Jet Blue seeks FAA exemption to duty day limits.

[Cosmo1999]

My question is however is it really any safter to have a 6-7 hour day of flying with a 3-4 hr sit inbetween getting you dangerously close to that 16 hr mark? The rules as they sit now are terrible. That being said i would much rather do a transcon turn with a 12 hr duty day max than having a few hours of flying with massive sits inbetween adding upto 16 hours. In an ideal world it would be a maximum of 12 hours scheduled on duty but can be extended to 14 for weather however absolutely nothing over 14 hours. Minimum of 10 hours rest every night. When you factor in the time to get to and from the hotel and wind down time and time to wake up in the morning your still lucky to get 8hrs sleep on 10 hrs rest.

[flyover]

If you are really good you can get the gold PSP as seen on SouthPark.

[tonyw]

tatersalad's gotten to level 60. He's our Keanu Reeves!

[TaterSalad]

lol, I assume that's a reference to the SouthPark, that I regretably missed this week? And do me a favor, NEVER EVER compare me to Keanu "Ted is my natural self" Reeves again. Not to mention, I can't afford a PSP, so I only know about it what I've read. A PSP would be a luxury for a CFI.

[I_Money]

[ QUOTE ]
They would block at just under seven hours a day in a 767.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow - that equals as many hours as you used to do in 2 weeks on the 727.

I personally think this is a bad idea - it is fact fatique effects us, it is not somethin you can play with.

[tonyw]

I'm all for being reasonable, but if you've got a study that shows that just being awake for ten hours is correlated with a reduction in congnitive skills, the idea of extending duty time to that long just doesn't seem like a good idea.

I think the onus is on JetBlue to prove that this is safe before it even gets talked about.

And yes, tatersalad, that's exactly what I'm talking about. You, too, could command God's troops with your PSP against Satan's minions.

[Doug Taylor]

[ QUOTE ]
JetBlue takes into account things like time zones and circadian rhythms with their application.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flyover, come on man, you haven't been retired that long as to fall for that!

Circadian rhythms? The average Joe has no idea what his circadian rhythm is, but JBLU is going to magically match a pilot to his natural (albeit unknown) circadian rhythm?

With all due respect, easy on the Aviation Leak and Space Technology magazine!

[gtpilot]

[ QUOTE ]
Wasn't there a NASA study that found just being awake for 10 hours resulted in some serious deteroriation in cognitive skills?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but a 15 minute nap mid day (mid flight?) will get you back on track! Set the auto pilot and good to go!

[kellwolf]

Unless you have to shoot the approach immediately after said nap. Experiments have been done with napping in flight, and most have shown it's a Bad Idea. It takes your body a while to get back up to speed after sleep, often up to an hour. It's the whole circadian rhythm thing again.

[Doug Taylor]

I've taken a 20 minute combat nap and it actually helps me. However, the idea of bending the rule for some flightless accountant because, for some, 20 minute combat naps work is ill.

Don't believe the hype of airlines being concerned with your bodily cycles. At another airline, we went thru a six hour "NASA Fatigue Module" where they taught us about fatigue, optimum meal times and methods of sustaining alertness. Then 100% of the companies constructed rotations broke all of the guidelines we were taught.

This is serious bull##### and it's wrong, dangerous, stupid and people are going to get killed* because of some accountant trying to reinvent the wheel.

If I get bored, I might look up the number of fatal accidents which were caused by pilot error and pilot fatigue.


Notes:
* Yup, Hoss, kilt...kilt dead.

[kellwolf]

Works for some people, hurts most. My Human Factors book is about an hour or so northwest right now, so I don't have the exact figures or web links on the studies.

[flyover]

Actually I thought circadian rythems were those things that chirped so loud at night outside the window.

My point was that JetBlue had petitioned to have this only apply to morning departures from the east coast. No back side of the clock. I've been LOL at this thread because I know that a lot of the people screaming about this now would have exactly the opposite opinion if they could fly them. It's a dream schedule if you live in the domicile, 10 days of flying a month max, home every night. And while, just like any other typical work day, you are "ready to be there" at the end, it's just not unsafe. The duty day isn't even that long.

You say it's for the accountants. But this is one of those things that I guarantee you the crews will like too. Like I said when we did it on the 727 from ATL it was the top trip.

I just think this is a tempest in a teapot. The real issue is all the "legal" trips that wear your a## out.

[MQAAord]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been LOL at this thread because I know that a lot of the people screaming about this now would have exactly the opposite opinion if they could fly them.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not me.

I can honestly say that, given the opportunity to do so, I would NOT bid transcon turns. I've done transcons, I know what they feel like, and there's no way I'd ever want to do them as a turn.

[flyover]

Well that's cool. Besides you would probably have to have 25 years of service to touch them.

