Professional flight instructors

[naunga]

Hey all,

Some questions / thoughts for you all. Especially the CFI's.

I guess my biggest question is where are the professional CFI? That is people whose sole reason for getting into flying was to be a CFI and create high quality pilots.

What are your opinions regarding this?

I'm very much leaning towards this career track, and would like some insight into it.

Thanks.

Naunga

[Polarbear]

As a side business I actually want to open my own flight school. That is why I'm getting my A&P first(bring down maintenance costs by doing my own work). From my understanding, there is just too little money in instructing. Although I would say anyone getting in aviation for the $$$ though is nuts. Do what you think will make you happy.

[DE727UPS]

I don't think there are many of what you are talking about. You'll find a few here and there in management at the larger colleges...like ERAU. A few places that pay CFI's quite well and train foreign students...like IASCO. A few that just hang around flight schools of all sizes. But if it were me, I'd buy a plane and get involved in free-lance in a big way. Basically, starting your own small school.

[GregCollins2]

I am one and I love it. I also make good money and own two airplanes.

[Bluto]

Greg, from your website it looks like you are living my dream! I've wanted to buy a Champ or Tailwheel Cessna and instruct in it for years. How'd you get started? Sorry, for the thread hijack.

[GregCollins2]

I bought a Champ, put up a web site, and the rest is history!

[dakovich]

again, sorry to get off thread...but how has the insurance on the champ and the other aircraft been?? is it really as bad as everyone says it is when you use your own aircraft for instruction?

[GregCollins2]

I do not carry "Instruction and Rental" insurance on either airplane. Believe it or not, insurance is not required by law. I own both airplanes out right (no loans) and I simply self insure. I carry CFI insurance for my own liability. If a student damages an airplane I pay out of pocket for the repair (hasn't been a problem so far). The best quote I have had on the Champ was $8000.00 for $27,000 in hull. I paid $6000 for $42000 in hull on my Warrior. I am very selective about who I allow to solo the Champ (solo isn't required for a tailwheel endorsement) and they understand that there is no medical coverage available from me if they are injured while flying the airplane. The renters wouldn't be covered for any damage to the airplane anyway, so they are not at any greater risk, only me. I do encourage my students to buy renters insurance for their own protection.
It helps that I can do my own work, and that I do not have loans on the airplanes. Also, the insurance on the Champ would require that "solo" renters have 100 hours in make and model, pretty much useless.

[Kloader]

Hey Greg. Looks like you have a really great business going.....something a lot of DIY folks, myself included, would like to emulate. Thanks for frankly answering the insurance cost question earlier. That seems to be the working strategy around these parts for small operators. My question is how your relations are with local airport considering you are operating a commercial operation. Do you own your own hanger, and if so, does your zoning allow you to maintain your aircraft or anyone elses, and also use the hanger for a flight training location? I hope I am not prying. I have my A&P/IA and aspire to be a CFI, but one of the biggest
hurdles to my goals is getting a small hanger at the airport that is zoned properly so I don't upset the Oregon Dept of Aviation. Most of my work is 'through the fence', (because no one likes the local FBO's but if I was to include flight instruction someday, its seems like I would need a legitimate foundation (literally). Thanks in advance for your feed back. Cheers.

[braidkid]

As to what DE727UPS eluded to there are a few companies that pay instructors very well.

I had an offer for a job with IFTA (International Flight Training Academy) in Bakersfield, CA. The pay started at $35k/year with full medical and dental. It was a 9 to 5 job (no kidding) with weekends off and 2 weeks vacation/year. Pay tops out around $60k. I know IASCO is the same way.

Downside is it's all foreign students.

[Bluto]

Some people consider the students at IFTA the "upside". While they are all foreign, they are also extremely bright, highly motivated, and well-prepared. Personally, I can handle a little language barrier when the students show up ready to learn. I think the downside is living in Bakersfield!

[stuckingfk]

[ QUOTE ]
Some people consider the students at IFTA the "upside". While they are all foreign, they are also extremely bright, highly motivated, and well-prepared. Personally, I can handle a little language barrier when the students show up ready to learn. I think the downside is living in Bakersfield!

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you ever had to handle the "little language barrier" while teaching?

I haven't, but I have dealth with friends and that is hard enough, I can't imagine trying to teach someone that isn't comprehending english.

