Entry on the 45 busts FARs?

[IndianaPilot]

Interesting topic here ! Kind of an eye opener for me....realizing there is so much varied opinion on the topic. My instructor always used to drill me....that there are only two ways to enter the pattern. One is the typical 45 degree entry, and the other option is to enter a midfield crosswind and make a left turn onto the downwind leg. I've never done anything but those two entries....been drilled to do only that.

[ananoman]

[ QUOTE ]

Moral of the story - don't annouce exactly what you're during, just say "turning a 5 mile final" or "entering a left base" etc. etc. and always make the turns in the direction of the pattern..

[/ QUOTE ] This is true. I always had to remind students this. We would sometimes go to uncontrolled fields and could listen many miles out and if we did not hear anyone then would often just turn final. You just have to remember not to say 'turning right base to final' when there is left traffic. It is also a good idea in a light plane to start your final at least 5 miles out, so you can see and make sure that no one is in the pattern. If I know that someone is there then I would usually enter on the downwind, it just depends on where they are.

For the jets, I never really cared what they do, although I have often heard them call on the right base when there was left traffic at an uncontrolled field. If they actually follow the FAR/AIM they would end up entering a downwind at 1500 AGL, and to me this is more dangerous than just turning final and having the props do what is necessary to fit in. It is not really fair, but jets are not as maneuverable and are much faster, so they do not fit into a regular pattern anyway.

[IndianaPilot]

ananoman when you say you just "turn final" are you meaning that you are flying a straight in ? or just approach on an extended base and turn final ?

[ananoman]

It really depends. If you are already on the correct side of the airport for a base, you are probably better off just entering a normal pattern. But if you are approaching from the wrong side or are set up for a final, then I would often just do a long final. For a light plane, I would recommend your final be at least 5 miles long if you enter from the wrong side (and don't say turning right base to final). This keeps you outside the normal pattern. For a jet you should probably be 7-8 miles out if you do this.

Keep in mind that if you are at 1000 feet AGL when you turn final in a small aircraft, you will be almost exactly on a 3 degree glidepath to final and will be 3 miles from the touchdown zone. So, if you want to to announce that you are on an 'extended final' you should probably be farther out than this. This is probably why a jet making a right turn onto a 5 mile final would get in trouble. They are supposed to stay 1500 AGL in the pattern and must stay on or above the VASI. So, if a jet is 5 miles out at 1500 AGL they are on a perfect 3 degree glidepath, making it a 'normal' final that should have been entered with a left turn.

If there is traffic in the pattern, then it is probably not a good idea to do this, although if I knew someone was there and had made contact with them, I might. It is not that difficult for them to just extend their downwind for spacing. It does become more problematic when multiple aircraft are in the pattern, so definately use the normal pattern in that case.

[IndianaPilot]

I see....gotcha.

[ananoman]

One other thing, since it is somewhat related. There may be times in your training when you are out late and need a landing for training purposes (unless you have your commercial, you need a landing for it to be a cross country). If touch and goes are prohibited, you can ask the tower for the option. That way you can do your landing and depart. The tower will usually do this, since they will not be heard by the noise nazis clearing you for a touch and go. Works great on those late night instrument flights. You can save alot of time if you don't have to land and pick up a new clearance.

[E_Dawg]

I usually just do straight ins

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting topic here ! Kind of an eye opener for me....realizing there is so much varied opinion on the topic. My instructor always used to drill me....that there are only two ways to enter the pattern. One is the typical 45 degree entry, and the other option is to enter a midfield crosswind and make a left turn onto the downwind leg. I've never done anything but those two entries....been drilled to do only that.

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3 ways. Overhead maneuver is also one.

[MikeD]

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Since the 45 degree entry is in the AIM it is recommened not regulatory. If you cause a accident by not using a 45 it WILL be your fault because you would not be using recommened procedures.

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Not true. Entering via the overhead is perfectly acceptable.

Big picture here, gents, is follow the written rules, communicate your intentions, maintain a visual lookout, and keep your SA up.

We're making a mountain out of a mole hill here.........

[Dazzler]

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Interesting topic here ! Kind of an eye opener for me....realizing there is so much varied opinion on the topic. My instructor always used to drill me....that there are only two ways to enter the pattern. One is the typical 45 degree entry, and the other option is to enter a midfield crosswind and make a left turn onto the downwind leg. I've never done anything but those two entries....been drilled to do only that.

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3 ways. Overhead maneuver is also one.

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4 ways - enter the upwind leg first, if you're on the "wrong side" - I prefer to do this than overfly the airport and make a left turn to downwind

[TaterSalad]

I always teach, if you're coming from the "wrong side", ie: opposite side of the downwind, to cross over midfield at least 500' above the pattern, then fly beyond the pattern, and make the descending clover-leaf entry, then back into the pattern on the 45. This ensures that at no time are you actually in the pattern, until you're making the 45 entry, keeping you from conflicting traffic. I really don't like people who make the overhead, then left turn onto downwind while descending............I had a King Air almost descend on top of me while on downwind one day, because they did exactly that!

