All Aspiring pilots!

[NJA_Capt]

This link has sparked one of the best threads to come from Flightinfo.
Flight Training/AOPA
If you only knew how many times this comes up in interviews. I'm sure this person swallowed a bitter pill that day but it should be a wake up call to many. Though it is a school's job to build your confidence for the workplace, they are doing a great disservice to their students with inflated views of their abilities and skill level. Bridge programs may be great but what happens if you have to "slide back down, so-to-speak, as this person did? I went back to instructing after 3000 hours and had a blast. Believe me, all those people you talk to in the FBOs about "skipping the CFI route" and how your "skills" are better suited to airline flying, will definitely remember you when you get furloughed, and it won't be in the positive reflection. It truly is a small world.

[JEP]

Good and more than likely a very humbling experience. The article was posted a few months back and it was good to read it again. At some point you wonder where does it cross the line from "teaching you to fly" and "teaching you to pass the test." I plan to eventually make it to the CFI route. Every CFI that I know is constantly saying that they learn more and more each and every day they fly with a student.

[TopNotch]

Dont want to sound negative, but dont be so concerned with other peoples training. Be concerned with your own. When you get in the cockpit, and your co-pilot comes from a non-CFI route, second guessing/doubting his abilities is not the proper team attitude. You both will have worked hard to get where you are. Everyone thinks their training is best. Who would say, "yeah i got to the airlines, but my training is second-rate".

Be humble, and dont put other people down, even if you think they made the wrong decision in flight training. People will do what they think is best for them. CFI's have skills, non-CFI's have skills. Girls like guys with skills!

[FlyinRyan]

I agree with the report my goal is to learn how to fly like I know how to drive or ride a motorcycle. Not just the street signs and procedures for parking and lane changes but the knowledge of operating the machine and understanding how it works and how to manage it in situations that fall outside the training manuals. That comes with experience and seat time.

I know ATP has this new training program that works with EJet to get FO's into the cockpit w/o CFI time or ratings. Its quite a bit more money and while thats a huge reason why I won't do it. I guess even if I had the cash I wouldn't because I think the role of training and being a CFI could be very rewarding and very beneficial. I want to know more than how to taxi, take off and land. I want to know how it works and why it happens this way.

And maybe this person from the story was from ATP I hope not but its possible.

But honestly I have always wondered how someone could get a job flying or even being a CFI with the limited flight hours thats required. I mean if you think of driving I see 250hrs and a CFI as about even with the time and experience level a 17 yr old driver would have. I don't think we would want 17 yr old kids teaching other 16yr olds to drive. Yet in aviation with what I see as equal risks but different we allow a person with very little seat time to train just because they passed a test.

I dunno JMO.

[JEP]

[ QUOTE ]
but dont be so concerned with other peoples training....

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa...where did that come from? I am not concerned so much where someone trained. The article referred to a CFI who want to one of the academies and then through a RJ transition course. She could not/did not find a "flying" job so she interviewed for the CFI position with minimal hour (15).

[ QUOTE ]
second guessing/doubting his abilities is not the proper team attitude....

[/ QUOTE ]

Really! That'd be a good point if it had anything to do with the article.

[ QUOTE ]
Be humble, and dont put other people down...

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, not sure where that came from either.

I believe my question, and many others is where do we draw the line between "teaching to fly" and "teaching to pass the test"?

Just out of curiousity, what is your background?

Welcome to JC!

[applepwnz]

Hmm... that's an interesting article. Something that I often think about is whether I would make a good CFI someday. I mean, I know that I can be a good pilot, but teaching is going to be interesting.

[B767Driver]

Undoubtedly, the quality of your education and the talent of the instructors you learn from will set the basis of your skill and knowledge as an aviator. However, the time you spend with an instructor and the years you spend in school are nothing more than a license to learn. Graduation is called a "commencement"...which means a beginning...not an end.

