Airspace question

[Maximillian_Jenius]

Say I'm flying thru class B airspace SFC/100. I'm at 8,000 ft. I'm on a ARTCC frequency do I need to contact the tower that owns that airspace to let them know that flying through there airspace. Or since I'm on a center freq. and under there guidance do I not need to contact said tower?

-Matthew

[hierhier]

I really do not understand your question fully but.... If flying through class B airspace at 8,000 feet you will not penetrate any class D airspace at that altitude unless the airport elevation is 7,500ft. Typical class D airspace extends from the surface to 2,500 AGL.

[Timbuff10]

Well assuming you are on a flight plan transitioning the area and following ATC instructions, you can't deviate from that unless you have an emergency and you don't have to contact the tower as long as you are on with ATC. While it is always a good feeling to hear "cleared into class B" you don't need to hear it if you are on with ATC as they will be watching out for you hopefully.

Now if you are trying to get through with VFR flight following my experience has proven that they drop you about a mile before you punch into class B so that you get to practice aerobatics to avoid busting the airpspace.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

[ QUOTE ]
I really do not understand your question fully but.... If flying through class B airspace at 8,000 feet you will not penetrate any class D airspace at that altitude unless the airport elevation is 7,500ft. Typical class D airspace extends from the surface to 2,500 AGL.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have a sectional with me but I believe that PHX class B airspace is SFC to 10.000 ft. an I believe that other class B airports are/or can be simliar.
But I'm aware that in some hell maybe all class B airspace there could be a floor of class D under class B airspace.
Dunno I haven't flown ina grip.
But I'm sure that pilot602 will refresh my memory when I fly with him this summer....


-Matthew

[Maximillian_Jenius]

...okay some clarification. Checked the PHX sectional and the airspace over Skyharbor is SFC/100 all other places class B starts at 8,000 ft. with a floor of class D below that!

-Matthew

[flyguy]

[ QUOTE ]
While it is always a good feeling to hear "cleared into class B" you don't need to hear it if you are on with ATC as they will be watching out for you hopefully.


[/ QUOTE ]
THAT IS NOT TRUE.

91.131(A)(1) "The operator must recieve an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area."

If you don't hear "cleared into class bravo" you cannot enter. As for needing to contact the tower, if you are on with approach/center or whoever else gave you the class B clearance, that will suffice. If you are supposed to talk to somebody else they will hand you off as needed, but please do not enter class B without a clearance.

[flyguy]

...unless of course you are IFR in which case you don't need to hear "cleared through class B" as ATC will tell you to go where they want you to go and you are cleared to enter whatever airspace they tell you to.

[pa31350pilot]

Just wanted to back up flyguy....you do need to hear that clearance to enter the airspace, no matter if you've been talking to them prior or not. Remember, it is your job as PIC to refuse any clearance that would put you in conflict with a reg....so if you're getting close, CYA and ask for a clearance. Plus, even if you've been with a center freq, as you approach the actual class bravo, usually you will be handed off to an approach controller for that airspace. Hope this helps!

[USMCmech]

[ QUOTE ]
While it is always a good feeling to hear "cleared into class B" you don't need to hear it if you are on with ATC as they will be watching out for you hopefully.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are on a VFR flight plan, and talking to ATC for "flight following" you may not enter class Bravo airspace without hearing "cleared to enter class B" or words to that effect. Just because you have been talking to them already dosen't count. Also, don't expect to call them 5 mile out and get clearance, call as far ahead as pratical.

If you are on a IFR flightplan, you have already recived your clearance to go through "Bravo" when you got your flight plan from clearance delivery before you took off. Then there is no need to ask.

[A300Capt]

Simply put, the tower doesn't owned that airspace, the approach/departure controller owns it. The enroute center controller will hand you off to the approach controller until clear of the class B at which point you'll be handed back off to the enroute center controller.

[MidlifeFlyer]

[ QUOTE ]

Say I'm flying thru class B airspace SFC/100. I'm at 8,000 ft. I'm on a ARTCC frequency do I need to contact the tower that owns that airspace to let them know that flying through there airspace. Or since I'm on a center freq. and under there guidance do I not need to contact said tower?

[/ QUOTE ]I assume your question is talking about a VFR flight.

No, you do not. And this is not limited to Class B. Part of ATC's job when providing flight following services is to coordinate passage through lower class airspace.

From FAA Order 7110.65 - ATC Handbook, talking about controller responsibilities:

==================================================
2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter another facility's airspace.

NOTE- The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility.

