what to do what to do

[John2375]

Let's say, "hypothetically" that you have somewhere in the neighborhood of between $15,000 and $25,000 at your displosal.
You also have 330 total hours of experience, a commercial license, instrument/multi, etc.
Do you:
A: Spend the money on an internship program which guarantees to give you either 250 or 350 total hours in either a Navajo, Metroliner, or B-727, depending which program you choose, or
B: Spend the money to get a type-rating in a Cessna Citation, after which 0 hours are guaranteed, but maybe employment won't be far behind...

The internship programs have the guaranteed hours, and could lead to employment with the regionals or smaller companies...the type-rating would not make it "pay-to-work" but I'd still be looking for a job with barely 400 total hours depending how many hours a type-rating course provides.
Is it possible to get hired on a corporate-flying gig with the sort of time?

I appreciate any input....
John

[mtsu_av8er]

Corporate gig ain't gonna happen, partner.

Here's a thought...spend $5000 on your CFI ratings, and go log time that way. Put the rest in the bak for a rainy day.

[Doug Taylor]

My answer is "What Lloyd Said".

N'uff said!

[Ophir]

What kind of internship charges $15-25K?

I would go the CFI route as well. You can't learn enough in this industry and teaching it is the best way of learning it.

[I_WANNA_BE_ATP]

I say give me some of that cash, I'm a starving student!!!!!

But seriously, take 5G and go on vacation and use the rest for your instructor ratings!!

[triple7]

[ QUOTE ]
What kind of internship charges $15-25K?


[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like the makings of a pft thread......

[Citationkid]

[ QUOTE ]

Is it possible to get hired on a corporate-flying gig with the sort of time?


[/ QUOTE ]

That all depends on who you know. There's a guy at flightinfo I met a while back who was hired to fly right seat in a Lear at 400 hours and was a captain with 800 (it may have been 600) hours and now, at 1400 hours, is typed in all the lears but the 60, the Global Express, Citation 500, and the Westwind. Good luck.

[Sprint100]

Time build with half of it or get those CFI ratings then invest the rest in mutual funds. I invest in tech funds and health science funds and my investment has already returned 6% which is very good. This may be a plateau for another 6 or 7 months but it is still a good return none the less. I'm in it for the long haul, so tech is the way to go for me. I've seen some drastic short-term losses, but hey I'm playin this game to win so I'm in it for the full 4 quarters

[Sprint100]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it possible to get hired on a corporate-flying gig with the sort of time?


[/ QUOTE ]

It would depend on if you have a good "invite-you-and-the-family-over-dinner-consistently" type of realtionship with big hiring influences in the company, but coming right off the street, out of a academy or not, I would concur with mtsu.

[DE727UPS]

"Let's say, "hypothetically" that you have somewhere in the neighborhood of between $15,000 and $25,000 at your displosal. You also have 330 total hours of experience, a commercial license, instrument/multi, etc."

I'll answer this assuming you don't have any interest in instructing....which is really the best way to go. At the same time, people who hate the thought of instructing don't make very good CFI's.

Buy a little taildragger and find interesting, challenging places to go in it. You're major problem is a lack of total time. Get up around 1000 total and you'll have more credability. A little taildragger will make you a better pilot than sitting right seat in a Navajo.

Both of the options you are looking at are a gamble. Of course, seeing where you are from, maybe that doesn't bother you....hehe. I'd bet my money on more of a sure thing, like finding a way to build my total time.

Option A could easily leave you with 500+ total and 200 multi but the fact that it's ride-along-time will stick out like a sore thumb. If you're lucky, you'll find an outfit that won't care.

Option B gives you a jet type rating as a super low time pilot. I don't think that will impress many. If you're lucky, you might find a SIC job in Vegas and work your way up from there. Could happen.

[DE727UPS]

He's talking about an Eagle Jet sort of program. It's ride-along-time. Not a traditional internship.

[FL270]

Lloyd's right. Get your CFI, earn money, and put the other 80+% of your money in a conservative investment vehicle for the inevitable lean years or for your retirement.

Having total time and multi time is, of course, important to landing a paying job, but the quality of the time is also of import to those making hiring decisions. 1000 hours as a CFI will look better than 1000 hours boring holes in the sky on your own. Preferred is time where you are being paid and hold a position of responsibility. CFI time looks good to employers for that reason.

Don is also correct, though ... if you're dead-set against instructing, don't do it. You won't make a good instructor if you're just marking time. Find another way, though it may be more challenging, to build the time.