[Doug Taylor]

[ QUOTE ]
But this is one of those things that I guarantee you the crews will like too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not I either.

Sounds like a 'sell job'!
Besides, I don't think many 25 year seniority Jet Blue pilots are on the seniority list.

Plus, what about the reserves? Get off a rotation, get a reduced rest layover and get called out for a NYC-LA-NYC turn the next morning?

I'm not going to bullcrap you bro, it really sounds like you're only considering the potentially positive aspects and forgetting that we're dealing with management, anemic FAA oversight and starting an avalanche of softening-up hard fought safety rules in order to benefit a small group.

[flyover]

I'm not bullcrapping you either. After 25 years of this I know what goes senior and these are good trips. Some of the original posts stated this was abusive and would lead to a union at JetBlue. I'm telling you it ain't and if JetBlue does get a union it won't be over this. 20 days off a month gets addictive.

[Doug Taylor]

So you're telling me you're going to do 80 hours in 10 days and not spend at least 5 or 6 of your off days a dehydrated zombie staring at the pretty geometric shapes on the wallpaper during the post-trip detox period?

Camaaaan, man!

Solyent green isn't natural!

[kellwolf]

Not an airline pilot (yet), but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I have to agree with Doug on this one. If the lines don't go senior (or bid at all for that fact) some reserve guys are gonna get nailed with them. What if that senior guy who DID bid the line calls in sick or goes on vacation? You get some reserve guy who might just barely be legal to fly it stuck with it. If everything goes right and the planets align, it SOUNDS like a good deal. However, I haven't seen much go as planned in the industry lately.

[shooter13]

Not an airline pilot at all but I just worked 72 hours in 7 days. I am very tired but will be just fine in the morning.

[flyover]

[ QUOTE ]
If the lines don't go senior (or bid at all for that fact) some reserve guys are gonna get nailed with them. What if that senior guy who DID bid the line calls in sick or goes on vacation? You get some reserve guy who might just barely be legal to fly it stuck with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Trust me. After 25 years of watching trips like this go to the top handful of guys, and watching FOs stay in the right seat just to fly them, I have no doubt. A reserve guy gets called in he'll say "This is great, a couple of these and I'll be done for the month!" or "I bid these all the time but I never get them!" It's a fantasy to think guys will pass these up to work 6 or 7 more days a month (at least).

[RABIRZA69]

I spoke to a couple of the pilots at Jetblue tonight at work they all had mixed emotions .. one of the senior guys was happy about it saying he would bid for it if it was for a daytime trip, a guy on reserve said it beat the 22:40 to buf and back that he was about to do , another guy thought it was absurd and a safety hazard if you throw in the equations of wind, weather, etc. etc. and another guy commented that airborne express is already doing this. i think if jetblue is going to do this it will cause a little havoc for awhile, i just dont like that word exemption, dont try to reinvent the wheel. The faa has rules for a reason albeit some of them may not make sense (on second thought most of them dont because of the way they are written) if the faa is going to grant this it should be granted to all 121 ops not just particular ones who ask for it.

my 3 cents

Rabbi

[Doug Taylor]

Heck, it only took me 10 years to figure out it's a rotten deal, will lead to more "pilot pushing" and gives the industry yet another rope to hang overselves with.

[gtpilot]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless you have to shoot the approach immediately after said nap. Experiments have been done with napping in flight, and most have shown it's a Bad Idea. It takes your body a while to get back up to speed after sleep, often up to an hour. It's the whole circadian rhythm thing again.

[/ QUOTE ]

The sleep in flight thing was a joke.

However, many many studies have been done that show mid day naps are better for your general health. And 10-15 minutes doesn't put you in deep enough to mess you up!

I also spoke with a couple of retired airline friends (they hit 60 and got booted) who were on the international routes and would have snapped up the line Jet Blue is proposing. A chance to be home every night (for non commuters) and only having to work 8-10 days out of the month. Not saying it sould pass but a lot of old timers wouldn't call it too much.

[flyover]

Yeah I know you wouldn't have liked my schedule if you could fly it from PHX. The best deal was when we were doing the SJD turns scheduled at 7:58. 9 days a month usually with maybe a shorter turn to fill up. 8 AM or so sign in. I tell you we couldn't hardly give them away they were so abusive.

[asl]

The British Airways crews aren't allowed to lay-over in Moscow, so that route from London is always done as a turn, 3 flights a day, 3.5 hours out, 1 hour turn, then 3.5 hours back again. Not too bad in good weather, but you can all imagine what the winter weather is like in Moscow - now start adding on de-ice time before departure!!

The crew I chatted with about it, said it was a really low-down on the rosta run on 767 and A320 and although it was nice sometimes, other times it was a nuisance, but it filled up their schedule nicely! So kind of mixed feelings about it.