What Would You Do?

[GaTechKid]

I'm interested in how fellow instrument pilots would respond to a situation I was presented with at my instrument checkride. Here's the scenario:

You are departing Jasper, AL (which is right outside of Huntsville / Northern Alabama) for an IFR XC down to Pensacola, FL (which sits in the Florida panhandle). This distance for the trip is 200 NM. The weather conditions for the entire southeast region are forecasted to be widespread IMC with ceilings/visibility near minimums for PNS and near mins for your alternate. Your navigation equipment lacks RNAV so you have filed for airways all the way down.

Ceilings/visibility at Jasper are above takeoff/approach minimums and, since Jasper is an uncontrolled field, you recieve your clearance on the ground via a GCO. The route as you filed is given to you and you depart and climb up to your cleared altitude. As you are climbing you notice that communication is becoming garbled and as soon as you reach your clearance altitude your radios go silent. No amount of troubleshooting can get your radios working. You are now in the classic lost comms scenario.

What do you do now? What is your strategy for the trip?

[gtpilot]

If the nav radios and transponder are working, I'd return to Jasper and shoot an approach there. No sense taking a 200 NM XC when your nav radios could be next! Of course, the only radio failures I've every seen in flight also involved an alternator failure.

Not sure what the examiner would want to hear though.

[av8rmsu]

[ QUOTE ]
If the nav radios and transponder are working, I'd return to Jasper and shoot an approach there. No sense taking a 200 NM XC when your nav radios could be next! Of course, the only radio failures I've every seen in flight also involved an alternator failure.

Not sure what the examiner would want to hear though.

[/ QUOTE ]


Correct Answer

It is exactly what Gordo wants to here.

[flyguy]

I asked that same question to some controllers at the NORCAL TRACON, except I didn't say any specific airports, and belive it or not, at least according to them, you are supposed to fly the entire route as filed/cleared. If you are in VMC, you must stay in VMC and land as soon as practical, but if you are in IMC you will get into BIG trouble if you deviate from your clearance. Of course there is a PIC decision that goes with this and if it appears that you may have an electrical/nav failure, this can qualify as an emergency situation, so you can do what you need to do to get the plane down safely.

[USMCmech]

[ QUOTE ]
you are supposed to fly the entire route as filed/cleared. If you are in VMC, you must stay in VMC and land as soon as practical

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I was taught.

If you can cancel and squak VFR then you should.

Otherwise, fly your clearance as filed. ATC will be looking at your clearance to anticipate what you will be doing next, and clearing your way.

If you do something random, you may fly right into the airliner that they were vectoring around you.

[Minnesota_Flyer]

The FAA textbook response to lost comms is to continue along the assigned route to the cleared destination (unless VMC is encountered -- then stay VMC). However, under the facts presented, I personally think any pilot would be foolish to do anything other than (1) squawk 7600, and (2) turn around and fly the approach back into the departure field.

My reasoning is that both of the comm. radios have just failed for unknown reasons. Consequently, I have no reason to assume that the nav. radios will keep working for a 200 mile flight to the destination in forecast solid IMC. The safest course is to get back on the ground ASAP, before anything else goes wrong.

If the transponder is still working, ATC will get a big alarm when I squawk 7600, and they'll be able to see what I'm doing (if it's not working, even more reason to get on the ground before something else fails). In any case, (based on the facts presented) I apparently have taken off with a clearance void time, which means that the airspace around the airport should be clear until I check in with ATC. Since my radios died as soon as I tried to talk to ATC, that airspace is probably still clear. Thus, the airspace probably will be safe for an immediate return.

As far as getting into trouble for this . . . I gotta be alive to get into trouble. Safety first.

[EatSleepFly]

[ QUOTE ]
I apparently have taken off with a clearance void time, which means that the airspace around the airport should be clear until I check in with ATC.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe not. If there are other aircraft waiting to get in, as soon as you call airborne, ATC is going to start vectoring them in. You don't want to get in the middle of that.

[ QUOTE ]
As far as getting into trouble for this . . . I gotta be alive to get into trouble. Safety first.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is lost comms a life threatening scenario?

