What Would You Do? - Page 2

SteveC · February 21st, 2005, 09:37

[ QUOTE ]
I believe my incredibly "diplomatic" response was "You're going to turn me in to a level 5 echo just so some Communist Air Puke wasting his daddy's money can fly a practice approach? What are you thinking?"

The controller was trying not to laugh as he apologized

[/ QUOTE ]

MikeD · February 21st, 2005, 09:44

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of people here are assuming that if you lose both comm radios an electircal failure is sure to follow, but that is not necessarily true. I've actually had 2 lost comms where I was unable to communicate on either radio and both instances the electrical system was fine. The first time it turned out to be the push to talk switch, the second turned out to be the headset jacks. Fortunatley both times I was in VMC, flying VFR, and was in the traffic pattern so there was no question that I was comming back in for a landing. If there is an electrical problem you'd probably have another indication other than just lost comms. Did we look at the ammeter? Is the low voltage light on? Also I'd find it unlikely that you could fly 200 miles and not encounter any VMC, but I suppose its possible. However if in doubt, I agree squawk 7700 and get on the ground.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is exactly what I said earlier. IF you can confirm it's simple NORDO, that's one thing. But, that's not always possible. IF you want to then play Russian Roulette, that's your call; though IMO that would be an unwise decision. Believe me, if there's no obvious signs of simple NORDO, how are you the pilot supposed to know that something more sinister isn't about to happen?

It's not so much that you'd stay in IMC for 200 miles, it's more that there's no way for ATC to warn you if there's something up ahead to avoid...all they can do is watch your Mode C return head for that embedded T-storm, or to that airfield that just became socked in that you're wasting your gas heading to. Again, that's assuming that ALL you have is simple NORDO, and nothing else.

flyguy · February 21st, 2005, 10:31

I agree Mike D. I am also assuming though that we are taking all of this into consideration. You've probably checked the weather over the entire route pretty good and know at least somewhat the likelyhood that there might be an embedded t-storm, or that your destination/alternate might get socked in, or that your entire route might be IMC. VMC is obviously the best schenerio if you can get it. If just before I took off, some airports about 10 miles ahead are reporting 10 miles and clear, I'd probably head for that rather than turn around and shoot an approach in actual conditions. I also assume you have some indication of what is wrong with the plane. Both of my comm failures, after about 30 seconds of troubleshooting it was pretty clear it was not an electrical failure. If both comms just flat out dies and there was absolutely no indication of why and I had no idea what was going on, I might be more inclined to assume the worst. Also Its easy for me to say all this on the ground, as my thinking might be different if I'm crapping my pants with a total nordo in IMC, so again, if in doubt I would not hesitate to squawk 7700 and do what I need to do to get on the ground safely. It all comes down to a PIC decision and there are many factors that would go into that.

Doug Taylor · February 21st, 2005, 10:35

[ QUOTE ]
I also dislike the title "Controller" very much as they are not in control. A better title would be "Coordinater."

[/ QUOTE ]

Been to ATL recently?

Mr_Creepy · February 21st, 2005, 11:10

Doug believe me the problem is everywhere.

kellwolf · February 21st, 2005, 12:53

[ QUOTE ]
Which is exactly what I said earlier. IF you can confirm it's simple NORDO, that's one thing. But, that's not always possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm speaking from VERY VERY limited experience here since I've only lost comms twice in IMC. Both times were due to broken (or fractured in this case) comm antennaes. As soon as I realized it was REALLY quiet, I turned on the ID function of the NAV radios over the cabin speaker and left them on. The minute those went silent, I knew I was officially screwed. Lucky for me, they never did, and I was able to get back to ORL. Also, lucky for me I was only shooting practice approaches into ORL. Make it a lot easier when tower just sees you taxi clear of the active instead of taking off back into the soup for your next practice approach.

I'm a big fan of the "shadow a controller" program, too. One of the times I was shadowing at ORL, an ATA guy was shooting an approach (in VMC) and wasn't talking to tower. We figured the guy had lost comms and would stop. Nope, touched down and took right back off. Turned out he had the wrong freq tuned (to his home airport??!??) but never tried anything else when he didn't hear the tower talking to him. Not sure if he got in trouble for landing without clearnance or not....

MikeD · February 21st, 2005, 17:25

[ QUOTE ]

I'm speaking from VERY VERY limited experience here since I've only lost comms twice in IMC. Both times were due to broken (or fractured in this case) comm antennaes. As soon as I realized it was REALLY quiet, I turned on the ID function of the NAV radios over the cabin speaker and left them on. The minute those went silent, I knew I was officially screwed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with both you and flyguy for this scenario of simple NORDO. Though the situation still sort of sucks, it is comforting to be able to identify that just a broken radio, or comm cord, or PTT is all you've got.