Option A is thinly-veiled PFT. I recommend against it.

Option B is not as distasteful, but a type rating in a Citation with low TT and no time in type doesn't do you much good ... it won't hurt you, but it may not help much either.

[montanapilot]

you'll be apologizing for the rest of your career if you do that PFT stuff. Plus it hurts the industry.

run a search on PFT and you'll see enough discussions on it to keep you busy for days.

[John2375]

First, thanks for the replies - I appreciate everyone's insights.
However, I'm baffled at this obsession with being a CFI that everyone seems to have. Don't get me wrong, I think it's one of the most noble professions there is, to teach.
However, wouldn't you rather be taught be someone who was in 100% in confidence in what they were conveying? I know how to fly an airplane, and do so quite well, if I may say so...however, I also know that I canNOT teach and therefore dont feel qualified to do so. I've been blessed with a couple of great instructors, who didn't teach to build time but for the love of teaching, and I've had a couple that were robotic and didnt' want to truly be there any longer than necessary.
I have considered a CFI career for a couple of years to build time, but like I said, don't feel l'm qualified to TEACH - that does NOT mean I'm not qualified to fly. Teaching and flying are 2 different things - just because you can do something does NOT mean you can explain it to someone else.
Again, I have the utmost respect for those who teach, especially aviaition since it's such a responsible position. But I don't want to get a CFI rating and then find myself unfit for the position, especially if I'm feel I'm unfit myself.

Now, another question: What is so wrong about paying for flight time? Don't a majority of us do it everytime we go rent an aircraft? So a company cuts a deal and gets you 350 hours for only $25,000- whats the big deal? It's still a 2-pilot operation, it's still experience, and it's at a reduced price. I dont see how that hurts the industry at all - just because a majority have to slave away at being an instructor and practically starve to death in the process doesn't make it wrong to take advantage of an honest opportunity.
Don't you think it's wrong then that these guys who have only 2500 total hours are the pilots of the space shuttle? It's the quality of their experience, not the amount. And spending 2 years teaching people how to land an aircraft I won't probably fly after those 2 years are up, and how to recover from stalls and so forth, itn't quality to me; it's much more quality to be in a program that will have you out there doing the sort of flying you'll be doing for a career.
And another thing - wouldnt you rather be taught by a CFI that has some experience and real-world experience? I've found the CFI's I've had who only have 300 total hours really dont know what they're doing, especially compared to those who've made a lifetime of teaching or had a career in flying already.
I think it's insane you need 2000 hours of time to fly boxes of cancelled checks around yet barely more than 200 to be entrusted with the life of someone who doesn't even know how to fly. That's insanity I think.
I'd much rather pay a few bucks, lead on to a career in aviation for many years, then take those years of experience and therefore acquried confidence and convey that to beginner students - I think instructors should be the ones required to have at LEAST 2000 hours of time and "real-world" experience.
Just my .02 and maybe a couple more
John

[stuckingfk]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, another question: What is so wrong about paying for flight time? Don't a majority of us do it everytime we go rent an aircraft? So a company cuts a deal and gets you 350 hours for only $25,000- whats the big deal? It's still a 2-pilot operation, it's still experience, and it's at a reduced price. I dont see how that hurts the industry at all - just because a majority have to slave away at being an instructor and practically starve to death in the process doesn't make it wrong to take advantage of an honest opportunity.


[/ QUOTE ]

That is the problem. If it is a two pilot operation, you are taking a JOB away from someone who SHOULD be getting paid to fly, not paying the company to fly.

If you are dead set on purchasing time, go to Skymates or Ari and buy some multi time, or buy a SE plane and fly the crap out of it. Please don't pay someone to fly when someone should be getting paid.

[mtsu_av8er]

Oh, john2375...where should I start?




[ QUOTE ]

However, I'm baffled at this obsession with being a CFI that everyone seems to have.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it's for a couple of reasons.

One, you're getting paid to fly instead of paying to fly. That's a big difference.

Two, you'd be amazed at how much you learn. You learn about yourself, you learn about the aircraft, you learn about ATC and you learn about weather. You learn about personalities. You learn when to let the student learn from a mistake, and when to take control and keep your life.

Three, it's the cheapest way! You pay to get your ratings, and then you get paid!

Fourth, it shows that you have been trusted with an airplane, and that you handled the responsibility well. Would you bet on a horse that's never even raced?