When you complete a degree program or earn a new license...this only means that you have met the basic requirements. It is up to the individual to really go out and learn...learn everything you can....read everything you can...test the limits of your knowledge.

The article discussed in this thread is tragic. The fault for poor performance should be placed on the applicant...the applicant is responsible for her own level of knowledge.

The flight school is probably to blame for inflated expectations. All the marketing seems to indicate that if you have a degree from their program and 1000hrs...you can fly 747s across the world and back. Regardless of what you actually know.....

[TopNotch]

Totally misunderstood! Sorry! I been reading too much today.

My background is nil (I am actually a graphic designer in nyc), trying to get a grasp on the way to go about training. I have a few pilot friends that work for Fedex, UPS, United.... Their comments echo what I see going on here.

I havent decided my route to a job, I just know I want to fly. I have been reading alot here, and I just see alot of people putting each other down. Because everyone thinks their route was better.

I am probally gonna go the CFI route. However, some people are not cut out for being teachers, but are good pilots. Everyone should realize that. "Skipping the CFI route" shouldnt be so frowned upon.


OKAY! that said! The article is great, however its just like any job out there... You need experience to get the job, but without the job you cant get experience. This is nothing new. CFI interships.. Future CFI's in the backseat seems like a good idea. Video/Audio recording absolutely necessary. I saw Riddles/Capt has a cool video/audio debriefing idea. More of that on the FBO's!

Alright haha! Sorry for jumping on you! Thanks for the welcome, all my posts have been responded to warmly and thoughtfully!

[NJA_Capt]

[ QUOTE ]
… from "teaching you to fly" and "teaching you to pass the test."
Every CFI that I know is constantly saying that they learn more and more each and every day they fly with a student.

[/ QUOTE ]
I couldn’t agree more!

*********************************************

[ QUOTE ]
Don’t want to sound negative, but don’t be so concerned with other peoples training.

[/ QUOTE ]Answers like this are exactly why we are concerned.

[ QUOTE ]
When you get in the cockpit, and your co-pilot comes from a non-CFI route, second guessing/doubting his abilities is not the proper team attitude.

[/ QUOTE ]A team player doesn’t come into the cockpit with the “I’m experienced with 500 hours” attitude either.

It’s not the training that is being second guessed, it’s their experience that is being second guessed.

[ QUOTE ]
You both will have worked hard to get where you are.

[/ QUOTE ]Working hard is not buying your way into the cockpit. Working hard is freight dog approaches to 100X1800RVR, serving the armed forces, and 1000 hours of Dual given. Working hard is NOT: getting your ratings as quick as possible to go directly to an airline seat with <800 hours. (With due respect to our board members who have done so).

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone thinks their training is best.

[/ QUOTE ]The difference is the people that get hired with low time and know they have much to learn, and those that think they have learned it all already.

[ QUOTE ]
CFI's have skills, non-CFI's have skills.

[/ QUOTE ]
CFIs have more skills (assets at their disposal). You know what the ATP in the left seat is? He’s a CFI to the newhire in the right seat. Who do you think will have the better disposition to pass along his/her knowledge to the FO, the person who is an “experienced” CFI or the one that worked “just as hard” as a CFI?

[CaptChris]

An Interesting article and I guess I am fortunate to be in the boring state of Ohio where we fly in and out of corn fields, use grass strips... and most of all---our flight schools in this state are comprised of small FBO's where knowlegeable people with some "real world" flying experience teach not to the PTS standards, but constantly exceeding PTS standards! Mosot flight schools here are part 61... while very few operate part 141.

This is only my first few weeks as a CFI... but when I fly with one of my three students I make darn sure to review everything the night before that we are going to do. Then when my student and I get in the airplane...he can ask me questions, I'll have answers... I can fly the manuevers, etc. What I most enjoy about being a CFI is sitting there and watching someone else fly----picking out a bad habit and saying to myself... "This HAS to be corrected." A lot of times, when I do that, I find that I am guilty of the same habits. Maybe not to the same extent, but none the less... it is a great learning experience.

