Speaking of Scabs... - Page 2

MikeD · October 10th, 2004, 02:28

I personally don't think the scab list should be posted here. Incriminating accusations such as theft, cocaine use, etc. Unproven allegations like that on a "list" is the equilivent to outright slander. How do we know if it's true or not? How do we know that the people on said list really did what they did.....or that they didn't just piss the wrong person off and getting put on the "list" is their retribution. Also, gleefully labling someone as DEAD when in fact they are, is about as poor form as one can get, and takes the meaning of "sour grapes" to a new low.

So much for professionalism........

Rausda, Montana, Kell, RPM, Wannabe, IRuppert, ESF, Iain. Think about this. What's to say someone doesn't get pissed off and put you on the list down the road? I'm sure there's no due-process for determining who goes on the list, and I'm sure going on is far easier than coming off.

My original question wasn't any intent to name names, and frankly, I'm pretty pissed off that some have taken my original post to that kind of low. My only intent was to ask why, if ALPA is so against scabs, that they are in the ALPA hierarchy at CAL? Is ALPA willing to look the other way when it suits their needs? THAT'S all I wanted to know.

And the only person that hit the nail on the head in this thread is Bog.

kellwolf · October 10th, 2004, 02:37

Mike, I agree with you that unproven allegations shouldn't be on the list. I really have no opinion on if posting the list was "good form" or not. It's Doug's living room, IMO. If he doesn't think it's cool, he'll let someone know and fix it. Otherwise, I just go with the flow.

From what I've been able to garner from reading what little bit of "Flying the Line Vol II" I've made if from, ALPA is a business first and a union second. Their main objective is to stay in business. If that means looking the other way to bring Continental back into the fold, then they'll do it. If it means running both sides of the scope clause on contracts, they'll do that, too. No one get me wrong, I'm not against ALPA existing. If it weren't for ALPA pilots would all either be flying for McDonald's wages or flying 40-60 hour WEEKS with little rest in-between.

MikeD · October 10th, 2004, 02:41

[ QUOTE ]
Mike, I agree with you that unproven allegations shouldn't be on the list. I really have no opinion on if posting the list was "good form" or not. It's Doug's living room, IMO. If he doesn't think it's cool, he'll let someone know and fix it. Otherwise, I just go with the flow.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's all good. I was just posting some personal "food for thought" for anyone's consumption.......just some angles that I worry might not be getting looked at.

[ QUOTE ]

From what I've been able to garner from reading what little bit of "Flying the Line Vol II" I've made if from, ALPA is a business first and a union second. Their main objective is to stay in business. If that means looking the other way to bring Continental back into the fold, then they'll do it. If it means running both sides of the scope clause on contracts, they'll do that, too. No one get me wrong, I'm not against ALPA existing. If it weren't for ALPA pilots would all either be flying for McDonald's wages or flying 40-60 hour WEEKS with little rest in-between.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree overall, I just sort of wonder whether all the anti-scab talk by the union, which then turns around and "accepts" the alleged scabbers when it suits their needs....if that borders on hypocrisy. And if so, why this hypocrisy is accepted, while political hypocrisy (flip flopping Kerry......double-story Bush) isn't?

I_Money · October 10th, 2004, 04:30

I have no problem with removing the list, however JC is not producing the list, or utilizing it as policy here on JetCareers - out only involvement is providing a link so that up and comers can see what exactly is being discussed. We are also not encouraging people to use it, or promoting it in anyway.

I personally think the whole scab thing is over the top the way it is managed in the airline industry, but I am not much of a union supporter so it is not surprising.

Doug Taylor · October 10th, 2004, 05:10

And off-site link is dandy, but considering it's been a energetic, but flame-free discussion, it's actually a very interesting thread.

Love it or hate it, that's the reality of what civilian commercial pilots have to deal with. Which is why I always suggest people read "Flying the Line" as a primer on management-pilot relations and how perfectly the 'pilot psyche' ("gotta get mine before you get yours"/"if I don't take it, someone else will, so I might as well") is turned around and used on pilots.