If you really must go back to your departure airport, I wouldn't go barging back in without first squawking 7600 so they see what happened, then 7700 before you deviate from your clearance so they can clear the area accordingly. And so you can CYA, since now that they cleared the area, you'll be alive to.

Personally, I'd probably just squawk 7600 and continue on my merry way unless I had good reason to believe something else was seriously wrong.

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]

If the transponder is still working, ATC will get a big alarm when I squawk 7600, and they'll be able to see what I'm doing (if it's not working, even more reason to get on the ground before something else fails).

[/ QUOTE ]

We have an agreement with ARTCC that if we're NORDO, once squawking 7600, we'd change to 76XX once approaching our divert field.....the XX being which runway we're planning on recovering to, so ARTCC/RAPCON/Tower, etc, can have a little more info on what we're planning to do......ie- 7622 for runway 22 recovery. For digits that end in 8 or 9 that aren't on the transponder, it would be 7653 for runway 8, and 7654 for runway 9. Similiarly, it would be 7637 for RW 28, and 7647 for RW 29 (the next tens after 7627 for RW 27). All other runway numbers work, with 7617 doubling for RW 17/18.

[Minnesota_Flyer]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is lost comms a life threatening scenario?

. . .

Personally, I'd probably just squawk 7600 and continue on my merry way unless I had good reason to believe something else was seriously wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]Lost comms. by itself would not be life threatening. But if I've just lost both comm. radios for an unknown reason, how can I assume that the nav. radios are going to keep working for 200 nm. I would prefer to assume (absent better information) that something else is about to go wrong. Lost comm. radios combined with lost nav. radios in solid IMC is a bad, bad situation.

Good point about squawking 7700 after squawking 7600.

MF

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
If you really must go back to your departure airport, I wouldn't go barging back in without first squawking 7600 so they see what happened, then 7700 before you deviate from your clearance so they can clear the area accordingly. And so you can CYA, since now that they cleared the area, you'll be alive to.



[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. You guys are too young to remember the old NORDO rule of squawk 7700 for 1 minute, followed by 7600 for 15 minutes, and repeat.

[EatSleepFly]

Actually that's the reason I suggested it.

I had an old crusty instructor for the very first part of my instrument training, and he told me about it.

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually that's the reason I suggested it.

I had an old crusty instructor for the very first part of my instrument training, and he told me about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the way you said it was backwards, which was what got me thinking.....

[kellwolf]

I have to agree with ESF on this one about continuing as filed. Check the NTSB database for lost comm pilots that have deviated from their clearance. There's quiet a few that had ATC turn an aircraft into them since they weren't where they were supposed to be. It's the classic case of YOU'RE in control, so don't rely on ATC to "clear the area" for you.

As far as anticipating another failure, probably not a bad idea to constantly have the ID for the navaid you're using to constantly blare over the cabin speaker. If you can figure out a way to transmit, you might even try getting a FSS on a VOR frequency with the NAVs. I thought this was gonna be the standard FL lost comm/lost nav/failed electrical system scenario we always get on IR checkrides, but I was wrong.

[EatSleepFly]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually that's the reason I suggested it.

I had an old crusty instructor for the very first part of my instrument training, and he told me about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the way you said it was backwards, which was what got me thinking.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the backwards part was intentional. It seems to make more sense that way. To me at least...

[gtpilot]

Now, as a CFII, I will say the correct answer is to proceed along the entire route, evaluating altitude and routing at each fix to the final destination.

We had a discussion with Orlando controllers last year about this issue and most of them agreed that they considered a 7600 squalk in IMC a crap shoot. Without saying to do this, they did indicate that if you are very close to your departure airport, it makes it so much easier on them if you turn back. Remember that they have to clear your path for the entire route!

It really is a PIC thing and without being in the situation or having more details, it's easy to talk about on the ground. I alway hate these FSDO catch 22 questions for that reason!