No matter if I am flying a B-747 someday.... or flying 5 people around in a King Air 90.... I am certainly going to keep up with the instructing. Its a great hobby, and not a bad way for someone who loves flying to make a little cash on the side!

Nice article NJA_Capt!

[mrivc211]

[ QUOTE ]
Dont want to sound negative, but dont be so concerned with other peoples training. Be concerned with your own. When you get in the cockpit, and your co-pilot comes from a non-CFI route, second guessing/doubting his abilities is not the proper team attitude. You both will have worked hard to get where you are. Everyone thinks their training is best. Who would say, "yeah i got to the airlines, but my training is second-rate".

Be humble, and dont put other people down, even if you think they made the wrong decision in flight training. People will do what they think is best for them. CFI's have skills, non-CFI's have skills. Girls like guys with skills!

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree with your comment partly, because I flew a month with a Captain who thought I wasn't worthy to fly because I was an instructor previously and didn't come from freight. Let's just say I'm not the only one who thinks he's lost a few bolts.

Having said that, NJC isn't doing a disservice by putting this post up. He's got an opinion and he's entitled to it. His experience and age in this industry would indicate that his opinion weighs heavily and has some merit to it. I too just flew with a guy who wouldn't go missed at minimums when I called it out because he thought I was not worthy of the right seat. That guy was looney.

I think his main message was don't be fooled by these schools, and theres something said about genuine experience in an aircraft.

[DE727UPS]

"CFI interships.. Future CFI's in the backseat seems like a good idea."

I like the idea of a CFI internship, where the new learn from the old. I don't think you'll ever see it mandated by the FAA, though. I like the backseat comment, too, and some places do this.

"Video/Audio recording absolutely necessary".

I wouldn't say that. Adds minimal value in my opinion. We have all that stuff in our sims at UPS but I've never seen it actually used. Why? Cause it's not worth messing with. I'd say video is nice to have, but at what price? You want to pay ERAU prices and you can expect that sort of fluff. Some FBO's do a good job at basic flight training without all that extra stuff and at a lower price. I guess you get what you pay for. You know...a brand new 172 with a glass cockpit doesn't really fly all that differently from my 1978 152.

Here's something to think about. If you look at what the big academies cost from zero to CFI. You could EASILY buy a 70's era 172 to train in, find an experienced CFI, and KEEP the airplane at the end, cheaper than what you'd pay at some of these academies.

[TopNotch]

Keep the plane, thats a sweet idea!

My experience with video.... I learned to snowboard, got what I thought was 'really good'. Lots of time practicing. Serious backcountry stuff too. When I finally had some people video'ing me, thats when I became a 'great' snowboarder. Self critiqueing can really be useful to some one that knows how to use it, and has the ambition to truely be 'great'.

But hey! What do I know! Im just starting!

[aviategw]

This article has already been posted once on this board.

I've already been hammered on this once, but here's my $.02 worth: The author of this article was clearly not looking for the Right Stuff.

The author was not looking for a person, she was looking for a carbon based POH. Some folks on this board have pointed out that the article gave the impression that the applicant was attempting to excuse her lack of knowledge. I didn't read the article this way. If that truly was the case, then she didn't deserve the job. As I said, that's not how I read this article, however.

The girl had shown boatloads of motivation to finance and finish the program that she was enrolled in. If I was the person responsible for hiring, I would be a lot more interested in motivation than rote memorization.

[SteveC]

If anybody is interested in reviewing the discussion from the first go-around, here's the link.

[pilot602]

[ QUOTE ]
Dont want to sound negative, but dont be so concerned with other peoples training. Be concerned with your own. When you get in the cockpit, and your co-pilot comes from a non-CFI route, second guessing/doubting his abilities is not the proper team attitude. You both will have worked hard to get where you are. Everyone thinks their training is best. Who would say, "yeah i got to the airlines, but my training is second-rate

[/ QUOTE ]

Spoken like a non-CFI ...