ROFCIBC · February 21st, 2005, 22:06

[ QUOTE ]
LOL. You guys are too young to remember the old NORDO rule of squawk 7700 for 1 minute, followed by 7600 for 15 minutes, and repeat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seem to remember that was because at that time only 7700 would override everything and show up. Eventually they expanded it to 7600 and I'm sure 7500. (Does this make me an old phart?)

The key it to MINIMIZE the amount of time a NORDO airplane is operating in IMC under and IFR flight plan.

I agree that as PIC I'd beat feet back to the nearest suitable airfield, get on the ground, and call ATC to let them know where I am. That way they can go back to business as normal and not tie up an inordinate amount of airspace for a NORDO airplane.

Windchill · February 22nd, 2005, 23:06

I think this thread jinxed me.

Went flying tonight, was going to log some xc hours but didn't like the weather ... either way I figure I'd knock out my night currency.

After putzing around, I'm inbound to MRB and tower asks me to switch radios 'cause he can't hear me too well -- but I could hear him great. So I switch and ask him if it's better ... in a choppy transmission he tells me much better.

Wonderful, on one radio #2 I can hear great but he can't, and on #1 tower hears fine but I receive the tower in choppy transmissions ... the radio was on the #2 when I got in the plane probably beacause the last flight had the same problem.

Needless to say I made the first landing my only one as I opted to stay on the ground. I'm still current, just not fresh as of tonight ... oh well. The joys of old training aircraft ... gotta love 'em.

kellwolf · February 22nd, 2005, 23:29

Heh, there's a way to make that work. Switch to listen to both, but turn the volume all the way down on #2. Set to transmit on #2. Bam. Everyone's happy, but you only have one radio.

flyguy · February 22nd, 2005, 23:36

Or, rather than listening on both, you can simply listen on #2 and transmit on #1.

February 21st, 2005, 09:37	#26
SteveC Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: GRR Posts: 8,456	Re: What Would You Do? [ QUOTE ] I believe my incredibly "diplomatic" response was "You're going to turn me in to a level 5 echo just so some Communist Air Puke wasting his daddy's money can fly a practice approach? What are you thinking?" The controller was trying not to laugh as he apologized [/ QUOTE ]

February 21st, 2005, 09:44	#27
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: What Would You Do? [ QUOTE ] A lot of people here are assuming that if you lose both comm radios an electircal failure is sure to follow, but that is not necessarily true. I've actually had 2 lost comms where I was unable to communicate on either radio and both instances the electrical system was fine. The first time it turned out to be the push to talk switch, the second turned out to be the headset jacks. Fortunatley both times I was in VMC, flying VFR, and was in the traffic pattern so there was no question that I was comming back in for a landing. If there is an electrical problem you'd probably have another indication other than just lost comms. Did we look at the ammeter? Is the low voltage light on? Also I'd find it unlikely that you could fly 200 miles and not encounter any VMC, but I suppose its possible. However if in doubt, I agree squawk 7700 and get on the ground. [/ QUOTE ] Which is exactly what I said earlier. IF you can confirm it's simple NORDO, that's one thing. But, that's not always possible. IF you want to then play Russian Roulette, that's your call; though IMO that would be an unwise decision. Believe me, if there's no obvious signs of simple NORDO, how are you the pilot supposed to know that something more sinister isn't about to happen? It's not so much that you'd stay in IMC for 200 miles, it's more that there's no way for ATC to warn you if there's something up ahead to avoid...all they can do is watch your Mode C return head for that embedded T-storm, or to that airfield that just became socked in that you're wasting your gas heading to. Again, that's assuming that ALL you have is simple NORDO, and nothing else.

February 21st, 2005, 10:31	#28
flyguy Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 2,078	Re: What Would You Do? I agree Mike D. I am also assuming though that we are taking all of this into consideration. You've probably checked the weather over the entire route pretty good and know at least somewhat the likelyhood that there might be an embedded t-storm, or that your destination/alternate might get socked in, or that your entire route might be IMC. VMC is obviously the best schenerio if you can get it. If just before I took off, some airports about 10 miles ahead are reporting 10 miles and clear, I'd probably head for that rather than turn around and shoot an approach in actual conditions. I also assume you have some indication of what is wrong with the plane. Both of my comm failures, after about 30 seconds of troubleshooting it was pretty clear it was not an electrical failure. If both comms just flat out dies and there was absolutely no indication of why and I had no idea what was going on, I might be more inclined to assume the worst. Also Its easy for me to say all this on the ground, as my thinking might be different if I'm crapping my pants with a total nordo in IMC, so again, if in doubt I would not hesitate to squawk 7700 and do what I need to do to get on the ground safely. It all comes down to a PIC decision and there are many factors that would go into that.