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
I have to agree with ESF on this one about continuing as filed. Check the NTSB database for lost comm pilots that have deviated from their clearance. There's quiet a few that had ATC turn an aircraft into them since they weren't where they were supposed to be. It's the classic case of YOU'RE in control, so don't rely on ATC to "clear the area" for you.

As far as anticipating another failure, probably not a bad idea to constantly have the ID for the navaid you're using to constantly blare over the cabin speaker. If you can figure out a way to transmit, you might even try getting a FSS on a VOR frequency with the NAVs. I thought this was gonna be the standard FL lost comm/lost nav/failed electrical system scenario we always get on IR checkrides, but I was wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only problem is, it's a no guarantee situation here. Rarely is NORDO just that, NORDO. Like it was said earlier, if you lose your comm radios, it's rarely ever just a problem with the comm radios, it's usually indicitive of more electrical problems happening, or about to happen. IMHO, in that situation, there's no guarantee that your transponder is even working or will stop working, so it's likely ATC won't know where you are anyway. Would you want to be airborne in hard IMC, relying on your nav radios, only to have them go out due to further electrical problems? Hell no, I wouldn't want to.......you'd be royally screwed in that situation.

Here's where I believe the reg for NORDO ops falls short. Granted, it can't cover every possible contingency, but there should be a blurb about "...this is what to do if you suspect simple NORDO, however,...." Obvious things like a broken comm cord or something that can confirm simple NORDO, then these regs work. For everythng else, you or I can't really determine if it's simple NORDO or full-up electrical failure on the way. I for one, wouldn't want to be caught up there flying a dying jet to my destination, which I might never make anyways.

Here's another thing to consider, from the aviation law aspect: Say you continue in the situation above. Along the way, about :30 into the flight, you lose all electrics. You manage to keep the plane flying and attempt to descend into VMC and end up crashing into a neighborhood. You survive with no injuries. The question is going to come up, why did you take a plane that was deficient and continue into IMC? Was there any other prudent course of action you could've taken? Had you turned back, would you have been able to get on the ground in the :30 minutes that it took for everything to fail? Even though you might have been in compliance with 14 CFR 91.185, you still could get hammered under 91.13. It's a crap sandwitch, I know, and it seems like double jeopardy.

On the other hand, let's take the converse: Same situation, except you decide to turn back, and midair with someone else that's IFR.....or even worse, you continue past the :30 minutes and during your IMC descent in the first example, midair with someone. You're still likly screwed in some way.

[DE727UPS]

"but if you are in IMC you will get into BIG trouble if you deviate from your clearance."

I disagree. Why is it I'm always disagreeing with flyguy? You are not in big trouble and I wonder if you entertained this option to them:

The lost comm reg is really long and involved. The catch all, in the favor of the PIC, is to simply declare an emergency and do what seems safest. If you don't declare an emergency, you are bound by the IFR lost comm reg. You can declare and emergency to yourself, under your breath, and it carries the same regulatory weight as squawking 7700.

Then...just follow the safest course of action for the moment. ATC will get the clue when they can't talk to you, you don't talk to them, they see 7700.

[GaTechKid]

That was basically what I told the examiner. I felt that in this situation following the regs didn't equate to safety and that I would turn around and land at Jasper. One thing that Gordo, the examiner, told me was that if I squawked 7600 and then landed at Jasper I'd be screwed. The FAA would probably violate me for breaking regs since, if I was squawking 7600, the controllers would expect me to continue on with the rest of my clearance. The prudent thing to do would be to squawk 7700 and then, when the controllers came calling, inform them I was dealing with lost comms and an impending electrical failure. One must CYA.

Not only could lost comms have been indicative of an impending electrical failure, what if the weather had worsened while you were enroute? You'd shoot the approach into PNS, go missed, fly to your alternate, shoot the approach there and, if you still have to go missed, what then?

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
I have to agree with ESF on this one about continuing as filed. Check the NTSB database for lost comm pilots that have deviated from their clearance. There's quiet a few that had ATC turn an aircraft into them since they weren't where they were supposed to be. It's the classic case of YOU'RE in control, so don't rely on ATC to "clear the area" for you.


