My regional airline hiring disaster story

[ERfly]

You don't even work there and got a call from the CP. I never got a call from him when I resigned. He may seem nice, but I caution you against his bad side.

[PeanuckleCRJ]

CapeAir requires at least an ATP and around 2000 hours.

[PCL_128]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah. Pinnacle. Gulfstream. Can you name a few more? I went to the Gulfstream site and it's not really clear who's hiring guys directly out of Gulfstream. I think people might want to know.

From thier website:
RULE #1: "AIRLINE PILOT TRAINING IS NOTHING WITHOUT AN EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITY."

I'll try to remember that.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might want to quit your job at UPS then. I know of several GIA pilots that left Gulfstream and went directly to UPS several years ago. You can also scratch off the following airlines from your "approved" list since GIA pilots work at all of them:

Delta, Airtran, Continental, American, UAL, NWA, FedEx, SWA, Comair, ASA, Pinnacle, Commutair, Trans States, Mesa, JetBlue, Spirit, and the list goes on.

Former GIA pilots work at every airline in this country. Contrary to what you want to believe, hiring board don't give a crap about Gulfstream. Back before 9/11 Gulfstream was losing about 20 Captains a month to other airlines. They weren't going to little bottom-feeders either. I remember flying with several Captains pre-9/11 that had to decide between the job offers of 3 different majors. It was quite common. It's been several years since I've worked at GIA, but I doubt their pilots are having any trouble finding work at career airlines.

[Kingairer]

You liked this uniform didnt ya!

[kellwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
Former GIA pilots work at every airline in this country. Contrary to what you want to believe, hiring board don't give a crap about Gulfstream. Back before 9/11 Gulfstream was losing about 20 Captains a month to other airlines. They weren't going to little bottom-feeders either. I remember flying with several Captains pre-9/11 that had to decide between the job offers of 3 different majors. It was quite common. It's been several years since I've worked at GIA, but I doubt their pilots are having any trouble finding work at career airlines.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine. Still doesn't change the fact that GIA's program cheapens the industry. If they're so successful, how long will it be before every airline is toting the "pay us $30K for the privilige of flying right seat in our 1900s." I know I wanna get paid less than the stocker at Home Depot for that, especially after I've spent money to be IN that position. Oh well, at least I wouldn't be flying for free. With 318 hour of turbine (straight from their website, BTW) and mins for commercial ratings, I bet they ARE having a hard time find jobs since they don't meet the mins for most airlines. Granted, GIA isn't gonna say that. I know I'd be royally pissed to drop $30K for a little over 300 hours and still fall short of mins for hiring. They could always get a VFR freight job, though.

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
I know I'd be royally pissed to drop $30K for a little over 300 hours and still fall short of mins for hiring. They could always get a VFR freight job, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

They'd still need 500 TT for the VFR freight gig. Kell, I sense a bad moon rising in regards to the "how long until" question and how the race to the bottom is going. I've long thought that the more and more these cheapening programs happen, it's going to keep sending the message to management that pilots feel they are not worth much and have no qualms about it. This is exactly the message guys like Howell and Ornstein love to hear, since it's mor money in the pocket for them. They know the allure of a white pilot shirt and three stripes, and they treat their pilot force the way they do because they can......because the pilot force lets them. Not really much bargaining power for QOL improvement when there's 50 PFTers, resumes in hand, waiting to do your job for much less.

Maybe I'm completely wrong too. Maybe these CEOs are simply pure corporate geniuses, since they are able to take advantage of the pilot suckers........

[PCL_128]

[ QUOTE ]
Fine. Still doesn't change the fact that GIA's program cheapens the industry. If they're so successful, how long will it be before every airline is toting the "pay us $30K for the privilige of flying right seat in our 1900s."

