Speaking of Scabs...

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, imagine a big game of "stare down" where management sits on one side of the table and labor sits on the other side of the table.

Both sides have a mutual interest for the game to succeed, but management wants low costs and labor wants wages at least consistent with their efforts.

Both sides eyes are drying rapidly and the tension rises.

Then some 'scab' bounds up, delicately sprays management's eyes with some soothing viseine and does nothing more than extends the game.

Aiding and abetting, and all that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm surprised CAL hasn't imploded from the good scab/bad scab thing.

Are these "reformed scabs" or ones that are "back in good standing" not on the list? I mean, they still scabbed. What is the reform process, or is it "reform in name only"?

[Doug Taylor]

This is just third hand 'gossip' of sorts but I've heard that there's still a clear division between the scabs and the pilots at CAL. I can't confirm or deny beyond listening to jumpseaters talk about commuting long distances to avoid 'being at a kool aid scab base' but that was just a couple of guys in the early 2000's.

From my own selfish perspective, the big ALPA push reinvigorated after Leo Mullin attempted to purchase Continental back in 1998 and a lot of the CAL pilots thought "Holy cow! We don't have merger and fragmentation protections!" so they lobbied for re-entry back into ALPA just in case Leo was successful merging with CAL, that they wouldn't get screwed TWA-style, Reno Air-style or the famous "Red Book"/"Blue Book"-style (NWA).

In terms of what the membership status of the CAL scabs are, I really couldn't tell you. I do know one threw his wife into a wood chipper down in Texas years ago and made big headlines!

That's about all I know. Hell, I don't even really know for certain if any of the above is true, but it's just what I've heard over the years.

[EatSleepFly]

[ QUOTE ]

Well what would you call it, then? Did you, in fact, read any of what I wrote regards the some scabs beng "good scabs" while others are "bad scabs"?

How does that work? I mean, you're the one at the airline and in the union, I'm the outsider. Educate me.

IMO, it smells of hypocrisy, just no one wants to come out and say it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I honestly don't know how one goes about getting magically removed from that list once they've crossed a picket line. Wish I did. It doesn't make sense to me either.

Being at an airline and in a union doesn't make me any expert on it...I'm quite the opposite. I see it fairly clear cut, while in reality its probably more of a gray area than I realize. Who knows.

A guy I used to work with had pretty in-depth knowledge of the CAL scab situation (he was furloughed CAL, now recalled). He explained some of it to me, but I didn't retain too much.

Anyways, didn't mean to snap back at you...I took a little offense to the Kool-Aid comment because I'm trying my best to avoid just that.

[MarineNav]

Hello Doug,

Can't you just get a "no scabbing" clause in the new contract? (Yeah, I'm a simpleton). From my point of view, at least, all unions ought to stick together and all contracts oughts to cover all bases (points).

Thanks,

JR

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Well what would you call it, then? Did you, in fact, read any of what I wrote regards the some scabs beng "good scabs" while others are "bad scabs"?

How does that work? I mean, you're the one at the airline and in the union, I'm the outsider. Educate me.

IMO, it smells of hypocrisy, just no one wants to come out and say it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I honestly don't know how one goes about getting magically removed from that list once they've crossed a picket line. Wish I did. It doesn't make sense to me either.

Being at an airline and in a union doesn't make me any expert on it...I'm quite the opposite. I see it fairly clear cut, while in reality its probably more of a gray area than I realize. Who knows.

A guy I used to work with had pretty in-depth knowledge of the CAL scab situation (he was furloughed CAL, now recalled). He explained some of it to me, but I didn't retain too much.

Anyways, didn't mean to snap back at you...I took a little offense to the Kool-Aid comment because I'm trying my best to avoid just that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know what you mean, partner. And allow me to explain my position a little bit better, since I was unclear. For one, I support the union concept as a necessary protection against uncaring management. That being said, each and every airline guy I've talked to seemingly refrains from ever criticizing the union when it might be due....like there's some fear of being labled "traitor" or something if they say anything critical. I mean, lets call a spade a spade when necessary. If ALPA, as a union, is anti-scab (and rightfully so), I've got to wonder why it is that they'd allow certain scabs to be "reformed" and hold union positions, such as it is with the CAL situation. That's just my inquiring mind wanting to know. I very much respect that you admit you don't know why it is, ESF; heck, I don't know why it is! I wish I did, especially as an outsider looking in. What's to say that this won't happen again with, say, United or someone else regards two "classes" of scabs? Again, having the union is good, don't get me wrong. I just wonder why there's seemingly a "see no evil, hear no evil" thought process regarding some of the ways they operate.