[ QUOTE ]

I know how to fly an airplane, and do so quite well, if I may say so...however, I also know that I canNOT teach and therefore dont feel qualified to do so.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's why you can't buy a flight instructor cert in Wal-Mart...there's training!


[ QUOTE ]

I have considered a CFI career for a couple of years to build time, but like I said, don't feel l'm qualified to TEACH - that does NOT mean I'm not qualified to fly. Teaching and flying are 2 different things - just because you can do something does NOT mean you can explain it to someone else.


[/ QUOTE ]

Refer to my statements above.

[ QUOTE ]

But I don't want to get a CFI rating and then find myself unfit for the position, especially if I'm feel I'm unfit myself.


[/ QUOTE ]

I thought that I'd never be able to do it, too. But believe me, your CFI CFI is going to ensure that you can!!

[ QUOTE ]

Now, another question: What is so wrong about paying for flight time?


[/ QUOTE ]

Wow....haven't been around JC long, huh? If you buy time just because it's easier, you're undermining the rest of the industry. What would you do if you found out that your heart surgeon got the job because he paid for it? Went to med school, and skipped all the BS duties by writing a check. Can you imagine what would happen to doctor salaries once the world realized that there were people willing to buy the job?

[ QUOTE ]

Don't a majority of us do it everytime we go rent an aircraft? So a company cuts a deal and gets you 350 hours for only $25,000- whats the big deal?


[/ QUOTE ]

The big deal is that somebody should have been getting paid for that job, not paying for it. Also, remember when I mentioned the race horse? Well, now you're worse than horse that has never raced. If a company hired you based upon your bought time, they'd be betting on a horse that may not even be a race horse - all they know is that you had a fat wallet!!

Paying for your flight time doesn't prove that you're a quality pilot. It proves that you have some money.

Flight instructing for 600 hours says a whole lot more about your skills. Even if you are only doing it to get someplace else (there's nothing wrong with that, but the way....).

[ QUOTE ]

I dont see how that hurts the industry at all - just because a majority have to slave away at being an instructor and practically starve to death in the process doesn't make it wrong to take advantage of an honest opportunity.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're being taken advantage of. They should be paying you to fly the plane, not you paying them!!!

[ QUOTE ]
And spending 2 years teaching people how to land an aircraft I won't probably fly after those 2 years are up, and how to recover from stalls and so forth, itn't quality to me; it's much more quality to be in a program that will have you out there doing the sort of flying you'll be doing for a career.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm.....not really. Flying is flying. It's more than just quality....it's good quality.

Ask some of the airline pilots here how much they use their CFI skills when flying an airliner. Doug talks about it quite frequently.

[ QUOTE ]

And another thing - wouldnt you rather be taught by a CFI that has some experience and real-world experience?


[/ QUOTE ]

Flying in a C-172 with a student is real world experience. What, is it a fake airplane?

I have confidence that if I can teach you how to fly an ILS, when you haven't ever done one, I can fly it myself.

As a CFI, I have opportunity to fly into more varied airports that most airline cerws...

[ QUOTE ]

I've found the CFI's I've had who only have 300 total hours really dont know what they're doing, especially compared to those who've made a lifetime of teaching or had a career in flying already.


[/ QUOTE ]

I've also seen 25,000 hour pilots that flew like crap. That goes both ways.

[ QUOTE ]

I think it's insane you need 2000 hours of time to fly boxes of cancelled checks around yet barely more than 200 to be entrusted with the life of someone who doesn't even know how to fly. That's insanity I think.


[/ QUOTE ]

Let me know how you feel after a loved-one gets killed in a plane crash with a 300-hour pilot at the stick.

[ QUOTE ]

I think instructors should be the ones required to have at LEAST 2000 hours of time and "real-world" experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, where would they get the real-world experience?

[montanapilot]

[PorcoRosso]

Or buy a Cri Cri and build up some multi time

[John2375]

Although I appreciate your time to reply and your thoughts, I still disagree with you on several points:

1. I"m not BUYING A JOB, I'm gaining experience.
2. These intern companies don't just let you sit there like a lump and jerkoff for your time - if that were the case, I'd agree with you that is was taking something away.
However, people who do these programs LEARN and gain EXPERIENCE that's applicable right away in the flying world and therefore should be more marketable.
Let's say I do one in particular...I'd only be 100 hours or so away from having the qualifications they require to be hired fulltime anyhow...so if that person is now Captain at this company and somebody else is still toiling around getting 50 CFI hours a month and working parttime at the 7-11...I think it's obvious which makes more sense to do, at least it does to me.
3. You're not PAYING TO FLY THE PLANE. You're PAYING to get the necessary training to pass an FAR 135 checkride in the 727, metroliner, whatever it is...and then the company allows you the privledge of flying 250 hours or whatever the agreement is.
If you're not cutting it, they'll release you before the checkride, so you don't jeopardize your career by failing the checkride. They'll also give you practically all your money back - therefore the money is for TRAINING - you're not paying to fly their planes at all.