[jdflight]

[MikeD]

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Interesting topic here ! Kind of an eye opener for me....realizing there is so much varied opinion on the topic. My instructor always used to drill me....that there are only two ways to enter the pattern. One is the typical 45 degree entry, and the other option is to enter a midfield crosswind and make a left turn onto the downwind leg. I've never done anything but those two entries....been drilled to do only that.

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3 ways. Overhead maneuver is also one.

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4 ways - enter the upwind leg first, if you're on the "wrong side" - I prefer to do this than overfly the airport and make a left turn to downwind

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Dazzler, still 3 ways. The 4th way you mention is a description of the overhead maneuver.

[dakovich]

45 degree to the downwind, or overlfy 500'(at least) midfield and return to enter the 45 to the downwind. i typically avoid the mid-field entry with a left turn to downwind.

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4 ways - enter the upwind leg first, if you're on the "wrong side" - I prefer to do this than overfly the airport and make a left turn to downwind

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and as for entering the upwind first if you're on the "wrong" side of the pattern...well, no. you've got to explain that one to me a little better, cause i've never heard/seen that performed. are you saying you'd overfly mid-field at TPA, make a right onto the upwind, then left to crosswind, and then finally another left to the downwind??? correct me if i've got that screwed up, but that just sounds nuts to me.

i think the big thing is, that the AIM really only shows the 45 degree entry to downwind in order to give some consistency when pilots are approaching to enter the traffic pattern. if there was/is only one acceptable way to enter (that being getting to a point where you can enter the downwind on the 45) then every one would enter the same way and pilots already established in the pattern could somewhat easily predict when, and where an aircraft will be that is entering into the traffic pattern. of course that is if all of us humored what the AIM is trying to suggest and didn't try and make up eleborate ways of performing what is, in my opinion, a simple cut-and-dry task.

[MikeD]

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45 degree to the downwind, or overlfy 500'(at least) midfield and return to enter the 45 to the downwind. i typically avoid the mid-field entry with a left turn to downwind.

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4 ways - enter the upwind leg first, if you're on the "wrong side" - I prefer to do this than overfly the airport and make a left turn to downwind

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and as for entering the upwind first if you're on the "wrong" side of the pattern...well, no. you've got to explain that one to me a little better, cause i've never heard/seen that performed. are you saying you'd overfly mid-field at TPA, make a right onto the upwind, then left to crosswind, and then finally another left to the downwind??? correct me if i've got that screwed up, but that just sounds nuts to me.

i think the big thing is, that the AIM really only shows the 45 degree entry to downwind in order to give some consistency when pilots are approaching to enter the traffic pattern. if there was/is only one acceptable way to enter (that being getting to a point where you can enter the downwind on the 45) then every one would enter the same way and pilots already established in the pattern could somewhat easily predict when, and where an aircraft will be that is entering into the traffic pattern. of course that is if all of us humored what the AIM is trying to suggest and didn't try and make up eleborate ways of performing what is, in my opinion, a simple cut-and-dry task.

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I don't know about the "wrong side" coment, but for the overhead pattern, it's come up initial (upwind) over the runway and pitch out into the appropriate downwind, or carry straight through if there's a downwind conflict, and head for the outside downwind to re-enter initial.

[fishrichard]

What is not true. I guess I should say using any pattern entry that is not recommened will/could get you in trouble if anything goes wrong

[MikeD]

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What is not true. I guess I should say using any pattern entry that is not recommened will/could get you in trouble if anything goes wrong

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Yeah, that's what I was getting at with my post. The 45 is one of the recommended entries.

[Dazzler]

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and as for entering the upwind first if you're on the "wrong" side of the pattern...well, no. you've got to explain that one to me a little better, cause i've never heard/seen that performed.

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Just like entering the downwind leg on a 45 degree angle but instead you enter the upwind leg on a 45 - turn right to Upwind, left on crosswind over the end of the runway, left on to downwind, and continue. No over-the-field flying involved.

[NJA_Capt]

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...left on crosswind over the end of the runway, left on to downwind, and continue. No over-the-field flying involved.

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VERY dangerous place to cross over a runway!!!! NEVER over fly the departure end of a runway. That is were the departing planes are aimed. The reason people cross over mid-field is it is the SAFEST place to cross to the other side (unless a fighter is taking off).

While crossing the departure end of the runway and looking "down" for departing traffic, you are presented with the smallest possible profile (he is nose high and you are looking down) against ground clutter. Something heading straight at you makes it hard to judge his closure rate also.

Looking down from a "mid-field," you are not in danger of the traffic "climbing" into you, and you are provided the LARGEST target to identify, and closure rate is a non-issue.

[MikeD]

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...left on crosswind over the end of the runway, left on to downwind, and continue. No over-the-field flying involved.