Sure the books written with a 'pilot slant', but considering all of the news (local, (inter)national and financial) has a markedly 'management' slant, it's a good start.

It's a valid discussion and as long as people keep it friendly and on-topic, it'll serve as a good learning tool.

Mr_Creepy · October 10th, 2004, 08:59

If anyone needs the scab list PM me and I will email it to you.

I would like to see it posted. That's one of the main deterrents to scabbing, knowing you will be "on a list."

SteveC · October 10th, 2004, 09:22

Thread related question: What happens when there is more than one pilot with the same name, one scab and one not? Is there differentiation made somewhere publicly?

Or, what if someone happens to have the same name as a scab, and is trying to get into the profession?

Curious minds....

flyover · October 10th, 2004, 11:14

[ QUOTE ]
I personally don't think the scab list should be posted here. Incriminating accusations such as theft, cocaine use, etc. Unproven allegations like that on a "list" is the equilivent to outright slander.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

[ QUOTE ]
My only intent was to ask why, if ALPA is so against scabs, that they are in the ALPA hierarchy at CAL? Is ALPA willing to look the other way when it suits their needs? THAT'S all I wanted to know.

And the only person that hit the nail on the head in this thread is Bog.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think ALPA leadership recognized that this strike had some unique aspects to it. For one it was badly handled by ALPA. I always felt the people at CAL were put in a position they shouldn't have been put in, and I believe if ALPA had it to do over they would not have struck. Leaving the property played right into Lorenzo's hands. Years later it was time to look ahead and bringing CAL back into the ALPA fold was an important part of that.

There is nothing easier than criticising someone who has faced something you haven't had to. Reducing them to a "scab" dehumanizes them and makes it easy to feel superior. It's an age-old, much too often used, mechanism.

ALPA leadership was a little bigger than that and that's what leadership is for.

EatSleepFly · October 10th, 2004, 11:18

[ QUOTE ]
Rausda, Montana, Kell, RPM, Wannabe, IRuppert, ESF, Iain. Think about this. What's to say someone doesn't get pissed off and put you on the list down the road?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because its a list of people who have actually walked across a picket line. Its not a black list that you end up on if you piss off the wrong person for whatever other reason. There's only one way to get on it, and only one way to stay off it.

DE727UPS · October 10th, 2004, 13:17

"I just sort of wonder whether all the anti-scab talk by the union, which then turns around and "accepts" the alleged scabbers when it suits their needs"

Yeah...that's a bad deal and I'm sure a lot of CAL guys were against it. I wish we had a CAL pilot of two on the board to talk about it.

We have a VERY unique situation at UPS. There are about 2500 line guys and 200 plus (I'm guessing here) "management pilots". Some come from the IPA ranks for the nearly instant upgrade to Capt the company wants managers to be. Some are hired straight into management. They make a little more than a line Capt plus stock bonuses. They have no union, and are not a part of our pilot group. They have no work rules other than FAR's. They have no "protection" from the company. In my view, they work a lot harder than I do.

During the UPS teamsters strike a while back they were able to keep a fraction of the flight operation running for two weeks while the IPA guys walked the picket line with the teamsters.

I know MikeD lost a job over that but we all do what we have to do. (do you ever think about where you'd be if you that hadn't happened?...prolly not where you are now) I'd walk again if we call a legal strike (it takes a lot of time and effort to get there) and I'd walk away from the career, if need be.

I see it as kind of like nuclear war. You have to be prepared to do it for it to be a credible deterrent. At the same time, you realize that if you do it.....it's all over. I'm prepared for that.

kellwolf · October 10th, 2004, 14:00

[ QUOTE ]
Or, what if someone happens to have the same name as a scab, and is trying to get into the profession?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good question. I doubt they publish SS#s to match the names to. I just don't want it to degenerate into a TSA-like name mix-up.