[/ QUOTE ]

My big thing is the airmanship side of the argument. That is, when you have NORDO, it's rarely simple NORDO (unless, of course, it's obvious like a broken comm cord or something). Otherwise, you must assume the worst, that you have impending electrical failure. Basically, it's like this: the airplane is telling you the pilot that it is sick, and possible dying, in an electrical sense. If you the pilot choose to ignore, or otherwise blow-off what the airplane is telling you about itself, then proceed to take said sick airplane further into IMC cruise to destination, that's neither reasonable nor prudent, unless of course that's the only reamining course of action available.

Looking at the options, you have these factors:

1. Turn back: Even if NORDO, you still have your transponder for now. So what if ATC is expecting you to do something planned. Any controller worth his salt will realize if they're no longet talking to you just after takeoff, then they see you go 7700/7600, then they see your ModeC return begin turning back towards the departure airport.....any controller should realize what it is you're doing, and work their end of it appropriately. As is, you're attempting to get to VMC and/or recover while you still have the ability (electrics) to do so.

2. Continue as filed: Now you're playing Russian Roulette, IMO. You're taking a sick airplane further into IMC when there's more reasonable options to take. You're gambling that everything, namely the nav radios, is going to hold together and not fail in the time it takes for you to reach you destination. ATC is able to follow your progress, and if you make it, fine. But what if you don't? What if the electrical system fails. NOW, you're screwed. You can't navigate....you're down to real world DR, but that's going to be very tough. ATC can no longer see you, hence they won't be able to know when you're descending through other IFR altitudes and near other IFR traffic, and hence they won't be able to deconflict. You've now caused more problems then you needed to: for yourself, for ATC, for other aircraft, and those on the ground. Basically, you've f$%cked up as PIC.

So which option would any of you take?

[ QUOTE ]
As far as anticipating another failure, probably not a bad idea to constantly have the ID for the navaid you're using to constantly blare over the cabin speaker. If you can figure out a way to transmit, you might even try getting a FSS on a VOR frequency with the NAVs. I thought this was gonna be the standard FL lost comm/lost nav/failed electrical system scenario we always get on IR checkrides, but I was wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

None of this will do you any good when you end up with nothing after the electrics fail.

[flyguy]

[ QUOTE ]
"but if you are in IMC you will get into BIG trouble if you deviate from your clearance."

I disagree. Why is it I'm always disagreeing with flyguy?

[/ QUOTE ]
First of all, its not me you're disagreeing with, its several controllers from NORCAL you are disagreeing with because that's who told me that. But since you're the almighty 757/767 pilot who's been flying longer than I've been alive I'm sure you know better than they do.

Secondly, you must not have read the rest of my post because it more or less says the exact same thing you said in your post so we're not even in disagreement. Please quit quoting me out of context.

[flyguy]

A lot of people here are assuming that if you lose both comm radios an electircal failure is sure to follow, but that is not necessarily true. I've actually had 2 lost comms where I was unable to communicate on either radio and both instances the electrical system was fine. The first time it turned out to be the push to talk switch, the second turned out to be the headset jacks. Fortunatley both times I was in VMC, flying VFR, and was in the traffic pattern so there was no question that I was comming back in for a landing. If there is an electrical problem you'd probably have another indication other than just lost comms. Did we look at the ammeter? Is the low voltage light on? Also I'd find it unlikely that you could fly 200 miles and not encounter any VMC, but I suppose its possible. However if in doubt, I agree squawk 7700 and get on the ground.

[FlyChicaga]

[ QUOTE ]
You are departing Jasper, AL (which is right outside of Huntsville / Northern Alabama) for an IFR XC down to Pensacola, FL (which sits in the Florida panhandle). This distance for the trip is 200 NM. The weather conditions for the entire southeast region are forecasted to be widespread IMC with ceilings/visibility near minimums for PNS and near mins for your alternate. Your navigation equipment lacks RNAV so you have filed for airways all the way down.