==================================================

[Timbuff10]

[ QUOTE ]
...unless of course you are IFR in which case you don't need to hear "cleared through class B" as ATC will tell you to go where they want you to go and you are cleared to enter whatever airspace they tell you to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just don't let them put you into that Crawford TFR (P-49) but yeah, that is what I was referring to. You have to be identified on ATC's radar and was given an assignment that takes you into the class B. It is always good to ask but you can't deviate from that unless you have an emergency 91.123.

I don't imagine there are too many times when you will have that happen under VFR although I got it a few times around Dallas with flight following but usually they drop you right before you are to enter.

[flyguy]

Oh, we do plenty of VFR Bravo transitions out here in the SF Bay Area. One of our practice areas is underlying bravo. Good experience for aspiring professional pilots. Usually don't have trouble getting a clearance unless it puts us through an ILS approach path or something. I've even been given a bravo clearance as a pre-private, but of course I had to decline.

[Timbuff10]

Yeah, I am discovering that after flying in many places across the country (all east of the rockies) every place seems to have their own subtle differences. From what I am hearing VFR flight following here in the Denver area is pretty much pointless as they don't seem to watch your back that well. In Florida and Dallas/Houston it was fairly reliable and they would let you into class B many times to get where you are going. Here in Denver you get laughed at if you want into Bravo.

I guess that all goes along with learning your particular home airspace.

[flyguy]

Yeah, flight following is the standard out here in Cali. If you takeoff out of class C they give it to you without even having to ask. In fact ground will ask you your destintion if you don't tell them and after takeoff they will automatically hand you off to departure. When I was a student pilot I think I'd had several solo flights to the practice area before I even knew it was called flight following. I heard the term and asked my instructor what it meant and he said "you know, when you takeoff and the tower tells you to contact NORCAL. They watch you on RADAR..."

San Francisco, LA, and San Diego each have about 50 class D and 2 or 3 class C airpors in their underlying class B. It would be hard to get around out here without class B transitions. Its good flying though!

I'll remember that though if I ever fly myself back home to CO, that I won't get my hopes set on a class B transition.

[Maximillian_Jenius]

[ QUOTE ]
I assume your question is talking about a VFR flight.

No, you do not. And this is not limited to Class B. Part of ATC's job when providing flight following services is to coordinate passage through lower class airspace.

Actually my question was concerning both IFR and VFR but more os IFR. Thanks fer all the great relies keep em comin.

-Matthew

[tonyw]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually my question was concerning both IFR and VFR but more os IFR.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're under IFR, then you're good to go.

Now, if you're flying VFR, you must hear cleared into the Bravo.

And don't assume that the controllers know when you're handed off. I got asked pointedly, who cleared you into the Bravo and I said folks who handed me off to you did. I was a little surprised -- figured he'd know.

[MidlifeFlyer]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually my question was concerning both IFR and VFR but more os IFR.

[/ QUOTE ]That's easy. When you're IFR you're =always= on a clearance and under positive ATC control, so you're cleared where ATC sends you. It's their job to take care of coordination.

[Windchill]

[ QUOTE ]
I've even been given a bravo clearance as a pre-private, but of course I had to decline.

[/ QUOTE ]

A student pilot can fly through Class Bravo airspace. Must be endorsed by your instructor though.

FAR 61.95

[flyguy]

True, but I was not endorsed, nor do I even know an instructor that would have given a student pilot a bravo endorsement.

[Windchill]

I told my instructor I wanted one of my cross-countries w/ him to be through the Balt-Wash Class Bravo so I was familiar with the S.O.P.

One reason was my family over in DE, and the quickest way would be through Class B.

So we flew to KMTN together, and then I transited the Class B airspace coming back from my long solo-x-country (didn't go through on the way over because I figured it would be easier making my stops on the way w/o the hassles of landing and taking off again) from DE. Then I finished up my x-country hours by flying back to KMTN in Baltimore.


If it's airspace your student expects to fly in/through/around once he/she has their cert., it's an instructor's job to make sure that student is prepared.

[tonyw]

[ QUOTE ]
True, but I was not endorsed, nor do I even know an instructor that would have given a student pilot a bravo endorsement.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had one. But then, when you were flying where I was, you better have one!

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
True, but I was not endorsed, nor do I even know an instructor that would have given a student pilot a bravo endorsement.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had one. But then, when you were flying where I was, you better have one!

[/ QUOTE ]

Trained for my PPL out of PHX Sky Harbor, and never had an endorsement............

[tonyw]

[ QUOTE ]
Trained for my PPL out of PHX Sky Harbor, and never had an
endorsement............

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, my curiousity is piqued now. How is that possible?

[Timbuff10]

Maybe someone is a bit older than we are led to believe. Perhaps we can substitute all these stories of A-10s with P-51s?