I also agree with Flyover's assessment of ALPA's handling of the CAL strike. Reading "Flying the Line" has convinced me to alter my minor from Aviation Safety to Airline Management. It's nice to be able to "get in management's head." Makes it easier to see their point of view come contract negotiations as well as recognize traps they like to set for the pilot group. One of the major problems ALPA had was support from the rank and file CAL pilots. Before their own strike, line pilots had crossed picket lines for CAL FA and mechanics. Lorenzo even got extra sleazy and called striking pilots at home to shmooze them into crossing picket lines. When the MEC wavered (and their chairmen collapsed from exhaustion), 110 pilots lost faith in their negotiating and crossed the line.

Mr_Creepy · October 10th, 2004, 14:03

[ QUOTE ]

I think ALPA leadership recognized that this strike had some unique aspects to it. For one it was badly handled by ALPA. I always felt the people at CAL were put in a position they shouldn't have been put in, and I believe if ALPA had it to do over they would not have struck. Leaving the property played right into Lorenzo's hands. Years later it was time to look ahead and bringing CAL back into the ALPA fold was an important part of that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to jump on this. Yeah there was some bad handling. Yeah Lorenzo is a Capital A-hole that ALPA tries to make look like the anti-christ. Yeah the "people" are back in ALPA but they are still scabs. They crossed a picket line to take jobs from union workers.

Post the list. And keep posting it!

MikeD · October 10th, 2004, 14:11

[quoteWe have a VERY unique situation at UPS. There are about 2500 line guys and 200 plus (I'm guessing here) "management pilots". Some come from the IPA ranks for the nearly instant upgrade to Capt the company wants managers to be. Some are hired straight into management. They make a little more than a line Capt plus stock bonuses. They have no union, and are not a part of our pilot group. They have no work rules other than FAR's. They have no "protection" from the company. In my view, they work a lot harder than I do.

During the UPS teamsters strike a while back they were able to keep a fraction of the flight operation running for two weeks while the IPA guys walked the picket line with the teamsters.

I know MikeD lost a job over that but we all do what we have to do. (do you ever think about where you'd be if you that hadn't happened?...prolly not where you are now) I'd walk again if we call a legal strike (it takes a lot of time and effort to get there) and I'd walk away from the career, if need be.

I

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol. I remember back then at PHX....the UPS jet would show up, the pilots would deplane. I'd then see them walk the picket line for a bit before they got back on the plane that night to go fly. All the while, I'm at work since I'm supposed to be there, with my plane at the cargo ramp ready to take cargo, if any. Only to find out that there was none, and I could taxi back to my own ramp. That was the summary of about the last 2.5 weeks with my company. lol Least I was getting paid to do nothing but lounge in the back of my cargo plane all day and read a book.

I do wonder where I'd be now had that fork in the road never happened....

MikeD · October 10th, 2004, 14:15

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Rausda, Montana, Kell, RPM, Wannabe, IRuppert, ESF, Iain. Think about this. What's to say someone doesn't get pissed off and put you on the list down the road?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because its a list of people who have actually walked across a picket line. Its not a black list that you end up on if you piss off the wrong person for whatever other reason. There's only one way to get on it, and only one way to stay off it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You sure about that? Willing to bet your career on it? Have that much blind faith in the union to bet the come line on it? The same union that let the scabs back in and put them in good faith? After that move by them, I wouldn't trust them much more than I could throw them...you know, know that they're there, but always keep one eye on them.....

Talk about Kool-Aid drinking.

Who really manages this list, and what's the "due process" for getting on and off of it?

I personally don't care for scabs that much; but then again, I don't know any of those guys from Adam that are on that list. But I do believe in the concept of due process. How do I know that list is accurate were I ever to choose to use it?

Bog · October 10th, 2004, 14:19

[ QUOTE ]
Lol. I remember back then at PHX....the UPS jet would show up, the pilots would deplane. I'd then see them walk the picket line for a bit before they got back on the plane that night to go fly. All the while, I'm at work since I'm supposed to be there, with my plane at the cargo ramp ready to take cargo, if any. Only to find out that there was none, and I could taxi back to my own ramp. That was the summary of about the last 2.5 weeks with my company. lol Least I was getting paid to do nothing but lounge in the back of my cargo plane all day and read a book.