I can see it's me against the board here and I'm not going to change my thinking and no one else will change theirs - that's all right - we're all here for the LOVE of flying. How we get our goals is up to us and up to what fate allows.
Some set goals of being a 777 Captain and I think that's ridiculous - just fly to fly - if I never got to fly even a regional jet but had a rewarding career flying in Alaska or flying in a situation that I loved, that's all the matters.

If someone here has done one of these programs, but doesn't want to get flamed - feel free to email me or PM me.
Thanks,
John
John2375@hotmail.com

[montanapilot]

sent you an email, (havent done the program but figured before tempers get all riled up I'd email ya)

[Grabo172]

[ QUOTE ]

1. I"m not BUYING A JOB, I'm gaining experience.


[/ QUOTE ]

The simple test is... if they can fly the plane WITHOUT you on board then you are not taking a job from someone else.

But then again, if they don't need you on board, then WHAT are you logging?

If it is indeed a 135, 2 pilot operation, then the right seat should be for someone who is being PAID to be there.

I suggest you take the money buy an airplane and build time that way. That's what I'd do if I had a big wad of moolah!

[RPM]

[ QUOTE ]
So a company cuts a deal and gets you 350 hours for only $25,000- whats the big deal? It's still a 2-pilot operation, it's still experience, and it's at a reduced price. I dont see how that hurts the industry at all

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you not see how this hurts the profession?? People that do this type of thing are driving down the wages and taking jobs from those of us who actually want to make a living flying without having to BUY our way in!! As soon as you have your commercial/CFI certs, you should be paid to fly! - PERIOD...youv'e earned it, thats the point of getting the damn certificate!! ...Companies like this are just taking advantage of starry-eyed pilots willing to do ANYTHING to get ahead.

Why would a company need to hire and pay a SIC pilot when they can get some dumbass to pay them to work there. Guess what, you just stole Joe pilots first paying SIC job because you were actually dumb enough to pay them to work there! Now he's screwed and out of a job unless he wants to pay $25,000 just for the opportunity to work there. While we're at it, we might as well just lower the pilot wages down to minimum wage, since morons are so willing to do anything to get ahead...no need to pay a decent wage since we can just get one of these suckers to do it for cheaper. Where does it end?? Thank God for pilot unions at the airlines, I couldn't imagine what would happen to the wages without them, with this PFJ i'll do anything foe experience mentallity out there.


FYI- I'd say the majority of professional pilots are 100% against this type of thing since it has the potential to hurt their paycheck. These same pilots are involved in the hiring process at your potential future flying jobs. Now, do you really want to walk into an interview with a logbook full of bought SIC time knowing full well that most pilots despise what you did, I sure wouldn't.


I'd suggest the CFI route...there is no better experience/responsibility than teaching, and you'd save a LOT of money....but since you are clearly against that I would recommend buying a cheap older cessna with that $ and fly the piss out of it.

[JEP]

[ QUOTE ]
1. I"m not BUYING A JOB, I'm gaining experience.

[/ QUOTE ]
Would you be flying(working) for them if you did not pay the $25k? No, then you are buying a job.

[ QUOTE ]
3. You're not PAYING TO FLY THE PLANE. You're PAYING to get the necessary training to pass an FAR 135 checkride in the 727, metroliner, whatever it is...and then the company allows you the privledge of flying 250 hours or whatever the agreement is.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, you are. Why "pay to get the necessary training to pass an FAR 135 checkride in the 727, metroliner, whatever it is..." when they should be paying you. "and then the company allows you the privledge of flying 250 hours or whatever the agreement is. " a privilege which you should be getting paid for.

[mtsu_av8er]

[ QUOTE ]
Although I appreciate your time to reply and your thoughts, I still disagree with you on several points:

[/ QUOTE ]

well, go for it, big dog!! Buy that job!!!

Why did you ask, by the way??

[Screaming_Emu]

I say you buy lots and lots of beer and have a JC kegger...:-D