Entry on the 45 busts FARs?

[Dazzler]

[ QUOTE ]

Why cross over the departure end as opposed to midfield?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can do that too, but then you're back into that whole discussion about whether you turn left on to downwind, or fly out above TPA, do some maneuvering and join the downwind at 45 degrees at TPA. That's already been discussed elsewhere in this thread. I'm offering an alternative way to enter the pattern.

Again I stress that you would not turn crosswind until you've cleared the departure area, just like you would not turn base until you've cleared the final approach area.

Here's another thought - doesn't crossing midfield potentially put you in the way of aircraft going around?

[mastermags]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Why cross over the departure end as opposed to midfield?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can do that too, but then you're back into that whole discussion about whether you turn left on to downwind, or fly out above TPA, do some maneuvering and join the downwind at 45 degrees at TPA. That's already been discussed elsewhere in this thread. I'm offering an alternative way to enter the pattern.

Again I stress that you would not turn crosswind until you've cleared the departure area, just like you would not turn base until you've cleared the final approach area.

Here's another thought - doesn't crossing midfield potentially put you in the way of aircraft going around?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if you overfly about 500 feet above pattern altitude... or unless they are a Harrier.

[Acadia]

[ QUOTE ]
You can do that too, but then you're back into that whole discussion about whether you turn left on to downwind, or fly out above TPA, do some maneuvering and join the downwind at 45 degrees at TPA. That's already been discussed elsewhere in this thread. I'm offering an alternative way to enter the pattern.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not referring to flying above the TPA and rejoining on a 45. I am talking about a midfield crosswind at TPA and turning directly into the downwind. If you are going to do a crosswind at TPA I think it is a bad idea to do it over the departure end and a much better idea to do it midfield.

[NJA_Capt]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm offering an alternative way to enter the pattern.

[/ QUOTE ] Crossing the departure end is like standing in the middle of the road to check for traffic. Sure, it works but its not a safe thing to do.

[ QUOTE ]
Here's another thought - doesn't crossing midfield potentially put you in the way of aircraft going around?

[/ QUOTE ]
Could there be a problem? Sure. But considering the takeoff to go around ratio is probably 100 to 1, you would be 100 times more likely to have a midair collision off the departure end than at mid field.


Mike D,
I understand your "racetrack" maneuver, but keep in mind that it is generally a military pattern which involves extreme bank angles (compared to GA a/c) and 3+ Gs. Something that is not normal for general aviation traffic.

[Dazzler]

Acadia and NJA Capt -
I understand your points. Are you simply against turning crosswind so near to the departure end of the runway, or against the 45-degree-to-upwind traffic pattern entry in its entireity?

[Acadia]

I have no idea about the 45 to the upwind entry. Personally if I am on the opposite side of the pattern I either over fly 500+ above TPA and do a normal 45 to the downwind or if the situation permits a midfield crosswind to downwind at TPA. I don’t think it really matters how you get into the midfield crosswind at TPA as long as you stay clear of the departure end of the runway (and obviously if you are doing this you are already clear pf the active side of the pattern).

[NJA_Capt]

Mainly the "crossing the departure end" scenario.

When I was actively instructing (early 90s), the AIM (when it was the Airman’s Info Manual), listed the recommended procedure, which is the 45 entry pattern, and the alternative entry. The alternative entry was to cross midfield AT TPA (not above) and turn left to enter the downwind.

Keep in mind that the term "midfield" is generic term, not a fixed point. It will be very different on a 2500' strip and a 10,000' strip. The middle of a 2500' strip doesn't leave much room to downwind prep, and departing traffic will not be anywhere near TPA at the departure end. Conversely, modern business jets can be at 3000 agl when crossing the departure end of a 10,000' runway.

