Actual Air Time?-Maybe a stupid question

[AA]

When being trained for an airline, do trainees get actual airtime in the plane in which they are training to fly, or just sim time? Just wondering because I noticed that Euro airlines do this, but havent heard about US airlines.

[ROFCIBC]

[ QUOTE ]
When being trained for an airline, do trainees get actual airtime in the plane in which they are training to fly, or just sim time? Just wondering because I noticed that Euro airlines do this, but havent heard about US airlines.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sim time exclusively at least at Delta Air Lines..

We used to get a ride in the real thing during training, but that ended in the early 90s I think. When I got checked out as an MD88 F/O I 1988 we went to AGS and shot touch and go’s for a while. Only time I ever got real seat time during training. From then on it was all simulators.

Once you get your training complete you get an IOE, aka Initial Operating Experience with a LCA, aka Line Check Airman. For a F/O it may be a single rotation of three or four days. For a Captain it's usually two rotations. For an initial checkout in a new airplane or as a first Captain check the FAA will be on board for the final "blessing". After the "blessing" you are on your own. At Delta if you were DFW based, you had to get some time in the MD90 as we were the only base flying them.

There may be some restrictions initially as you are a "low time" Captain. For example you can't fly a Cat III approach until you meet certain time requirements and get off of what may be called "high minimums".

All this varies from airline to airline depending on what sort of program they choose to run and what FAA approvals they have.

For some training it may just be a few hours of class time. For instance the MD90 is a special category that only one base of pilots fly’s. Those pilots can fly the MD88, but get an hour of extra training each year and fly the MD90. None of the other MD88 pilots can fly the MD90.

Some airlines , like Delta have a common 757/767 category rating. Others keep them separate.

It all depends on what the airline and the FAA agree to in terms of how an airline conducts operations under their particular operating certificate.

Hope this wasn’t too long an boring!

[mrivc211]

Ditto what said at Skywest. Although we did get one night of pattern work in the Brasilia at midnight. That was fun.

[AA]

Thanks alot guys, it helped a lot. And no, ROFCIBC, it wasn't too long and boring, ha.

[Phil2016]

Doug, do you ever fly the MD-90 now being based in ATL or all MD-88?

[Doug Taylor]

Only SLC-based pilots fly the MD-90.

[Doug Taylor]

[ QUOTE ]
When being trained for an airline, do trainees get actual airtime in the plane in which they are training to fly, or just sim time? Just wondering because I noticed that Euro airlines do this, but havent heard about US airlines.

[/ QUOTE ]

Delta was just sim. Skyway was sim + aircraft.

[Alchemy]

ExpressJet gives you one training flight (no pax) in the actual airplane, called the "FAM" flight. This happens after your Proficiency Check, and is the last training event before IOE.

Mine consisted of a normal ILS with a go around at 50ft AGL, a localizer only approach, a single engine ILS with one thrust lever retarded to idle, and a visual approach (traffic pattern). Since this is the first time you get to see/touch the actual working airplane during training, they also take you through the preflight inspection.

This was all done at about midnight at a desolate west texas airport.

[flyover]

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Ditto what said at Skywest. Although we did get one night of pattern work in the Brasilia at midnight. That was fun.

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Training flights were a blast at Delta. Doing touch and goes at AGS in an L-1011, for example. We got to do some training flights when D got the 737s with the HUD. We went out and did touch and goes with pillows stuffed in the left side window. That was a blast. Definitely missed the training flights, probably why I stayed on the MD-88 and 738 so long after they did away with them.

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Pinnacle does it the same way most majors do..... your first flight in the real airplane is with passengers on your first leg of IOE. .... the look on the FA' face when I told her that was my first landing in the actual plane.

[flyover]

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Pinnacle does it the same way most majors do..... your first flight in the real airplane is with passengers on your first leg of IOE. .... the look on the FA' face when I told her that was my first landing in the actual plane.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did she make this post-landing announcement?

"Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to XXXXX. Please remain in your seats with your seatbelts fastened while the Captain taxis what's left of our airplane to the gate!"

[seagull]

When I instructed for a large west coast regional, we did all of the training in the actual airplanes. Nothing like simulating a V1 cut at midnight by pulling a throttle to idle and hanging on! Many hours of that kind of stuff. Standard policy is we flew if the weather was legal, so we'd be up doing airwork in IMC with block altitudes. Great fun, but sims are definitely safer.

I did get to fly the actual aircraft for the final phase of pre-IOE for both my F/O checkouts in the 727 and DC8. After that, it's been sims after since. Really seems to be no problem, and I have had no issue with taking a student out for their first "actual airplane" flight on a revenue trip. All the same to me!

[av8trxx]

[ QUOTE ]
When being trained for an airline, do trainees get actual airtime in the plane in which they are training to fly, or just sim time?

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I believe that whether or not a new F/O has to do training in the real a/c depends on their previous flying experience. That's what I was told by the school house staff. Some in my new hire class already had turbine time so they did not have to do any training in the real a/c, but their first flight was with pax onboard. They only did line oriented flight trainng/LOFT in the sim before hand. Since I had no previous turbine experience, I was scheduled for 3 landings and simulated engine out proceedures & approaches in the real thing,

[flyover]

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Great fun, but sims are definitely safer.

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There were some spectacular crashes in the early jet days that really showed the need for simulators. I believe that you now see some of those same things happening at some of the regionals that use aircraft for training.

My first DC-8 systems instructor was staying in a motel in New Orleans that was hit by a Delta DC-8 . The motel had a bunch of kids staying in it who were trapped in their rooms by the ensuing fire. It was this incident:

1967, March 30: Delta Air Lines at New Orleans, DC-8, practicing two engines inop (on one side) approach (4-engine airplane). Five crew, an FAA observer and 13 people on the ground were killed. Part of a motel complex, several homes and the aircraft were destroyed.

Sims, definitely the way to go.