English Proficiency of Foreign Pilots... Scary?

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/inv...icenglish.html

Don't read the article though, that ruins it !

Watch the video, it's the first of the three blue colored links there.

You do have to see a 30 second ad, but it's Delta Air Lines, so no one minds, right


That Air China guy could use english proficiency courses.

[Doug Taylor]

Whenever you have students who don't have a very good grasp of the English language, be careful. I'm one of the 'lucky few' that took an 'all expenses unpaid trip' to Oklahoma City to discuss the differences between 'commercial-grade English" and "ATP-grade English".

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I hear ya!



You can clearly hear the frustration in the controller's voice. I mean, he spoke in *clear* english to " follow the aircraft on taxiway Juliet. " That Air China guy just wouldn't get it

And the near miss of the French pilot?

It gets really scary. It's obviously a direct safety-related issue.

Well, add 'language-barriers' to the list of stress-causers for controllers and pilots, alike.

[dakovich]

Doug, i remembered you mentioning about the kind of crap you can get yourself into with foreign students and the language barrier. not long after reading your comments i had a Polish guy sign up with me for lessons and i couldn't understand a thing he was saying...i had to pass him onto another CFI.

its tough telling a student you can't train them because their English is so bad...kind of like the guy in his 50's whose packed on a few pounds (few is being nice), and he doesn't understand why he can't use the C150 to do his training.

[Doug Taylor]

Let's put it this way. A certain airline was having a large number of difficulties talking on the radio in southern California.

The straw that broke the camel's back, so to say, was when there was a loss of seperation between a unnamed 747 and a United 747 on approach to LAX.

They looked at each incident, and traced everything from their airline training all the way down to people that had signed 8710 forms (basically what the CFI endorses to indicate that a particular applicant is fully qualified for the practical (flight) examination).

Most of those applicants came from one flight school, the one I worked for prior to Skyway.

About four of "several" pilots involved in the incidents came from a few CFI's at the flight school. One of the CFI's happened to be me.

Long story short, hilarity ensued, but all turned out ok in the end.

[JEP]

JFK is indeed a bad place for this problem. I frquently listen to JFK Tower/Ground on LiveAtc.Net. You can hear the frustration on a regular basis from the controllers. It really gets hairy when the wx gets bad.

[Doug Taylor]

Well, at least according to the FAA definition that was being thrown at me that one fateful morning in Oklahoma City, is that there's 'read, speak, understand' English for everything from PPL to CPL, but when it comes to certifying an applicant for an ATP checkride (which really doesn't require a CFI endorsement, I think), there's ATP-quality "read, speak, understand"ing of the English language.

It's unwritten, but does anyone think I'd have won if I decided to pull their own regulations out and argue the point? Especially when they were saying "Hey, after hearing your testimony, we're just going to give you a unofficial verbal 'slap on the wrist', have a nice career"

Basically, there's things that'll fly for a PPL that certainly would cut the mustard for a ATP.

[FlyChicaga]

What's even more interesting though is when controllers overseas (or across the borders in Mexico and Canada) get frustrated because of American English-brevity. I've flown with guys who talk down deep in Mexico or in Montreal like they are on New York Center.

It's about proper english all around on the radio. And patience and understanding when it comes to accents and differences across borders. There is a point where the communication disturbance is dangerous. But remember that the difficult time Lufthansa is having following the quick directions from a New York controller at JFK, you'd have the same difficulty following instructions from a German controller at Frankfurt.

[applepwnz]

[ QUOTE ]
What's even more interesting though is when controllers overseas (or across the borders in Mexico and Canada) get frustrated because of American English-brevity. I've flown with guys who talk down deep in Mexico or in Montreal like they are on New York Center.

It's about proper english all around on the radio. And patience and understanding when it comes to accents and differences across borders. There is a point where the communication disturbance is dangerous. But remember that the difficult time Lufthansa is having following the quick directions from a New York controller at JFK, you'd have the same difficulty following instructions from a German controller at Frankfurt.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought that a German ATC in Frankfurt is supposed to speak English as well? I don't understand how these people can be SO bad at English. I mean, I could probably understand at least basically ATC instructions given in French or Spanish or something.

[Windchill]

This feels appropriate:

A German pilot is flying his Fokker into Hamburg airport, and says, in German:
“Tower, this is Lufthansa 712 requesting clearance to land.”

“Lufthansa 712, please make your request in English.”

“Tower, I am a German pilot, for a German airline, in a German plane, at a German airport. Why, in God’s name, can I not speak German?”

A British Airways pilot cuts in:
“It’s because we won the bloody war!

I'm sure it's been heard before, but always a classic.

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

[ QUOTE ]
It's about proper english all around on the radio. And patience and understanding when it comes to accents and differences across borders. There is a point where the communication disturbance is dangerous. But remember that the difficult time Lufthansa is having following the quick directions from a New York controller at JFK, you'd have the same difficulty following instructions from a German controller at Frankfurt.

[/ QUOTE ]


Here is an example of Frankfurt's Ground and Tower controllers talking to a United 747. Audio via Channel 9 ATC feed onboard United Airlines.

