Speaking of Scabs...

[Bog]

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How do you feel about the "Freedom list"? How much animosity is there towards the initial Freedom guys?

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Don't get me started on that one. That slowed my upgrade by about 6 months, the equivalent of roughly $13,000.00.

[Indigo]

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Forgive my ingorance, but can one be an airline pilot without joining the union?

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I am curious about this too. I realize that some airlines do not have unions, but if you are employed by one which does, is it necessary to join? Then if that union strikes and you, a non-union member, crosses the line, is your name going on that scab list? Somehow, I suspect so.

I understand the historical reason for unions and collective barganing, but I think that some of the tactics used by unions to coerce their members, the fear of being put on a scab list for example, is just as bad as anything management does.

[Doug Taylor]

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I am curious about this too. I realize that some airlines do not have unions, but if you are employed by one which does, is it necessary to join?

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Depends on the company. Either way you're paying the same dues, but don't have access to the aeromedical, accident and legal divisions without paying big fees I think.

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Then if that union strikes and you, a non-union member, crosses the line, is your name going on that scab list? Somehow, I suspect so.

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Yes.

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I understand the historical reason for unions and collective barganing, but I think that some of the tactics used by unions to coerce their members, the fear of being put on a scab list for example, is just as bad as anything management does.

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Read "Flying the Line" available at Amazon.com.

And an important thing to realize is that an airline always gets the union it deserves.

[N9103M]

"Flying The Line" 1 & 2 as well as "Hard Landing" (Book about the demise of Eastern and Lorenzo) Should be required reading. All excellent books.

[Doug Taylor]

I wish people could have known "Bog" when he was just a business major and some of the views on unions and compare/contrast to his views now!

I've worked for a non-union carrier before and trust me, it's not pretty.

[tonyw]

You should have seen me right when I got out of college! I was all about management being right, unions being dinosaurs that only protected the weak, etc.

After about ten years in corporate America, I've done a 180. Now I personally think that everyone should be unionized. It's the only way to put a check on management shafting you. They can still shaft you, but you've got the option to go on strike and watch them sweat for a while.

Without an union, if they want to say, hey, we're jacking up your co-pay and we're increasing your share of the insurance premium, you've got no choice but to cough up the money. While a union's no guarantee that won't happen, at least they have to negotiate it.

[Doug Taylor]

I got my big wakeup call when I was pressured to fly a lot of broken, out-of-annual aicraft during my CFI years and there was constantly the drone of "Hey, the plane's fine, if you don't fly it, I can probably have someone in here in 30 minutes that'll do it in a heartbeat".

Luckily, my threats to walk out the door with my students helped balance that out.

The reason I always suggest that people read "Flying The Line" is for newbies to look at the world before the airlines were unionized.

Thankfully, if I used the term "pilot pushing" 95% of my users have no clue what that means -- because of union-fought items like maximum duty days, minimum rest rules and the captain's right of refusal.

Like I had to call in sick a few days ago because of a bad allergy attack. In the "old" days, most likely, I'd have gotten a call from the chief pilot asking me to explain my absence, perhaps a review of our available reserves and most likely "Hey, we can't cover you. Either get to work or turn in your wings"

Then I'd be off in a DC-4 with passengers and a nasty sinus infection, get spatial disorientation in the clouds, crash and burn.

Pilot error! He flew while he was sick! Got lost in the clouds and killed those innocent people!

20 passengers times whatever the standard Geneva Convention "cost of a human life" was back then and it's usually a small enough amount to risk the pilot into conducting the flight.

So knowing what I know now, and hearing people who haven't dug deeper than last month's issue of "Professional Pilot" magazine talk about how airlines don't need organized labor drives most fly-to-put-food-on-the-tables pilots a little crazy.

[RPM]

So whats with Skywest? Non-union, pilots i've talked with seem very happy, and their doing well without a union.

[Doug Taylor]

Skywest has an in-house union. Probably called an "association" because the word 'union' evokes evil thoughts from the general population.

As long as an airline supports it's employees, everything is hunky dory.

[RPM]

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Skywest has an in-house union. Probably called an "association" because the word 'union' evokes evil thoughts from the general population.

As long as an airline supports it's employees, everything is hunky dory.

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ahh, OK - I didn't know they had an "association" , that helps to explain things.

