 10 ERJ daily. CLT-MIA went from MD80s to ERJs.

The worse example? Get this: Cleveland is now an ALL American Eagle city !!!!!!!!! There used to be mainline service to ORD and MIA. After 9/11 all of Cleveland is now strictly Eagle.

ERJs have replaced routes where 737s/DC9s used to operate. I'm sure that's one thing we can all agree on.

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]

These are the flights the CRJ's and ERJ's have no business being on. Anything longer than 1hr45-2hrs long is not right on the passengers. Granted offering direct flights to smaller markets is very convenient for the passengers, but the longer flights fall into the category of cruel and unusual punishment. I know my a$$ is about numb after a two hour flight sitting up front in a good seat, so subjecting the passengers to anymore than that in the back is just plain wrong. I can't believe ExpressJet is doing 3.5hrs plus in the XR's. All I can say is, poor passengers. I'm surprised the pax don't strangle the flight crew on the way out the door. Oh yeah, they can't . Their bodies are too numb to move.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey....quit your complain...

Try 13.5 hours across the Atlantic in an ejection seat, that's pain.

Then again...to be completely fair....I can't bitch either, as I was the one that signed on the dotted line for the job......

disregard all words above.

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
I could just as easily name you 20-30 city pairs (North of the border) where they HAVE replaced 737s with ERJ/CRJs. Cities that Piedmont/USAir served for years with 737s and DC9s are now served by USelessAirways Express. You can bury your head in the sand if you want but it has happened.



[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to ask a stupid question for both NJA and FlyChicaga, in regards to Chicaga's bringing up Midland/Odessa.

Allow me this hypothetical:

Let's say, for instance, that a year or two from now, Southwest decides to replace their older 737 fleet altogether. Let's assume it's going to be done within a year, and money isn't a problem, yada, yada. Let's also assume that they replace every early model 737 they have with a CRJ-900.

Will anything have really changed with their airline? I mean, same size aircraft minus 30 or so seats. But what will have really changed, operations-wise?

Again, if this is a dumbass question, just say so. But I've been out of the gig for a while, so allow me that...

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I ask you, what is wrong with someone young saying "oh man I can't wait to be an airline pilot, I'll do anything to get there!" That statement does not itself ruin the industry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's my take. That statement itself does not ruin the industry. However, my gripe is with the " I'll do anything to get there ! " portion of that statement.

The thing is, with that attitude, more and more pilots are willing to accept a pay cut or pay freeze for, say, more aircraft growth.

More aircraft growth = faster upgrade = faster PIC time = faster time to get to the major. They think, "well, yeah the pay will be lowered/frozen, but hey, with the new jets, I won't be F/O for long !" So in their minds, the lower pay is tolerable. Because they realize, or so they think, that they won't be there for long.

.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said, it all started in the early '90s with those damn "Will Fly For Food" t-shirts......what started as a joke, has been taken to heart.

[ QUOTE ]

Betcha you didn't say that during the interview!

You just said that no one wants to make a career at regionals. And THAT's also part of the problem. Because those pilots taking pay freezes/lower pay also think, "well, I'll upgrade faster, and then after some PIC time, I'm OUTTA HERE!!!"

After 9/11, more and more pilots are deciding to stay put at the regionals. They are more comfortable with their seniority, don't wanna start over at the bottom again, etc. etc. And so as long as there are those new guys who "would do anything to fly for a major airline," pay at regionals will always be abyssmal, because they will settle for a lower pay for faster advancement opportunities.

Conditions at regionals cannot improve until the whole attitude of, "No one at the regionals wants to stay there forever" goes away.

Of course, that's just what I think. I read the comments above between you and NJA Capt. I have to say, I sorta agree a bit more with what NJA is saying. I hope you don't take any offense.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've always said that the regionals have the huge potential of being a great place to work, make good money from, and even make a career out of. But no one wants to make that happen....from the management that pays nothing to the people, to the pilots that always want bigger equipment to fly.