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VERY dangerous place to cross over a runway!!!! NEVER over fly the departure end of a runway. That is were the departing planes are aimed. The reason people cross over mid-field is it is the SAFEST place to cross to the other side (unless a fighter is taking off).

While crossing the departure end of the runway and looking "down" for departing traffic, you are presented with the smallest possible profile (he is nose high and you are looking down) against ground clutter. Something heading straight at you makes it hard to judge his closure rate also.

Looking down from a "mid-field," you are not in danger of the traffic "climbing" into you, and you are provided the LARGEST target to identify, and closure rate is a non-issue.

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Agree. Flying a crosswind-like portion of the pattern where you cross the extended centerline of the departure end of the runway is a good "coffin corner", if you will, as NJA describes.

[Dazzler]

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...left on crosswind over the end of the runway, left on to downwind, and continue. No over-the-field flying involved.

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VERY dangerous place to cross over a runway!!!! NEVER over fly the departure end of a runway. That is were the departing planes are aimed. The reason people cross over mid-field is it is the SAFEST place to cross to the other side (unless a fighter is taking off).

While crossing the departure end of the runway and looking "down" for departing traffic, you are presented with the smallest possible profile (he is nose high and you are looking down) against ground clutter. Something heading straight at you makes it hard to judge his closure rate also.

Looking down from a "mid-field," you are not in danger of the traffic "climbing" into you, and you are provided the LARGEST target to identify, and closure rate is a non-issue.

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Agree. Flying a crosswind-like portion of the pattern where you cross the extended centerline of the departure end of the runway is a good "coffin corner", if you will, as NJA describes.

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Well I've had two instructors tell me this was OK. Of course you have to "clear" the departure runway during the Upwind leg first before turning crosswind.

[MikeD]

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...left on crosswind over the end of the runway, left on to downwind, and continue. No over-the-field flying involved.

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VERY dangerous place to cross over a runway!!!! NEVER over fly the departure end of a runway. That is were the departing planes are aimed. The reason people cross over mid-field is it is the SAFEST place to cross to the other side (unless a fighter is taking off).

While crossing the departure end of the runway and looking "down" for departing traffic, you are presented with the smallest possible profile (he is nose high and you are looking down) against ground clutter. Something heading straight at you makes it hard to judge his closure rate also.

Looking down from a "mid-field," you are not in danger of the traffic "climbing" into you, and you are provided the LARGEST target to identify, and closure rate is a non-issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree. Flying a crosswind-like portion of the pattern where you cross the extended centerline of the departure end of the runway is a good "coffin corner", if you will, as NJA describes.

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Well I've had two instructors tell me this was OK. Of course you have to "clear" the departure runway during the Upwind leg first before turning crosswind.

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With the overhead maneuver, you simply fly upwind over the runway, and pitch into the appropriate downwind, no needing to cross anyone's flightpath since the key is to pitch out to roll out behind downwind traffic, or otherwise carry straight through. It's best to keep the pattern on the correct side of the runway for that airport, with some exceptions (such as practice approaches doing circle to land.....good to attempt to stay on the pattern side of the field, but not required if not otherwise restricted on the approach plate....for this though, best to keep the comm up, SA up, and pattern informed of your intentions.)

[Acadia]

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Well I've had two instructors tell me this was OK. Of course you have to "clear" the departure runway during the Upwind leg first before turning crosswind.

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I must agree that is bad advice. As it was already said that puts you much close to the climb out path of departing aircraft. Granted you can look for traffic, but stuff can always get missed. Crossing midfield reduces the risk of any conflict with a climbing aircraft.

[Dazzler]

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Well I've had two instructors tell me this was OK. Of course you have to "clear" the departure runway during the Upwind leg first before turning crosswind.

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I must agree that is bad advice. As it was already said that puts you much close to the climb out path of departing aircraft. Granted you can look for traffic, but stuff can always get missed. Crossing midfield reduces the risk of any conflict with a climbing aircraft.

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How is this any different from aircraft in closed-pattern traffic, practicing takeoffs and landings for example? They fly an upwind and a crosswind leg. Are you saying that's a dangerous procedure too?

[Acadia]

If you are staying in the pattern and climbing out you are the departing aircraft. Now add an aircraft crossing over the departure end of the runway and there is potential for a close quarters situation. Can you cross over the departure end of the runway 1000 times and have no issues? Sure. The point is that by crossing midfield you all but eliminate any conflict with a departing aircraft.

You seem to be implying that flying a normal pattern has the same risk as a crosswind over the departure end. It does not. If you are climbing out upwind it’s pretty easy for the aircraft behind you to be aware of you and they would expect you to be there. Once you turn crosswind you are getting out of the way of traffic departing behind you. Again you make it worse and add a third aircraft crossing the field over the departure end of the runway at the same time. If that same aircraft crossed midfield it would behind and well clear if just about any departing aircraft on most runways.

Why cross over the departure end as opposed to midfield?