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
Mike D,
I understand your "racetrack" maneuver, but keep in mind that it is generally a military pattern which involves extreme bank angles (compared to GA a/c) and 3+ Gs. Something that is not normal for general aviation traffic.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's correct, and the bank/Gs vary depending on the speed you enter initial at (would be lower for a GA aircraft), but the only point I was making with it, is like the 45 entry, it too is discussed in the AIM and hence, a recommended pattern entry; unlike some of the weird methods I'm reading here.

What we should be discussing is whether the overhead pitchout should be accomplished with the USAF standard break, or the Navy fan break (which is where the extreme Gs come in!).

Way back in my PPL days, I too was taught the midfield overfly to the downwind entry, and was advised of what "coffin corners" to look out for in the pattern, so that's another reasonable pattern entry. But this stuff of crossing midfield at TPA and extending to re-enter on a 45 that some have advocated, along with other weird methods, is beyond reasonable or recommended. Especially the title of this thread!

[SteveC]

I prefer to use opposite hand pattern (i.e. right turns instead of left turns). This way I know that there is nobody on my side of the field to worry about. I can enter the pattern any dang way I choose since no one else is on this side of the airfield. I fly the downwind and watch the opposite side of the field to eyeball all the other traffic. Then I pick my spot to shoot the gap turning base and final nicely in between opposite direction traffic. I don't make any radio calls 'cause I don't want to spook anybody. If they don't know I'm there they won't do something unexpected trying to *compensate* for me. Often I can fly the pattern, shoot the gap, and the other guys won't even know I'm there until they see me pulling off the first turnoff while they're on short final.

My version of a "Stealth" pattern.








Oh yeah............

[dakovich]

[ QUOTE ]
Just like entering the downwind leg on a 45 degree angle but instead you enter the upwind leg on a 45 - turn right to Upwind, left on crosswind over the end of the runway, left on to downwind, and continue. No over-the-field flying involved.

[/ QUOTE ]


so, basically, you enter left hand traffic for the wrong runway initially. FAA would love that if anything were to go wrong.

ie: if runway 09 was in use, you'd instead enter the 45 for downwind runway 27 (upwind 09), then you'd correct to enter traffic for rwy 09 by overflying the departure end of the active runway (crosswind 09, base 27) and THEN you'd enter downwind for 09. i'll stand firm, and just say NO NO NO

[dakovich]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I've had two instructors tell me this was OK . Of course you have to "clear" the departure runway during the Upwind leg first before turning crosswind.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is my BIGGEST pet peeve (sp?). just because someone tells you you can do something doesn't mean you should. i don't care if its a CFI, another fellow pilot, your chief flight instructor, some jackass client you're flying around, anyone! you need to analyze things for yourself, and ask the question; "is this operation as safe as it can be, or is their maybe a better, safer way to do things".

most students fly the way they were taught, be that good or bad. We as CFIs aren't immune to that unfortunate reality, and we too fly as we were taught. so if i was taught to enter the pattern at an uncontrolled airfield incorrectly as a private student then thats how i'm going to teach my students when i become a CFI. that is unless i take a proactive roll to my training at any level form student to ATP and start asking questions, and researching topics to make certain i'm doing things the best and safest way i can (and try not be afraid to work WITH the FAA/FSDO and not AROUND them to promote safety and learning).

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I've had two instructors tell me this was OK . Of course you have to "clear" the departure runway during the Upwind leg first before turning crosswind.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is my BIGGEST pet peeve (sp?). just because someone tells you you can do something doesn't mean you should. i don't care if its a CFI, another fellow pilot, your chief flight instructor, some jackass client you're flying around, anyone! .......


[/ QUOTE ]

....unless it's MikeD.

[tonyw]

[ QUOTE ]
....unless it's MikeD.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, yeah. Questioning the instruction of a guy who can fly a plane that never shows up on radar and drop a bomb down the exhaust fan of your bathroom while you're taking a dump is NOT a good idea.

Do that and you'll end up like this.

[dakovich]

[ QUOTE ]
....unless it's MikeD.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, of course...thats just a given

[Dazzler]

Latest word on the "45 degree to upwind entry" from my latest CFI =

it's a big no-no.