Thanks uniba.."cough"...I mean Doug

[Doug Taylor]

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Thanks uniba.."cough"...I mean Doug

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Oh that "I.N." is a wacky guy!

[aloft]

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Indeed ... so close, yet so far. Crazy world, eh?

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"...just two ships that pass in the night..."

[jtrain609]

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C'mon now. Blatent and outright violence in these picket-line situations cannot be condoned in any way, nor can the "thug mentality". It's neither legal nor moral. And to try to justify it isn't right. It's no different than someone that gets layed-off from a job, then returns the next day with an AK-47 and kills some people......his definition of getting "curb stomped".

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Sorry I should have defined that a little more (tried to as much as I could without taking 30 minutes to look over my past). What I meant in that instance of curb stomp, I didn't mean finding the guy and kicking the crap out of him; I meant more like he's never going to find a job ever again in this industry and he's going to hurt when he can't feed his family, which is the exact same position he puts union members in when he crosses a picket line. There was another varition of this phrase where I said that managment should be curb stomped. By that I don't mean finding them and breaking their knee's; I mean like they loose their jobs because they can't find anyone to work for them (the first statement would be a nessecary condition for the second to work).

Anyways, I'm a frigging pacifist, and I'm not sure I really got the muscle to actually curb stomp someone, AK or not.

Clear as mud?

[Doug Taylor]

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Clear as mud?

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Clear as a heavy lead curtain my friend!

(Quick! Name the punk band whose lyric that is!)

[MikeD]

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Clear as mud?

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Clear as a heavy lead curtain my friend!

(Quick! Name the punk band whose lyric that is!)

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Jesus Loves Jezebel?

[Bog]

As Doug remembers and Tony can relate, when I was in business classes during my 1st and 2nd senior years of college, I was big time anti-union. Pretty crazy that I was even working as an hourly employee at UPS during the same time period, a company which is heavily unionized.

Newsweek or some similar pub noted last year that, over the last 10 or 20 years, regular employee wages had increased 100% to keep up with things. Senior management compensation had risen 1000%. Yes, 1000%. Tell me they deserve that much more than you or I.

Like Doug, I too got a case of something during the last week. I was diagnosed with an upper respiratory infection and placed on prescription antibiotics. After 48 hours, if all is well, I'm legal to fly. However, if I don't feel well then it is my responsibility to call in sick again. Granted, I won't be threatened with my job, but it will not surprise me if I need to speak with at least one chief pilot about my illness. Anything goes wrong, I will comfortably know that the union will back me up.

Think Enron. Adelphia. Worldcom. How many people got screwed in all of those deals. My roomy hates his job because, in typical Corporate Amerika fashion, it's all about the top 1% of management. Unions are starting to make a comeback, and will continue to do so as the need exists.

[Doug Taylor]

It's "Gene Loves Jezebel", but nice try!

Hint: Stranger Than Fiction

[Bog]

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It's "Gene Loves Jezebel", but nice try!

Hint: Stranger Than Fiction

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Dangit I know this one, too! Argh!

[Bog]

Hey look, we're on page 5 already and Cristl hasn't even posted in this thread.

[flyover]

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The quandry of professional aviation.

On one hand enjoying the spoils of collective bargaining, but then having a distaste for the tactics used to garner those spoils.

Where's Confuscious when we need him?

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Agree. Airline pilots needed to band together for many reasons. As you said, pilot pushing was probably the biggest one. Pilots and the industry will suffer without such an association.

If ALPA manuvers through this and remains a national union I will be amazed. If they do the leadership deserves all credit. I think their bad judgment on scope will be their ultimate undoing.

[Minnesota_Flyer]

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If ALPA manuvers through this and remains a national union I will be amazed. If they do the leadership deserves all credit. I think their bad judgment on scope will be their ultimate undoing.

[/ QUOTE ] Explain, please.

[Mr_Creepy]

some definitions:

Open Shop: Union membership is optional, as well as Union Dues.
Closed Shop: Union membership is optional, but you are charged dues anyway.
Fixed Shop (very rare): You MUST join the Union

I agree with Doug's earlier remarks. It's easy to bash the union until you are in trouble, and then they are your bestest buddy.

[flyover]

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I think unions are necessary, but I don't agree with all their tactics. I think management is necessary, but I don't agree with all their tactics either.

And it is an interesting question, objectively speaking, of who creates/maintains/updates said scab list?