February 21st, 2005, 10:35	#29
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 40,430 Blog Entries: 1	Re: What Would You Do? [ QUOTE ] I also dislike the title "Controller" very much as they are not in control. A better title would be "Coordinater." [/ QUOTE ] Been to ATL recently?

February 21st, 2005, 11:10	#30
Mr_Creepy Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: In the O-zone Posts: 5,807	Re: What Would You Do? Doug believe me the problem is everywhere.

February 21st, 2005, 12:53	#31
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,634	Re: What Would You Do? [ QUOTE ] Which is exactly what I said earlier. IF you can confirm it's simple NORDO, that's one thing. But, that's not always possible. [/ QUOTE ] I'm speaking from VERY VERY limited experience here since I've only lost comms twice in IMC. Both times were due to broken (or fractured in this case) comm antennaes. As soon as I realized it was REALLY quiet, I turned on the ID function of the NAV radios over the cabin speaker and left them on. The minute those went silent, I knew I was officially screwed. Lucky for me, they never did, and I was able to get back to ORL. Also, lucky for me I was only shooting practice approaches into ORL. Make it a lot easier when tower just sees you taxi clear of the active instead of taking off back into the soup for your next practice approach. I'm a big fan of the "shadow a controller" program, too. One of the times I was shadowing at ORL, an ATA guy was shooting an approach (in VMC) and wasn't talking to tower. We figured the guy had lost comms and would stop. Nope, touched down and took right back off. Turned out he had the wrong freq tuned (to his home airport??!??) but never tried anything else when he didn't hear the tower talking to him. Not sure if he got in trouble for landing without clearnance or not....

February 21st, 2005, 17:25	#32
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: What Would You Do? [ QUOTE ] I'm speaking from VERY VERY limited experience here since I've only lost comms twice in IMC. Both times were due to broken (or fractured in this case) comm antennaes. As soon as I realized it was REALLY quiet, I turned on the ID function of the NAV radios over the cabin speaker and left them on. The minute those went silent, I knew I was officially screwed. [/ QUOTE ] I agree with both you and flyguy for this scenario of simple NORDO. Though the situation still sort of sucks, it is comforting to be able to identify that just a broken radio, or comm cord, or PTT is all you've got.

February 21st, 2005, 22:06	#33
ROFCIBC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Bossier City, Louisiana Posts: 591	Re: What Would You Do? [ QUOTE ] LOL. You guys are too young to remember the old NORDO rule of squawk 7700 for 1 minute, followed by 7600 for 15 minutes, and repeat. [/ QUOTE ] Seem to remember that was because at that time only 7700 would override everything and show up. Eventually they expanded it to 7600 and I'm sure 7500. (Does this make me an old phart?) The key it to MINIMIZE the amount of time a NORDO airplane is operating in IMC under and IFR flight plan. I agree that as PIC I'd beat feet back to the nearest suitable airfield, get on the ground, and call ATC to let them know where I am. That way they can go back to business as normal and not tie up an inordinate amount of airspace for a NORDO airplane.

February 22nd, 2005, 23:06	#34
Windchill Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Mid-Atlantic, KMRB Posts: 1,925	Re: What Would You Do? I think this thread jinxed me. Went flying tonight, was going to log some xc hours but didn't like the weather ... either way I figure I'd knock out my night currency. After putzing around, I'm inbound to MRB and tower asks me to switch radios 'cause he can't hear me too well -- but I could hear him great. So I switch and ask him if it's better ... in a choppy transmission he tells me much better. Wonderful, on one radio #2 I can hear great but he can't, and on #1 tower hears fine but I receive the tower in choppy transmissions ... the radio was on the #2 when I got in the plane probably beacause the last flight had the same problem. Needless to say I made the first landing my only one as I opted to stay on the ground. I'm still current, just not fresh as of tonight ... oh well. The joys of old training aircraft ... gotta love 'em.

February 22nd, 2005, 23:29	#35
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,634	Re: What Would You Do? Heh, there's a way to make that work. Switch to listen to both, but turn the volume all the way down on #2. Set to transmit on #2. Bam. Everyone's happy, but you only have one radio.

February 22nd, 2005, 23:36	#36
flyguy Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 2,078	Re: What Would You Do? Or, rather than listening on both, you can simply listen on #2 and transmit on #1.

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