BTW....hope the ATR gig is going good. I always liked the -72, since it was, in my day of "coming up the ranks", the king of regional planes before all this RJ stuff started making it's appearance. I still it's one of the coolest out there.

[PhilosopherPilot]

Being from the South, and being part of "management" in a non-aviation company in Philly, I truly have a strong distaste for unions. I know they have served good purpose in the past, and serve good purpose now in some situations. What really gets my blood boiling are the thug tactics to manipulate non-members, or even members to do what they ask.

I am sorry, but attacking people physically or with lists such as this is morally reprehensible.

I am not familliar with the aviation unions, and it may be the case that they are not as morally bankrupt as the other labor unions such as the Teamsters. But my experience with unions has been far from pleasant in the past, and I will consider the day I join a union the day that I have compromised my principles.

If the aviation unions are truly different, then I am willing to review my position.

Grayson

[TallBoy85]

Come on JonnyB I had to wait more than 12 hours to feel like a retard because of you. You're the wanker you $&^@. I'm not even going to dignify that with a smiley face.

This is a great thread...I'm glad to see there's a very mellow feeling regarding the animosity directed towards pilots who intentionally crossed the picket lines, and I'm glad there's not more animosity towards those who dared to stand up to their union and say enough is enough you guys aren't doing the job we wanted you to do. But I am glad that the animosity is there. With "free" scabbing, the system would fall apart and airlines like Comair would have gotten NOTHING accomplished for us "small jet" flyers.

It's very easy to become a part of ALPA and I'm glad that through the pizza and cokes I got while I listend to our ALPA reps give their little powerpoint presentation I became part of a very well organized and supportive union. And while I still may sit in a giant pile of dung as far as airlines are concerned (that's what YOU think...NOT me) I know that I'm an ALPA member entitled to certain priviledges.

Thank you MikeD for your statement that this is a slanderous list. Who's to say if its even correct and how would we feel if we wrongfully ended up on it? Lets just hope the keeper of this list is conservative enough to have multiple sources of data to back up his list, even though his actions are overly aggressive.

As for an anti-scabber clause in a contract, I'm sure there would be if there wasn't some law against it. The union laws are probably many times thicker than the FARs. But the bottom line is pretty simple. You're in a union for a reason, either get involved or go with the flow because there are no other options that I've seen unless you're put on "a list". I know people know the "a list" I'm talking about.

I'm not even that much of a wanker...frickin Foxtrot named airline.

[EatSleepFly]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW....hope the ATR gig is going good. I always liked the -72, since it was, in my day of "coming up the ranks", the king of regional planes before all this RJ stuff started making it's appearance. I still it's one of the coolest out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its going great...class and CPT is all done, just have my oral on Tuesday, and then more sims and the checkride. Its quite a beast of a plane. Big, decently automated (not compared to a -117, but you know... ), very quiet, and gets in and out of short runways nicely. Roomier inside than the CRJ700 and holds 66 pax. The -212A, which I'll be flying most now that I'm MIA-based, has a MTOW of just shy of 50,000 lbs.

[/thread hijack]

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
Being from the South, and being part of "management" in a non-aviation company in Philly, I truly have a strong distaste for unions. I know they have served good purpose in the past, and serve good purpose now in some situations. What really gets my blood boiling are the thug tactics to manipulate non-members, or even members to do what they ask.

I am sorry, but attacking people physically or with lists such as this is morally reprehensible.

I am not familliar with the aviation unions, and it may be the case that they are not as morally bankrupt as the other labor unions such as the Teamsters. But my experience with unions has been far from pleasant in the past, and I will consider the day I join a union the day that I have compromised my principles.

If the aviation unions are truly different, then I am willing to review my position.

Grayson

[/ QUOTE ]

I think unions are necessary, but I don't agree with all their tactics. I think management is necessary, but I don't agree with all their tactics either. Bottom line in what I'm trying to do with this thread is separate the wheat from the chaff...because in-between the BS from both sides, union and management, lies the truth.

I disagree with union thug tactics and the "vote our way or we break your knees and burn down your house" mentality; just as much as I disagree with the "we need more wage concessions from you guys because we need to maintain our 6-figure salaries as management.....the 40% you've given already isn't cutting it" mentality.

We can talk management BS in another thread, or even later in this one. But the scope of this thread is how does one support their union's overall objectives, while still being able to call BS on stuff that is BS?