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I don't disagree with you there. I've just been reading this board for a few years now and finally had enough of the lie that GIA pilots don't get hired anywhere. That's the popular myth, but it doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

What you need to understand is that most of the people that go to Gulfstream are completely ignorant of the way things work in the industry. I know that was the case with me at the time. I didn't know about this website or flightinfo.com back in '99 when I was looking for a flight school. I didn't know flight instructors or anyone else that could give me advice on GIA. For all I knew, paying for training was just the way it worked. When you have a half dozen recruiters from different flight schools trying to sell you "bridge programs" and "FO fast-track courses" and the like, then you just get the idea that this is how it works to get started in aviation. That's why sites like this and flightinfo are so great. Newbies that stumble across these sites can find out ahead of time that going to a place like GIA is not the best thing for the industry or themselves. Blaming the newbie pilots that don't know any better is just ridiculous though.

Go ahead and start the flames. I've been taking them for years on flightinfo. I'm used to it by now.

[BrianNC]

[ QUOTE ]
What you need to understand is that most of the people that go to Gulfstream are completely ignorant of the way things work in the industry.

[/ QUOTE ]
When I first came here a few months ago one of my first questions was about Gulfstream because I didn't see it listed as one of the flight schools and couldn't figure out why. I had been reading about them and it seemed like a pretty good deal to me (in my ignorance). I was pretty much crucified for my questions and responses when all I was doing was aking questions and making comments because I really didn't understand.

To make a long story short, if I had made that choice and had never come to this forum, I wouldn't have known any difference. It seemed like just another paid training program to me.

So I agree with you, blaming newbie pilots that don't know any better is ridiculous. The reaction I got almost drove me from this forum.

[PCL_128]

[ QUOTE ]
When I first came here a few months ago one of my first questions was about Gulfstream because I didn't see it listed as one of the flight schools and couldn't figure out why. I had been reading about them and it seemed like a pretty good deal to me (in my ignorance). I was pretty much crucified for my questions and responses when all I was doing was aking questions and making comments because I really didn't understand.

To make a long story short, if I had made that choice and had never come to this forum, I wouldn't have known any difference. It seemed like just another paid training program to me.

So I agree with you, blaming newbie pilots that don't know any better is ridiculous. The reaction I got almost drove me from this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

There you go guys, a perfect example. If BrianNC hadn't found this site, then he likely would have gone to GIA because he didn't realize there was anything at all unusual about it. As he said, it "seemed like a pretty good deal." Attacking guys that made a mistake in ignorance doesn't make any sense.

Good luck on your career path BrianNC.

[Kingairer]

There are no excuses now. Now that GIA doesnt do intial training everyone should have passed through the hands of at least a few instructors. They can then see why their CFIs are doing it, to get paid doing what they like and to gain experience. Not paying to fly. I mean really, who has 30K just sitting around AFTER theyve paid for their intial ratings.

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
The reaction I got almost drove me from this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what will it take to drive you from the forum, then?

[DE727UPS]

"I know of several GIA pilots that left Gulfstream and went directly to UPS several years ago."

I'm not sure what your point is. I believe Gulfstream (unfortunately) does get folks hired from their program. At the same time, their program is a slap in the face to the industry. I'm sure guys come up through the program and go to the left seat at Gulfstream. After 1000 PIC in a 1900, they are qualified to work at UPS or any of the airlines you mention. I've never doubted that Gulfstream guys get hired. I've slammed their program for what I feel is the direction it takes the career expectations of a new hire F/O. That you should pay for your JOB and be a revenue source for your airline.

However, since you personally know stremers at UPS, perhaps you could name names for verification? I once knew a women at UPS that was from Gulfstream. She was so talkative (and really a nice person) that I wasn't able to get a work in edgewise to find out what her opinion was on the Gulfstream programs effect on the career expectations of new hire F/O's.

[PCL_128]

[ QUOTE ]
I've slammed their program for what I feel is the direction it takes the career expectations of a new hire F/O. That you should pay for your JOB and be a revenue source for your airline.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems to me that you aren't just slamming the program, you are slamming the pilots that go through the program. That is what I take issue with. I ask again, how can you blame these pilots for going to GIA when they are new to the industry and don't know any better? I just don't understand the reasoning there.