You can understand them, but it's still 'awkward.'

http://www2.flightlevel350.com/~admi...1107043708.wmv

[aloft]

The language thing is also a good "out" for the CFI; two of the 9/11 hijackers trained in the very same flying club in San Diego that I finished my PPL in; I flew the same airplanes they did. One of the club's CFIs finally bounced em both, told em to come back after they'd had some English training. From what I hear, he and a number of other folks pretty much crapped their pants after the attacks when it came to light that those two were involved.

[C650CPT]

I can tell you from my experience over here in the Middle East that not only is English as the Aviation language poor but so is the major issue of standardized communication. If ICAO could get everyone saying the same thing to mean the same thing then a pilot could fill in the blanks caused by the language barrier of accents. I hear all sorts of "english" over here and it aint what I learned.

Jim

[Mr_Creepy]

Jim I agree. The caribbean controllers use expressions like "line up and wait" and "say level leaving." Gets confusing.

I was at a networking LEADS group yesterday and met these folks that have started a new business - helping people to "improve their speech" and one of their focuses is "losing an accent" so they are better understood in business. Hey if it works in business why not aviation?

Personal Best Speech

Looks pretty interesting. I might even sign up!

[C650CPT]

Excellent idea!
My favorite over here is "taxi hold position rwy 34" what they really mean is taxi to and HOLD SHORT of rwy 34. You have to really pay attention over here its sooo different its dangerous. We get the line up and wait alot here. I've heard controllers argue with pilots ( say its not true ), and say things like "I gave you good instructions, you must listen to me, you bad pilot." Of course part of the culture over here is that they like to argue, converstations take on a very strong tone many times.

Jim

[aloft]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course part of the culture over here is that they like to argue, converstations take on a very strong tone many times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm...I might like that!

[GreenDayPilot]

It's one thing to hear about these kinds of things... it's another thing to work in these situations on a daily basis.

I work at an academy in Tucson with exlcusively foreign students from China and Korea. It's amazing what a huge difference it makes when English is not your first language. I've had the privelage of working with domestic students and I miss having them everyday I work here. Out of the 100 students we have, there's only a handfull of students that can carry on a conversation in English. The rest of them have trouble. It's not just the radio calls... it's also very hard to teach someone when English is there second language. You have to define a word or two almost every time you say something.

Ah! I'm just glad I'm leaving here next week... it was fun and all... but I'm a CFI, not an ESL instructor.

[adreamer]

Greendaypilot, I assume that you work for Pan AM? I can probably deal with them because I speak Mandarin <- about 1 billion people speak that language around the globe.

From my experience, if I am tired, I can't speak English well. Even my wife has hard time to understand me. My first PPL instructor suggest me to do the followings:

1. Think what you are about to say.
2. Say it slowly and announciate every word.
3. If got confused with ATC, ask repeat the message with slower pace.


adreamer

[tonyw]

It isn't just guys who are non-native English speakers that have problems.

For example, for the past few weeks, I've been dealing with some people from New Zealand. I can honestly say that even though everyone involved is a native English speaker, just the different accents and the different phrasing causes some confusion.

[GreenDayPilot]

[ QUOTE ]
Greendaypilot, I assume that you work for Pan AM? I can probably deal with them because I speak Mandarin <- about 1 billion people speak that language around the globe.

adreamer

[/ QUOTE ]

No, thankfully I am NOT from PAN scAM... I went to ATP and now I'm on my last 2 days at IATA. I work with 55 guys from Shanghai, China... After 10 years of English study, a large amount of them still have trouble holding an english conversation or communication in English... Just today, a student read back "hold short runway..." and he still taxied into position. It's a big problem, especially when they never practice their english unless they are in the airplane. Other than that, they speak chinese as much as possible.. including during ESL classes... They're great guys, but not so great English speakers

[adreamer]

just wondering what is IATA?

It would be scary if I am on the short final and this dude pull his plane onto runway. I would be


adreamer

[planejay]

International Airline Training Academy (I think).

[Windchill]

So the question is, do you sign them off for checkrides when they have real difficulty speaking a required language?

[aloft]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a big problem, especially when they never practice their english unless they are in the airplane. Other than that, they speak chinese as much as possible.. including during ESL classes...

[/ QUOTE ]

That's just arrogance/indifference to training. Were I an instructor at such a program, I'd make a rule with my students that anyone caught speaking something other than English while in the program gets to contribute toward a beer fund or something.

[av8trxx]

It wouldn't be so bad if it were just an accent. There are several times this month alone I have heard foreign a/c @ LAX that simply didn't understand what was being said! I followed behind a China Eastern MD-11 where it was necessary to repeat the same thing over and over with each transmission. The Approach guy sounded like he was talking to a 2 yr old. Once on ground, they were asked a question and all they replied with was "Roger". They obviously didn't get what was being asked by their tranmissions. Ground basically cleared the way for them all the way to the south complex as it was apparent they barely had a clue between the entire crew. Another time my Capt told me about an Aeroflot flight. The controller kept giving him instructions, but he did not understand. He got to the runway and pretty much told the tower, 'we take off now' and proceeded to do it! Needless to say tower figured this guy might not do as requested so they told everyone else to give way to Aeroflot. He went on his merry way and departed