[CapnJim]

It's not that bad, really! I had an Italian who spoke very little English, and I speak even less Italian! Still, I managed to solo him, sign him off for a checkride, and send him back to Italia as a pilot. He managed to learn English and aviation at the same time, which is a testament to his motivation, attitude, and intelligence.

The first few hours were the most difficult though, but not insurmountable with a fair degree of patience and understanding on both sides. Lots of sign language, pointing, numbers on fingers, and laughter. It was a great experience!

As for people who make primary instruction thier life, I found they fall in to two categories: One, those whose aviation careers have otherwise failed due to accident or ignorance and are bitter, egoistic milkers who do no one, not even themselves, any good. Two, those who have made thier living through other means and instruct for the challenge and reward of it. These are the finest CFI's you're likely to meet, and if you can find one for your training, hold on with both hands. The two will not be difficult to discern from each other-- the former will try to make you feel like an idiot, and the latter will try to make you feel like Chuck Yeager.

I fell in to the middle, and largest category: the aspiring pilot trying to buld time. The quality of these folks is directly proportionate to the quality of person they are outside the cockpit. If they don't give a crap, have an ego or self-esteem problem, it will be obvious by the way they speak to you on the ground. Likewise, if they really care, and try to do thier best at everything even if it's on a pretty low rung of the ladder, you will know that as well: you'll get eye contact, mutual respect, and sense a desire on their part to help you an any way they can.

OK this post is gettin' a little long.... Later!
<snip!>

[DE727UPS]

"I do encourage my students to buy renters insurance for their own protection."

I'm very interested in how you operate as I've danced around the insurance cost issue for years, and, currently don't offer my plane for rental because of it.

If one of your Champ renters did damage your plane and they did have their own renters insurance. Would you have to sue the renter to collect? Or would you just blow it off and fix the plane yourself?

It sounds like you have the Warrior set up differently for insurance? How come?

Also, have you set your business up as a LLC or corporation?

[GregCollins2]

The Warrior is leased back to a flight school in Tennessee.
I have only had one wreck with an airplane, and that was a Private Pilot that took my Warrior off the runway at KTYS (no, I wasn't in the airplane, and he wasn't my student). He did about $10,000 in damage and the airplane was grounded for 2 months. He voluntarily paid $2,000, the rest came out of my pocket. Again, I am very selective about who I let solo in the Champ and the Flightstar. I expect most renters to pay me what they can, if they are responsible for the damage. I do have renters that I know cannot afford to pay me anything, and I simply assume the risk. If I have someone that really wants to solo the Champ,that I don't trust, then they can purchase the AOPA rental insurance and make me the named insured for the duration of their solo work, there is no need to sue the renter to recover. I even have students that I do not charge at all, I simply teach them because I want to help them out and share the joy! I have done business this way for 20 years and have never had a problem.
I am incorporated as an LLC. I personally own NOTHING! I get along very well with the airport manager, and he does not care what any of the hanger renters do in their hangers as long as we pay our rent and don't take work from him. I am not associated with the airport authority in any way, and the airport does not endorse me. My maintenance work is strictly limited to ultralights and experimentals, a market the airport manager/A&P has no interest in what so ever. I am also the only tailwheel instructor in the area which means I do not compete with anyone else and I don't step on anyone's toes.
I should also mention that I am 40, and I have made almost all of my money as a general contractor, and NOT from aviation.

[DE727UPS]

"they can purchase the AOPA rental insurance and make me the named insured for the duration of their solo work"

I once had an insurance agent tell me that renters insurance wasn't supposed to ever be "primary coverage". It was only to take care of the owners deductible. If AOPA is cool with what you are doing, then the way you are doing it is something I should think about.

How much of a hassle was it to form an LLC and how does it impact the way you operate?

[GregCollins2]

The LLC is fairly simple to set up in Georgia, simply file the paper work, pay the yearly fee and taxes, and that's it. There is really no effect on how I operate other than that the LLC purchases and own's my tools, airplanes, etc. The LLC is much easier to set up and maintain than a corporation, but affords the same protections, and a number of tax advantages.
As far as the renters insurance is concerned. I do not purchase the insurance, so it is not my primary insurance. The renter is the buyer and AIG does not care about anything except what dollar amount the renter wishes to have paid on his behalf in the event of an accident. The "non-owned airplane" insurance policy offered by AOPA does not place any restrictions on what airplanes can be flown, and what , if any insurance, the aircraft owner must have. In fact, the renter's insurance company is no more exposed than if I did carry Instruction and Rental Insurance since they will not have to pay any more than the face value of the policy either way. I have disussed this with AIG and they have no problem with it. I have also had an attorney review the renter's policy. Again, I am the one at risk, and I accept, and can afford the risk. If I worried about all of the liability, I wouldn't be in this business at all.