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

[ QUOTE ]
Like I said, it all started in the early '90s with those damn "Will Fly For Food" t-shirts......what started as a joke, has been taken to heart.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup !

[ QUOTE ]
I've always said that the regionals have the huge potential of being a great place to work, make good money from, and even make a career out of. But no one wants to make that happen....from the management that pays nothing to the people, to the pilots that always want bigger equipment to fly.


[/ QUOTE ]

Never say never !

[NJA_Capt]

kellwolf[ QUOTE ]
They got sold down the river in the late 90s by people that saw jets instead of TPs and quick upgrades over pay. The guys get hired at the regionals now are in a bad situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

FlyC[ QUOTE ]

I ask you, what is wrong with someone young saying "oh man I can't wait to be an airline pilot, I'll do anything to get there!" That statement does not itself ruin the industry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ding Ding Ding…..No more calls, we have a winner!
See Kellwolf above.




[/ QUOTE ]Neither does taking a $22000/yr RJ job. You do realize that is nearly twice what some people make as a CFI. .

[/ QUOTE ]
WHAAAAAAAAAAAATT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!

You are justifying low commuter pay because “it’s more than instructing?”
That’s the logic that has doomed the industry.


[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious why it matters to you anyways, since you and JonnyB are in a different (supposedly "better") sector of aviation. If you had chosen to go the airline route, where do you think you'd be working right now?


[/ QUOTE ]
Why it matters? Because I have flown with too many retired USA and UAL Captains (my FOs) who are worried about their pensions they thought they had for the last 30 years.

Where would I be now? Your choice of several majors, where I would have been furloughed 9/11, or a 4 year Capt at JBLU.



[ QUOTE ]
I hear mainline pilots all the time bitching about the regional pilots and their low wages, but yet do nothing to offer a lending hand. Brotherhood my ass.

[/ QUOTE ]
So, you’re saying Regional pilots know more than 20-30 year major pilots? Or that you know the state of the airlines better? Surely not. But that’s how it seems.
Why should they show much brotherhood? Their livelihoods have been threatened by the MASSIVE expansion of RJs onto THEIR routes. Please don’t tell us again that they haven’t.

FlyC, The point is…..the graybeards in the majors have been around the block. They paid their dues, just like you guys are trying to do. Maybe you guys should just listen to what they have to say, instead of telling them they are full of ______. Currently, the rug is being pulled out from under them by the company on one side and the regionals on the other. The list of my FOs reads like the “Who’s who” of the airline world. 747-400, DC10, and 767/777 Capts etc… These guys should be flying the patch in their P51s, rather than having to crank out a few more paychecks after they turn 60, and worrying about what is about to happen to their pension.

[Kingairer]

[ QUOTE ]
WHAAAAAAAAAAAATT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!

You are justifying low commuter pay because “it’s more than instructing?”
That’s the logic that has doomed the industry.


[/ QUOTE ]

Based on the salary posted on airlinepilot pay, I made the same my first year at a regional then I would have at your Frac company.

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

[ QUOTE ]
Based on the salary posted on airlinepilot pay, I made the same my first year at a regional then I would have at your Frac company.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but NJA didn't say that their low F/O rates are twice as higher than flight instructing rates. I agree with NJA on that one.... "You are justifying low commuter pay because “it’s more than instructing?”
That’s the logic that has doomed the industry. "


On a side note, I saw a Continental Boeing 777 in EWR but in CONTINENTAL EXPRESS colors with a "Operated by ExpressJet Airlines" sticker near the cockpit.




















Then, I woke up.

Talk about a bad nightmare.

[NJA_Capt]

[ QUOTE ]
Guess you've never sat in a small car for >2hrs....Hate to tell you this but the Express ERJ has got the same seat pitch as the mainline 73s as well as Dougs MD80 @ Delta.

[/ QUOTE ]
Dude, in the car I can pull over to TacoMcWendyKing and grab some food at any point along the way. And maybe role down the window for some fresh air.