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Lists are created and maintained outside the purview of official union activity because it would expose them to labor law violations and civil liability. In cases where lists of any kind are published by a union they make sure they are accompanied by admonishments to not use them for harrassment. An example is most pilot groups will strongly direct their members to not use scab lists for jumpseat denial.

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What is the realistic accuracy of it? Is it possible that there are people on it that shouldn't have been put on or were unfairly put on? At the same time, are there people that aren't on it that should be?

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Of course all those things are possible. In an endeavor such as this you are counting on the integrity of the individuals creating the list. How high do you think the personal integrity is of people who do some of the things that are done on these lists? They are all about getting even and making other's lives miserable. Some think it's a rightous cause. I have heard of people who feel they were wronged by a list or who have had to deal with having the same name as someone on the list.

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How does the good scab/bad scab deal work?

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There is no such thing. The CAL situation was one of moving on from an event that was decades old. It was in the best interests of CAL and ALPA for them to be back in the fold. It furthers the cause of unionized pilots. It's a "bury the hatchet" move that's best for all concerned. I've flown with at least one pilot who others called a scab. He was one of my favorite co-pilots and quite willing to talk about the situation. I think his ability to survive had a lot to do with being 6'3" and not afraid of anyone.

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Is it a matter of conveniance? Can a "bad scab" lobby or make his case to be status-changed to a "scab in good standing"? Are there any bylaws covering this?

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No bylaws that I'm aware of. Identifying someone as a scab and selecting them for retribution is done below the level of official union activity. It is a vigilante operation. Now if someone has been working at a union carrier and not paying dues there are procedures for bringing them back into "good-standing".

The whole "scab" issue goes directly to personal integrity. I have had friends call me up before a union action at their company and tell me they are sick about it, but that there is no way they will risk being labeled a scab. They feel sick because they know their decision is more about fear than their own integrity. I've had other friends who willingly gave up everything for the cause and never looked back. They feel they've earned the right to call a scab a scab and spit on his grave. I can't argue with that either.

So good luck trying to get this straightened out. I doubt you'll find any official documents that will satisfy you. If you fly struck work you will be a "scab". Many will not care what your reasons were or whether the strike was reasonable or not. There are almost no limits to what being a scab can mean for your life. In the CAL strike some ALPA guys were caught with pipe bombs. I think they said they were just going to scare some people. Now some of these same scabs (who might have been pipe bomb targets) are members in good standing.

[Minnesota_Flyer]

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some definitions:

Open Shop: Union membership is optional, as well as Union Dues.
Closed Shop: Union membership is optional, but you are charged dues anyway.
Fixed Shop (very rare): You MUST join the Union


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A few other legal thoughts:

First, due to constitutional considerations, no employee can be compelled to become a union member in the U.S. An employee may, however, be compelled to pay his/her "fair share" of the costs of running the local bargaining unit. When anyone talks about being compelled to join the union, this really means either joining the union or paying "fair share."

Second, some of you may have heard of "right to work" states. Under the National Labor Relations Act, individual states may decide whether union membership may be compelled (again, either join the union or pay "fair share"). In a state which is a "right to work" state, union membership cannot be compelled at all (not even the payment of "fair share"). Unions cannot thrive in right to work states because there is no way to make unit employees pay for the cost of running even the local unit. Airline pilots (that would be we) are not covered by the NLRA. We are covered by the Railway Labor Act, which does not allow states to make this call. Instead, under the RLA, the employer and the union may enter into a union shop agreement by which all bargaining unit employees must join the union (or pay "fair share").

Finally, keep in mind that there is a limit on what unions or employers may do to punish a scab. An individual employee's choice to join, or not to join, a strike is protected. Just as it is illegal to fire an employee because he strikes, it also is illegal to retaliate against an employee because he refuses to strike.

Hope this helps.
MF

[tonyw]

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So whats with Skywest? Non-union, pilots i've talked with seem very happy, and their doing well without a union.

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Skywest knows that if you treat your employees well, they'll return the favor. Let me tell you a story about Skywest.

I work with their corporate communications director quite a bit. She's at their corporate headquarters.

She knows one of my friends who works as a CSR at SFO on a first name basis.

When you have that kind of an environment, you probably don't need a union. You've got managers who respect and understand the contribution of the employees.

But when managers start seeing employees as costs to be contained instead of resources, then you need a union.