[DE727UPS]

Thanks for your replies. There is a small, one man, flight school at KCOE, with a 172M. I was thinking of asking him if he'd let me add my A152 to the "fleet" and maybe bring on some free-lance CFI's. If it works out, maybe I'll pay Doug for a banner ad at Jetcareers.

[GregCollins2]

Can't hurt to ask. I know that I would like to have someone lease another aircraft to me.

[Kloader]

Greg. Much appreciated!

[dakovich]

thanks for being so open with all the info

[GregCollins2]

No problem, hope it helps.

[slamma1906]

not a lot of $$,

[shinysideup]

Back to the original questions:

“I guess my biggest question is where are the professional CFI? That is people whose sole reason for getting into flying was to be a CFI and create high quality pilots.

What are your opinions regarding this?

I'm very much leaning towards this career track, and would like some insight into it.”

The most professional flight instructors I have been the pleasure to work with were just that… a pleasure to work with. I have worked on ratings and worked with the other also and like one of the earlier posts said they are easy to pick out.

I have great respect for all of you who are willing and able to make flight instructing a long time profession, I was instructing for the purpose of moving up through the field, and always hoped to do the most professional job possible. But even through 2 years of instructing at what I consider a great flight school, I did find myself being discouraged, and frustrated with flight instruction. I would love to make it a career, but as most know it is very hard to make a decent living on flight instruction…or even pay the rent most month. There are benefits though. Flying on the corporate side of things now I see them now. For example, flying 4-8 hours a day in an environment where you must be on your toes creates one h$ll of a pilot. I have seen this, in myself and in others who I have flown with. Remember, “When one teaches, two learn.”

And since no one has brought this up, I am sure there are people out there looking for a good professional instructor to hire for their training; here are a few tips for the aspiring pilot.

Part 61
At a small mom and pop place, the methods that worked best for me. Look deep into the paper and pencil marks on the schedule. There are two easy ways to find someone good. The first is look to find someone who is always booked. Then look to see if they have repeat customers/students/clients. If they do their students are very good sources of information about the character of the instructor. Plus you may find someone else in your shoes to study with or even fly with when you build some of that x-country time for instrument or commercial ratings. The down side to these instructors is that it may be hard to disseminate between great instructors, and flight [censored], who are willing to fly with anyone just to build time quicker to be off and on to the next job.

The other thing to look at a smaller place is for instructors who have a line through their schedule until late afternoon, usually working another full time job, and love to fly and they have a passion to instruct. During my private training I had the honor to fly with two of these people (moved from one city to another) and they were great people to work with.

As far as freelance instructing, I have not flown with or worked with any of these aviators, so don’t have a reference but Greg’s operation looks great, and I have heard great things through the grape vine about him, and others like him.

Part 141
Granted most of the academies will assign an instructor to you. If you do have a bad one and try to change it you will get a line like “All of our instructors are standardized and teach the same.” Remember you are still the customer, and even if they are offering you the “guaranteed” whatever, your ratings and your training are the most important part of your career. What you learn first will stick with you.

If you do have the opportunity to pick your instructor in a 141 environment, your best resource for information is the other students. They are in the same shoes you are and at a lot of these pilot factories, you can find many people who have flown with this instructor or that, and they will give you an honest opinion. I was able to use this method on a few occasions, and ended up with great training. On the other hand if you cannot chose who you fly with you may get stuck with the pilots who are CFIs as a means to an end.

Good luck, I hope this helps



Doug, I am sure others have opinions on this topic, might be included in another thread somewhere else in the boughs of JC but maybe this should be the start of another

[GregCollins2]

If you are looking for a career as a flight instructor the best jobs are at the university and college level. Here at Georgia Aviation and Technical College the instructors are state employess and only work from 8am to 5pm weekdays. They are paid a salary of $40,000 which goes a long way in Eastman, Georgia. They receive full benefits and state retirement. The instructors also get extreme discounts when adding helicopter or fixed wing ratings to their certificates, and they get 4 hours per month of free flight in any school aircraft. The school also operates a King Air 90 and a Citation V, both of which are flown by the flight instructor. Not too bad.
The only draw back is POLITICS, and thats enough to keep me self employed.