I do wonder where I'd be now had that fork in the road never happened....

[/ QUOTE ]

Dang, were you with Scenic or Ameriflight at that point? I think I'd already left UPS at that point which is probably why I don't remember seeing you in feederville. I do remember seeing three aircraft each night turned into one which never left full.

MikeD · October 10th, 2004, 14:23

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lol. I remember back then at PHX....the UPS jet would show up, the pilots would deplane. I'd then see them walk the picket line for a bit before they got back on the plane that night to go fly. All the while, I'm at work since I'm supposed to be there, with my plane at the cargo ramp ready to take cargo, if any. Only to find out that there was none, and I could taxi back to my own ramp. That was the summary of about the last 2.5 weeks with my company. lol Least I was getting paid to do nothing but lounge in the back of my cargo plane all day and read a book.

I do wonder where I'd be now had that fork in the road never happened....

[/ QUOTE ]

Dang, were you with Scenic or Ameriflight at that point? I think I'd already left UPS at that point which is probably why I don't remember seeing you in feederville. I do remember seeing three aircraft each night turned into one which never left full.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup, I flew the Scenic Chieftins and Caravans. Only guy I remember from the cargo side was a manager named Israel. This was circa '97.

Lol.......that's weird. We were working at the same area in different jobs at the same time!

MarineNav · October 10th, 2004, 14:27

Hello John,

Is what the scabs listed did illegal?

Thanks,

JR

Bog · October 10th, 2004, 14:28

[ QUOTE ]
Only guy I remember from the cargo side was a manager named Israel.

[/ QUOTE ]

Must have been Pacheco. He was my favorite boss, always with the big picture in mind and didn't get frazzled by things. Our station manager, who was a supreme arse, always battered the guy. Pretty pathetic.

I was a p/t UPS sup from 9/94 until maybe 5/97, at which point I'd had enough of the ######### of the PHX airport op. Seems that you could get in as a sup, but if you ever wanted f/t with the company, you'd only be able to dream about it. That's why I quit and went f/t at my other job (supervisor for BAX).

Indeed ... so close, yet so far. Crazy world, eh?

Doug Taylor · October 10th, 2004, 14:30

[ QUOTE ]

Good question. I doubt they publish SS#s to match the names to. I just don't want it to degenerate into a TSA-like name mix-up.

[/ QUOTE ]

The copy that I happened to run across once upon a time had a smattering of SSN numbers.

EatSleepFly · October 10th, 2004, 14:41

[ QUOTE ]
Talk about Kool-Aid drinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever you say, Mike.

I_Money · October 10th, 2004, 14:43

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Good question. I doubt they publish SS#s to match the names to. I just don't want it to degenerate into a TSA-like name mix-up.

[/ QUOTE ]

The copy that I happened to run across once upon a time had a smattering of SSN numbers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think they have DOB.

jonnyb · October 10th, 2004, 14:59

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I should point out that I think people that directly go against all their union's have struggled for should be drug out into a field and shot.

Before you people start thinking I'M a scab.

And don't see yourself out of this thread. That's kinda boring. Come on. Tell me why this flight info type c#$p should show up here where personal opinion and discussion typically prevails unless gulfstream, MAPD, or any other miniscule success of Frank Lorenzo comes up.

Flame away...at least I have an opinion that I can back up.

[/ QUOTE ]
I stand by my previous statements..........You're still a tool Tallboy!

Get a life, you wanker.

Oh, and sorry Mike, I couldn't resist.

Doug Taylor · October 10th, 2004, 15:28

Oh come on man, keep it friendly!

MikeD · October 10th, 2004, 15:47

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Talk about Kool-Aid drinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever you say, Mike.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well what would you call it, then? Did you, in fact, read any of what I wrote regards the some scabs beng "good scabs" while others are "bad scabs"?