And it is an interesting question, objectively speaking, of who creates/maintains/updates said scab list? What is the realistic accuracy of it? Is it possible that there are people on it that shouldn't have been put on or were unfairly put on? At the same time, are there people that aren't on it that should be? How does the good scab/bad scab deal work? Is it a matter of conveniance? Can a "bad scab" lobby or make his case to be status-changed to a "scab in good standing"? Are there any bylaws covering this?

Again, I'm just an outsider trying to use some critical thinking, and take an objective look at why certain things are the way they are. Separate the truth from hypocrisy; and turn away free Kool-Aid offerings, so to speak, from both management as well as the union.

Anyone wanting to help in this investigation, hop on board.......

[stuckingfk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Being from the South, and being part of "management" in a non-aviation company in Philly, I truly have a strong distaste for unions. I know they have served good purpose in the past, and serve good purpose now in some situations. What really gets my blood boiling are the thug tactics to manipulate non-members, or even members to do what they ask.

I am sorry, but attacking people physically or with lists such as this is morally reprehensible.

I am not familliar with the aviation unions, and it may be the case that they are not as morally bankrupt as the other labor unions such as the Teamsters. But my experience with unions has been far from pleasant in the past, and I will consider the day I join a union the day that I have compromised my principles.

If the aviation unions are truly different, then I am willing to review my position.

Grayson

[/ QUOTE ]

I think unions are necessary, but I don't agree with all their tactics. I think management is necessary, but I don't agree with all their tactics either. Bottom line in what I'm trying to do with this thread is separate the wheat from the chaff...because in-between the BS from both sides, union and management, lies the truth.

I disagree with union thug tactics and the "vote our way or we break your knees and burn down your house" mentality; just as much as I disagree with the "we need more wage concessions from you guys because we need to maintain our 6-figure salaries as management.....the 40% you've given already isn't cutting it" mentality.

We can talk management BS in another thread, or even later in this one. But the scope of this thread is how does one support their union's overall objectives, while still being able to call BS on stuff that is BS?

And it is an interesting question, objectively speaking, of who creates/maintains/updates said scab list? What is the realistic accuracy of it? Is it possible that there are people on it that shouldn't have been put on or were unfairly put on? At the same time, are there people that aren't on it that should be? How does the good scab/bad scab deal work? Is it a matter of conveniance? Can a "bad scab" lobby or make his case to be status-changed to a "scab in good standing"? Are there any bylaws covering this?

Again, I'm just an outsider trying to use some critical thinking, and take an objective look at why certain things are the way they are. Separate the truth from hypocrisy; and turn away free Kool-Aid offerings, so to speak, from both management as well as the union.



[/ QUOTE ]

I think the posting of this list is a lot like everyone who posts links to articles on newspaper websites. We all know that reporters don't know SQUAT about aviation.

If you read a newspaper today, someone is always being arrested for something. I know the papers usually say they alledgely did the crime, but EVERYONE still thinks they are guilty, even though they aren't (i.e. Kobe, and many many others). Look at all the negative press about that, but he didn't even go to trial. But people still think he is a rapist.

I don't think it was wrong to post the link, otherwise JetCareers shouldn't allow all other links. Who knows if those are true, but we don't seem to have a problem posting those.....

[jtrain609]

This is in reply to Grayson, but it holds generally I think.

This is my point of view on unions, after seeing the havoc that big business can bring to a community.

To me, managment is the devil. Their goal is to try to extract as much as possible from their workers for the least amount of money. That means that they will screw workers as often as the oppertunity presents itself, simply by the definition of managment (extract as much as possible with less money). I've worked jobs where that has happened as I'm sure most people have. One in particular (that I continue to complain about) was Toys-R-Us (TRU). While it might seem that this situation wouldn't matter at such a low level job, the local economy in which I was trying to find work in was so depressed that college educated folks were taking retail jobs at TRU because they had lost the jobs that their degree's had gotten them. Managment well knew that they had people busting down their door to make $5.40 an hour, and would fire someone every 2-3 weeks as an example to make sure everyone knew they were serious. This place needed a union as managment was horrible. Now I know a few of you are going to say "Just go work somewhere else!" That's great, until you have a 4 year degree in computer science and can't find work within 100 miles better than TRU and you have a family to feed and bills to pay. The fact of the matter is that sometimes the jobs are not there, and I don't believe that means it should be open season on employee's to bend over just so they have a poorly paying entry level position. That's extortion if you ask me. As such, TRU won't be around much longer; their employee's will probably end up bleeding the company to death. Good riddance, it should teach some of the managment how NOT to treat their employee's.