[NJA_Capt]

[ QUOTE ]
...I flew a month with a Captain who thought I wasn't worthy to fly because I was an instructor previously and didn't come from freight. Let's just say I'm not the only one who thinks he's lost a few bolts.

[/ QUOTE ]That is rather odd....

Another strange twist is how most people regard "freight dogs" as renegade/cowboy pilots. I have heard Captains say over and over how they like flying with former freight dogs. They have real world experience with (civilian) ATC and weather and have excellent instrument skills.

[ QUOTE ]
I think his main message was don't be fooled by these schools, and there's something said about genuine experience in an aircraft.

[/ QUOTE ]That's about it. Make sure you are well rounded, by not having all your (CRJ) eggs in one basket. you never know when you might have to fall back on other "skills."

[I_Money]

[ QUOTE ]

The girl had shown boatloads of motivation to finance and finish the program that she was enrolled in. If I was the person responsible for hiring, I would be a lot more interested in motivation than rote memorization.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, a motivated professional pilot would have studied and poses a great amount of information - not being able to pass an simple test, based on the FAA PPL Written simply proves she does not have a good understanding even at the PPL level, and is unlikely to be a safe pilot. It seems to me she learnt how to pass tests, not fly!

[aviategw]

True, a very valid point. There really is no excuse for not knowing the private pilot level of knowledge if applying for a CFI position.

However: The girl showed determination. That level of determination should at the very least get the applicant a second chance. I would rather have the motivation than the technical knowledge. Technical knowledge can be acquired. Typically, motivation can not.

I would want her on my staff if I was running a flight school.

[NJA_Capt]

[ QUOTE ]
The girl showed determination. That level of determination should at the very least get the applicant a second chance. I would rather have the motivation than the technical knowledge.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't get me wrong, motivation is a great thing....BUT...This isn't an either/or issue, the applicant needs BOTH to fulfill the qualifications. A motivated CFI without basic knowledge is worthless (for a flight school). Motivation alone of a STUDENT is great.

PS....I guess I missed this thread the first time around

[Mr_Creepy]

[ QUOTE ]
Another strange twist is how most people regard "freight dogs" as renegade/cowboy pilots. I have heard Captains say over and over how they like flying with former freight dogs. They have real world experience with (civilian) ATC and weather and have excellent instrument skills.


[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen both sides. I've flown with freight dogs who I trusted my life to, literally. On the flip side there were some freight dog captains I flew with who scared me spitless!

I agree with the renegade/cowboy image though - it seems to be common with freight dogs. Not that there's anything wrong with that!

[FlyChicaga]

In my experience (or lack of )...

Normally when starting at a regional airline, everyone there doesn't have any 121 experience. Everyone is NEW. Some may have more hours, or more instrument approaches, or more dual given. But in terms of flying passengers on the line, everyone is on the same page. Since everyone is inexperienced then, the difference between those successful in the long-term versus those who fail is recognizing the lack of experience. I know when I got hired with my first company, I knew a lot about the airplane systems-wise already. But otherwise I didn't know squat. Even after 1000 hrs of 121 turbine time, I still am learning a LOT every day. I'm still inexperienced to a large degree.

The day you believe you are experienced and know it all, is the day you fail. Because you never know it all, and you always have something to learn.

ASIDE:

To be honest, I think of instructing as a much more important job than an airline pilot will ever be. Why? Because you are developing the rudementary skills which will carry a pilot through their career. These basic skills are the flying skills they will use when flying 200+ people around the world someday. Remember the law of primacy? I know that I still remember (and use) knowledge and skills I learned at U of I in my every day work. If my instructors had not done their job from the beginning, teaching me to FLY (not be a systems operator), they would have done my career a huge disservice.

Even though I didn't instruct much, I'm still big on it. I honestly believe instructing is treated improperly by the ENTIRE industry.