Who said anything about coach? I get free 1st C upgrades

Huh huh.....same seat pitch..that's fuuuunny. Got the same padding as a park bench too. Get er done

[FlyChicaga]

Ok, you missed my point completely with the instructing comment. Or you heard what you wanted to hear. Either way...

My point is that we get started in our careers by flight instructing. Then when you get to a certain point you are ready to make a move upwards in the ladder. An opportunity arises at a regional airline, which is a step in the right direction. So you take it. Just like some pilots take jobs at crappy charter companies for $50,000 a year for Falcon 50 captain when at a Fortune 100 company the same job would pay $150,000 or more.

I will tell you right now NJACapt, if you believe for one minute that the RJ caused those United and USAir pilots to end up flying past 60 in your right seat, you are a fool. It was NOT the RJ. It was POOR MANAGEMENT. That is why we are stuck where we are. Poor management. Shortsightedness. And unions which are stuck under the RLA drafted many years ago in a different era. If it were not for poor management and the RLA, things would be VERY different.

If you've ever studied human factors and accident investigation, you'll find the "swiss cheese model" where the holes of many layers must meet up to allow the accident to "pass through" and occur. Well right now in the airline industry, all the holes are lining up for this major upheaval. Saying it was the RJ that caused this mess is incorrect. It's living in the past, clinging to the past, and refusing to adjust to the new paradigm of airline travel on behalf of management and the unions.

Airlines like JetBlue are taking advantage of this change in air travel, and even moreso taking advantage of the concessionary agreements of the major airlines to offer such low pay.

[Baronman]

[ QUOTE ]
same seat pitch..that's fuuuunny

[/ QUOTE ]

Check out Seat Guru

Same seat pitch as the mainline 73 fleet, same pitch as the MD80 and .3 inches wider. Maybe if you eat a little less of the WendyBurgerTacoDonalds you'd find it more comfortable in the seat? Oh yeah, free first class upgrade.

Hey with your mentality nobody would be flying on a Citation X...I mean, why would I want to go to xyz airport, get there 10 minutes faster when there is a nice big cushy Challenger parked over there. I mean geez...5 hours in that little plane?

[NJA_Capt]

[ QUOTE ]
Or you heard what you wanted to hear.

[/ QUOTE ]
Fly CHi, you are obviously going to hear what you want to hear, so I'll not add further to this thread. I NEVER said that the RJ, nor its pilots were the ONLY cause of the current airline slump. But whether you like it or not, it HAS contributed heavily to the equation.

I will however, ask that you drop the name calling. I went out of my way to make broad generalizations without attacking you personally. I expect you to do the same. I believe that I have earned some degree of respect in this career over the last 20+ years. And I did so without calling people I disagreed with names. If that's the level you want to debate on, so be it.



Baronman:Sorry, girth isn't a factor yet. I can still fit into a single seat cockpit quite well.
[ QUOTE ]

Hey with your mentality nobody would be flying on a Citation X...... when there is a nice big cushy Challenger.

[/ QUOTE ]
No doubt. Must be some logic to it though....we've got 70 of them.
PS...5 hours is too long in this thing too.

[jonnyb]

Flychicaga, that last post is amusing, and your lack of experience and knowledge shines through. Especially the way you attempt to display superior knowledge over pilots who've been doing doing this job for a long time. It's pretty typical for a young guy like you to think you've got it all figured out, but you don't. Most of your replies have pretty much proven several of the points NJA, myself and others have been trying to make. The fact is, YOU and many others have taken positions flying smaller JETS, R-E-P-L-A-C-I-N-G routes formerly flown by the mainline, for a fraction of the pay! You are right about one thing, it is better than flight instructor pay.

You WANTED to fly a jet for an airline, so you took your current position, plain and simple. I doubt anyone hates you guys for doing what you do, I just don't agree with it, that's all.

I, like NJA capt. and others, am not, by any means, a regional airline pilot HATER! I have several friends, former students etc. doing what you do, I just completely disagree with it, that's all.

You need to pull your head out of the sand and face some facts dude.