Now contrast that with my current job. My boss has bent over backwards to take care of me, and as such I've busted butt for the guy to do whatever I can to help him out. If he's got another job for me, I'm there without complaint beacuse I KNOW that he's going to take care of me. We're not paid the best (what student's ever are?), but we're well taken care of. We get treated well, and we'll do a lot for our managment.

To me, airlines that have unions have done something to deserve unions (line stolen from Russ). There are some company's out there without unions, and I wouldn't have any problem working for them if they want to take care of their employee's. But if an airline want's to do everything that all the mainline carriers have done in the past (most noteable to me, the CAL and Eastern Airlines strikes), then bring the union on. Break managment's legs; they have it coming to them. If you want to treat your employee's horribly and try to extort them just so you can make a few more million then you deserve to have a union on grounds.

I'm all ready to make nice with company's that want to play fair, but after you work a few crappy jobs with horrible managment because you can't find anything else, or you drive around Flint, MI a little while and see the devistation that GM caused you start to think a little differently. That's great for ya'll that enjoy getting extorted by your employer, and want to defend them doing so; but I won't. Furthermore, if you are walking across a picket line and want to take my job then you are taking a stab at ME and MY FAMILY. It's scabs that destroy people's lives when they are trying to better themselves. Imagine the outcry if France started bombing U.S. military bases during the Iraq war beacuse they didn't agree with our invasion. Don't agree with a strike? Fine, but don't dare try to cross it less you want to get your own self curb stomped; just like we would have done to France if they had started bombing us. It's no different to me.

Managment always throws the first punch in these situations, and they deserve to get curb stomped if they want to treat their employee's like dirt.

BTW: Definition of curb stomp; to forcefully place one's head between your foot and a curb. Also known as what the University of Toledo's football team did to Western Michigan's football team the other night.

[PhilosopherPilot]

I agree with MikeD on this one. It is interesting, intellectually speaking, to take a critical look at lists such as these, as well as other manipulation tactics.

In no way in my previous post did I suggest that the management is correct in their actions. I just think it is hard for the union to say they are on the moral high ground and doing what is right for the average man when they allow thug tactics to go on.

Again, I don't know if aviation unions suffer from the same problems as other unions. It would be nice to get some insight into this.

Grayson

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore, if you are walking across a picket line and want to take my job then you are taking a stab at ME and MY FAMILY. It's scabs that destroy people's lives when they are trying to better themselves. Imagine the outcry if France started bombing U.S. military bases during the Iraq war beacuse they didn't agree with our invasion. Don't agree with a strike? Fine, but don't dare try to cross it less you want to get your own self curb stomped; just like we would have done to France if they had started bombing us. It's no different to me.



[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon now. Blatent and outright violence in these picket-line situations cannot be condoned in any way, nor can the "thug mentality". It's neither legal nor moral. And to try to justify it isn't right. It's no different than someone that gets layed-off from a job, then returns the next day with an AK-47 and kills some people......his definition of getting "curb stomped".

[Doug Taylor]

I think one important distinction that needs to be made is that the union doesn't keep a specific "scab list". There are members that aren't in good standing for either flying struck work or taking place in activities that are against the best interests of the company and the union at large.

[flyover]

The idea of getting branded a "scab" is a union pressure tactic pure and simple. By reducing it to the scarlet letter, the Star of David sewn on the sleeve, you scare people into toeing the line. It is not a very high-minded principle.

The problem is that not all union actions are right or smart. Mobs will do crazy things that individuals won't . To me the most vivid example was the Patco strike. The controllers I knew loved their jobs, were well paid and did not want to leave their professions. But they had some crazy leadership and they linked arms and went over the cliff with them. I'd put the CAL strike in very nearly that mold. There were elements of it at EAL too. But the fear of being labeled a scab is powerful stuff, and a necessary tool if unions are going to achieve full "loyalty".

I never got put in that position so I never had to make that decision. But I never decided that I would automatically follow my union if I thought they were taking us over a cliff.

As for MikeD's "good scab/bad scab" dilemma that is the problem. It is not that easy. That whole mentality is a collectivist mentality that I just can't get comfortable with. There are other loyalties involved here. There is loyalty to company and family that comes into these decisions. That was huge in the CAL strike as many pilots thought they were being asked to sacrifice their careers and their company for an ALPA vendetta against Frank Lorenzo. Anybody who says they know the "right" decision in that case is full of it in my opinion.

[Doug Taylor]

The quandry of professional aviation.

On one hand enjoying the spoils of collective bargaining, but then having a distaste for the tactics used to garner those spoils.

Where's Confuscious when we need him?