How does that work? I mean, you're the one at the airline and in the union, I'm the outsider. Educate me.

IMO, it smells of hypocrisy, just no one wants to come out and say it.

Doug Taylor · October 10th, 2004, 16:11

Well, imagine a big game of "stare down" where management sits on one side of the table and labor sits on the other side of the table.

Both sides have a mutual interest for the game to succeed, but management wants low costs and labor wants wages at least consistent with their efforts.

Both sides eyes are drying rapidly and the tension rises.

Then some 'scab' bounds up, delicately sprays management's eyes with some soothing viseine and does nothing more than extends the game.

Aiding and abetting, and all that.

October 10th, 2004, 02:28	#26
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: Speaking of Scabs... I personally don't think the scab list should be posted here. Incriminating accusations such as theft, cocaine use, etc. Unproven allegations like that on a "list" is the equilivent to outright slander. How do we know if it's true or not? How do we know that the people on said list really did what they did.....or that they didn't just piss the wrong person off and getting put on the "list" is their retribution. Also, gleefully labling someone as DEAD when in fact they are, is about as poor form as one can get, and takes the meaning of "sour grapes" to a new low. So much for professionalism........ Rausda, Montana, Kell, RPM, Wannabe, IRuppert, ESF, Iain. Think about this. What's to say someone doesn't get pissed off and put you on the list down the road? I'm sure there's no due-process for determining who goes on the list, and I'm sure going on is far easier than coming off. My original question wasn't any intent to name names, and frankly, I'm pretty pissed off that some have taken my original post to that kind of low. My only intent was to ask why, if ALPA is so against scabs, that they are in the ALPA hierarchy at CAL? Is ALPA willing to look the other way when it suits their needs? THAT'S all I wanted to know. And the only person that hit the nail on the head in this thread is Bog.

October 10th, 2004, 02:37	#27
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,230	Re: Speaking of Scabs... Mike, I agree with you that unproven allegations shouldn't be on the list. I really have no opinion on if posting the list was "good form" or not. It's Doug's living room, IMO. If he doesn't think it's cool, he'll let someone know and fix it. Otherwise, I just go with the flow. From what I've been able to garner from reading what little bit of "Flying the Line Vol II" I've made if from, ALPA is a business first and a union second. Their main objective is to stay in business. If that means looking the other way to bring Continental back into the fold, then they'll do it. If it means running both sides of the scope clause on contracts, they'll do that, too. No one get me wrong, I'm not against ALPA existing. If it weren't for ALPA pilots would all either be flying for McDonald's wages or flying 40-60 hour WEEKS with little rest in-between.

October 10th, 2004, 02:41	#28
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: Speaking of Scabs... [ QUOTE ] Mike, I agree with you that unproven allegations shouldn't be on the list. I really have no opinion on if posting the list was "good form" or not. It's Doug's living room, IMO. If he doesn't think it's cool, he'll let someone know and fix it. Otherwise, I just go with the flow. [/ QUOTE ] That's all good. I was just posting some personal "food for thought" for anyone's consumption.......just some angles that I worry might not be getting looked at. [ QUOTE ] From what I've been able to garner from reading what little bit of "Flying the Line Vol II" I've made if from, ALPA is a business first and a union second. Their main objective is to stay in business. If that means looking the other way to bring Continental back into the fold, then they'll do it. If it means running both sides of the scope clause on contracts, they'll do that, too. No one get me wrong, I'm not against ALPA existing. If it weren't for ALPA pilots would all either be flying for McDonald's wages or flying 40-60 hour WEEKS with little rest in-between. [/ QUOTE ] I agree overall, I just sort of wonder whether all the anti-scab talk by the union, which then turns around and "accepts" the alleged scabbers when it suits their needs....if that borders on hypocrisy. And if so, why this hypocrisy is accepted, while political hypocrisy (flip flopping Kerry......double-story Bush) isn't?