[ QUOTE ]
However, since you personally know stremers at UPS, perhaps you could name names for verification? I once knew a women at UPS that was from Gulfstream. She was so talkative (and really a nice person) that I wasn't able to get a work in edgewise to find out what her opinion was on the Gulfstream programs effect on the career expectations of new hire F/O's.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't name names even if I wanted to now. It's been several years and I didn't know the guys very well. They all blend together now. So many people were leaving pre-9/11 for the majors that it was hard to keep track of who was going where. I don't remember of too many people going to UPS though. Maybe 2 or 3 left for UPS while I was working there. Most of them were going to United and American. Ask around though, I'm sure you can find them.

[DE727UPS]

From another forum...

"I sure hope it isn't the 250 hr guys flying them."

You are making reference to Gulfstream pilots flying EMB120's.

"No, the guy he's talking about is actually from GIA. His father was a SCAB at CAL and is the IAH asst chief pilot now. That's how he got the job."

Your reference to how the GIA guy got hired at CAL.

Yet you take issue with me slamming GIA? Sounds like you're doing some slamming of your own.

I think you are asking me how I can blame guys for going to Gulfstream as newbies who don't know any better. Kinda like guys who believe the DCA/PanAm/CAPT marketing stuff. Ya know what....maybe I shouldn't blame them. Let's blame it all on the folks trying to mislead the newbie and relieve them of their hard earned loan money. That's fine. In the end, paying for a JOB is wrong. Don't blame those that fall for it, blame those who promote it and keep trying to make it the status quo. That works for me....

PCL 128. If I'm not mistaken, you did the Gulfstream program. Do you support it or not? It's hard to tell from your comments.

[PCL_128]

[ QUOTE ]
From another forum...

"I sure hope it isn't the 250 hr guys flying them."

You are making reference to Gulfstream pilots flying EMB120's.

"No, the guy he's talking about is actually from GIA. His father was a SCAB at CAL and is the IAH asst chief pilot now. That's how he got the job."

Your reference to how the GIA guy got hired at CAL.

Yet you take issue with me slamming GIA? Sounds like you're doing some slamming of your own.

[/ QUOTE ]

No slamming here, just stating facts. The guy did get his job because his father is a CAL SCAB that is now the IAH Chief Pilot. That's a fact, not a slam. As for the EMB comment, again it's not a slam. It's just a question of experience. From what I've heard about the Brasilia, it's not a very forgiving airplane. Pilots with just 250 hours TT probably shouldn't be flying it. The 1900 on the other hand flew just like a big general aviation airplane. Very forgiving, very easy to learn. I did fine flying it when I had low time, and so do 90% of the other guys. I've never flown a Brasilia, but from what I've heard, it's not a plane for a low-time pilot to be flying.

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are asking me how I can blame guys for going to Gulfstream as newbies who don't know any better. Kinda like guys who believe the DCA/PanAm/CAPT marketing stuff. Ya know what....maybe I shouldn't blame them. Let's blame it all on the folks trying to mislead the newbie and relieve them of their hard earned loan money. That's fine. In the end, paying for a JOB is wrong. Don't blame those that fall for it, blame those who promote it and keep trying to make it the status quo. That works for me....

[/ QUOTE ]

Good, that's the point I'm making. The people to be mad at are the marketing scumbags that lie and distort the facts to make these programs look so appealing. The newbie pilots are not at fault, because they just don't know better. They are receiving tons of misinformation from dozens of marketing people that make these programs seem great. Gulfstream's management is the real villain here, not the pilots that fall for their scheme.

[ QUOTE ]
PCL 128. If I'm not mistaken, you did the Gulfstream program. Do you support it or not? It's hard to tell from your comments.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I certainly do not support the program. I support the pilots that went to GIA however. The program is terrible for the profession, and I'm sorry that I ever had anything to do with it. The program is the problem, not the pilots that go there out of ignorance. That is my big point here.