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
The idea of getting branded a "scab" is a union pressure tactic pure and simple. By reducing it to the scarlet letter, the Star of David sewn on the sleeve, you scare people into toeing the line. It is not a very high-minded principle.

The problem is that not all union actions are right or smart. Mobs will do crazy things that individuals won't . To me the most vivid example was the Patco strike. The controllers I knew loved their jobs, were well paid and did not want to leave their professions. But they had some crazy leadership and they linked arms and went over the cliff with them. I'd put the CAL strike in very nearly that mold. There were elements of it at EAL too. But the fear of being labeled a scab is powerful stuff, and a necessary tool if unions are going to achieve full "loyalty".

I never got put in that position so I never had to make that decision. But I never decided that I would automatically follow my union if I thought they were taking us over a cliff.

As for MikeD's "good scab/bad scab" dilemma that is the problem. It is not that easy. That whole mentality is a collectivist mentality that I just can't get comfortable with. There are other loyalties involved here. There is loyalty to company and family that comes into these decisions. That was huge in the CAL strike as many pilots thought they were being asked to sacrifice their careers and their company for an ALPA vendetta against Frank Lorenzo. Anybody who says they know the "right" decision in that case is full of it in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good discussion.

Some people talk of the US turning into a country where we're going to soon need to sign the proverbial "loyality oaths", as it goes, with the various political leadership reps we have or might have. Could it be said that with unions and some of the tactics they employ, they're already at that stage? Could it be said the same with management?

[Doug Taylor]

[ QUOTE ]
Some people talk of the US turning into a country where we're going to soon need to sign the proverbial "loyality oaths", as it goes, with the various political leadership reps we have or might have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey! Sounds like a topic debated over at arguepolitics!

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Some people talk of the US turning into a country where we're going to soon need to sign the proverbial "loyality oaths", as it goes, with the various political leadership reps we have or might have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey! Sounds like a topic debated over at arguepolitics!

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol. I know, I know....I'm trying to desperately keep it aviation oriented, though, and keep the sidebars to a minimum.

[PhilosopherPilot]

Forgive my ingorance, but can one be an airline pilot without joining the union? I know that in certain states, such as PA, if I work at a Union shop, I must join the union, regardless of my preference. (Yet another reason I don't like them.)

G

[Doug Taylor]

[ QUOTE ]
Forgive my ingorance, but can one be an airline pilot without joining the union? I know that in certain states, such as PA, if I work at a Union shop, I must join the union, regardless of my preference. (Yet another reason I don't like them.)

G

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't have to join, but you'll pay a 'contract maintenance fee' equal to union dues. And you should!

Everyone bashes ALPA up until the day they call ALPA Aeromedical when they bust their medical or talks trash until they bend an airplane and dial up the Accident Hotline.

[DE727UPS]

At UPS you must join the union. I think my dues are well worth the return.

At DL, you can choose to not join the union but you still have to pay the same union dues, and you gain the benefit of the same contract, as if you were in the union.

[Doug Taylor]

Kind of like moving into a landscaped, clean neighborhood and refusing to pay the HOA fees...

[DE727UPS]

"But I am glad that the animosity is there."

How do you feel about the "Freedom list"? How much animosity is there towards the initial Freedom guys?

[N9103M]

[ QUOTE ]

Everyone bases ALPA up until the day they call ALPA Aeromedical when they bust their medical or talks trash until they bend an airplane and dial up the Accident Hotline.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent point... Most people just see ALPA as a giant collective barganing agent. But the interlying services it makes available to it's members are well worth the dues.

As far as the scab list is concerned, I think it's presence should not be shunned. It is a useful teaching tool to show people entering this industry how the descisons you make will follow you for the rest of your career. There are two types of scabs on that list. You have the Scabs that were already employed and crossed, and you have the Scabs that got hired for the specific purpose of Scabbing.

Now that United captain that wrote that artice fell into that latter category, TWICE. That is incredible. When Wein pilots stuck over the hire/fire policy in 1977, she decided she woud undermine thier efforts and cross to fly. Well after the WAA pilots came back to work in 1979, she had to hit the streets. Management had no love for the scabs, they lost all of thier seniority and she was furloughed indefinately. Now when she got "hired" (As a Scab) at UAL in 1985, she was able to retain her seniority and hire date, much like the CAL scabs in 1983. I can assure you for the past 20 years she has been flying in a very silent cockpit.

Thats something to consider, if ever you are faced with having to decide to walk or cross, think of the rest of your career and how the pilots that walked will treat you. Some forget, but many do not.