Ceilings/visibility at Jasper are above takeoff/approach minimums and, since Jasper is an uncontrolled field, you recieve your clearance on the ground via a GCO. The route as you filed is given to you and you depart and climb up to your cleared altitude. As you are climbing you notice that communication is becoming garbled and as soon as you reach your clearance altitude your radios go silent. No amount of troubleshooting can get your radios working. You are now in the classic lost comms scenario.

What do you do now? What is your strategy for the trip?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd do a 180 turn, drop down to 50'AGL. Cut off the tops of the pines with my wingtips, grimacing as the chew hangs off my lip. I open the side vent and hock a big spit wad of chew out into the slipstream from the venerable little Piper, as we zip through the rain and fog back to our humble abode.

I cut straight over the airport at 150 knots and fifty feet off the deck, and angle off in a sharp turn that makes the rivets in my wings creak with excitement. I strain to see the bright white numbers of my runway of choice, like a beacon of light in the storm calling me home. Chopping the throttle out quickly, the engine pops loudly in excitement. I wrestle the old bird around in heroic fashion and line up about a hundred feet over the deck, and squeak her on softly like landing on cotton.

As I taxi in, I spit out my chew on the deck, and light up a cig. As relaxed as if I was at home in my easy chair, I swing the low-wing around into the same greasy spot I picked 'er up in. I climb out into the mist and breathe a healthy breath of fresh air, and hop off my steed. I walk around and tap and rub her to wish her a good night, and gather my tattered bag and head off the the pub across the field.

I enter the pub, swinging open the door like Wyatt Earp probably did back in the West. I walk up to the bartender and ask for "The Good Stuff", and she knows what I mean. A good hearty brew fresh off the tap is down in front of me as I pull off my crusty leather jacket and hang the wet sonabitch off the stool next to me. There I serenade my lady at the bar with stories of a heroic journey off to Pensacola which quickly went ary, and how I quickly gathered my wits and brought the find girl safely back home.

As I sat, feet up drinking a good brew, I stared into the fireplace, watching the flames lick at the cobblestones with fury, and said a prayer to the Almighty One that the FAA didn't come out on rainy days...







Sorry I'm drunk.

[Mr_Creepy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"but if you are in IMC you will get into BIG trouble if you deviate from your clearance."

I disagree. Why is it I'm always disagreeing with flyguy?

[/ QUOTE ]
First of all, its not me you're disagreeing with, its several controllers from NORCAL you are disagreeing with because that's who told me that. But since you're the almighty 757/767 pilot who's been flying longer than I've been alive I'm sure you know better than they do.

[/ QUOTE ]

He probably does. Most controllers are not pilots. I am a big supporter of the "Fly a Controller" program for that very reason. I also dislike the title "Controller" very much as they are not in control. A better title would be "Coordinater."

I've deviated from clearances in IMC so many times ... and I haven't got in trouble. I tell them what I'm doing and why, but I will deviate from a clearance if it's going to keep me alive! I suppose you could call that an emergency situation but I never said the words "declaring an emergency."

The best thing to do is not accept the clearance. "Unable" is a great word. I had a controller try to move me in to a thunderstorm just to let some DCA puke join a practice approach. Not only was I "Unable" I informed the controller of my opinion of his judgement, or lack there of.

I believe my incredibly "diplomatic" response was "You're going to turn me in to a level 5 echo just so some Communist Air Puke wasting his daddy's money can fly a practice approach? What are you thinking?"

The controller was trying not to laugh as he apologized

You may say that everyone has the same priority once they're in the air but that's just naive BS. Someone who is building time should not only expect delay vectors, but enjoy them! After all, you're out there "building time" ....

I have my asbestos suit on for the flaming I'm going to get from this one!

[mtsu_av8er]

[ QUOTE ]
. . .grimacing as the chew hangs off my lip. I open the side vent and hock a big spit wad of chew out into the slipstream from the venerable little Piper . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

Real men chew Copenhagen. . .

[mtsu_av8er]

[ QUOTE ]
[quote . . .grimacing as the chew hangs off my lip. I open the side vent and hock a big spit wad of chew out into the slipstream from the venerable little Piper . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

Real men chew Copenhagen. . . while drinking the "good stuff"

[/ QUOTE ]