October 10th, 2004, 04:30	#29
I_Money Moderator Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Socal Posts: 5,691	Re: Speaking of Scabs... I have no problem with removing the list, however JC is not producing the list, or utilizing it as policy here on JetCareers - out only involvement is providing a link so that up and comers can see what exactly is being discussed. We are also not encouraging people to use it, or promoting it in anyway. I personally think the whole scab thing is over the top the way it is managed in the airline industry, but I am not much of a union supporter so it is not surprising.

October 10th, 2004, 05:10	#30
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,926 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Speaking of Scabs... And off-site link is dandy, but considering it's been a energetic, but flame-free discussion, it's actually a very interesting thread. Love it or hate it, that's the reality of what civilian commercial pilots have to deal with. Which is why I always suggest people read "Flying the Line" as a primer on management-pilot relations and how perfectly the 'pilot psyche' ("gotta get mine before you get yours"/"if I don't take it, someone else will, so I might as well") is turned around and used on pilots. Sure the books written with a 'pilot slant', but considering all of the news (local, (inter)national and financial) has a markedly 'management' slant, it's a good start. It's a valid discussion and as long as people keep it friendly and on-topic, it'll serve as a good learning tool.

October 10th, 2004, 08:59	#31
Mr_Creepy Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: In the O-zone Posts: 5,810	Re: Speaking of Scabs... If anyone needs the scab list PM me and I will email it to you. I would like to see it posted. That's one of the main deterrents to scabbing, knowing you will be "on a list."

October 10th, 2004, 09:22	#32
SteveC Modulator Join Date: May 2003 Location: GRR Posts: 8,788	Re: Speaking of Scabs... Thread related question: What happens when there is more than one pilot with the same name, one scab and one not? Is there differentiation made somewhere publicly? Or, what if someone happens to have the same name as a scab, and is trying to get into the profession? Curious minds....

October 10th, 2004, 11:14	#33
flyover Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,389	Re: Speaking of Scabs... [ QUOTE ] I personally don't think the scab list should be posted here. Incriminating accusations such as theft, cocaine use, etc. Unproven allegations like that on a "list" is the equilivent to outright slander. [/ QUOTE ] I agree. [ QUOTE ] My only intent was to ask why, if ALPA is so against scabs, that they are in the ALPA hierarchy at CAL? Is ALPA willing to look the other way when it suits their needs? THAT'S all I wanted to know. And the only person that hit the nail on the head in this thread is Bog. [/ QUOTE ] I think ALPA leadership recognized that this strike had some unique aspects to it. For one it was badly handled by ALPA. I always felt the people at CAL were put in a position they shouldn't have been put in, and I believe if ALPA had it to do over they would not have struck. Leaving the property played right into Lorenzo's hands. Years later it was time to look ahead and bringing CAL back into the ALPA fold was an important part of that. There is nothing easier than criticising someone who has faced something you haven't had to. Reducing them to a "scab" dehumanizes them and makes it easy to feel superior. It's an age-old, much too often used, mechanism. ALPA leadership was a little bigger than that and that's what leadership is for.

October 10th, 2004, 11:18	#34
EatSleepFly Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: ?? Posts: 4,600	Re: Speaking of Scabs... [ QUOTE ] Rausda, Montana, Kell, RPM, Wannabe, IRuppert, ESF, Iain. Think about this. What's to say someone doesn't get pissed off and put you on the list down the road? [/ QUOTE ] Because its a list of people who have actually walked across a picket line. Its not a black list that you end up on if you piss off the wrong person for whatever other reason. There's only one way to get on it, and only one way to stay off it.

October 10th, 2004, 13:17	#35
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,577	Re: Speaking of Scabs... "I just sort of wonder whether all the anti-scab talk by the union, which then turns around and "accepts" the alleged scabbers when it suits their needs" Yeah...that's a bad deal and I'm sure a lot of CAL guys were against it. I wish we had a CAL pilot of two on the board to talk about it. We have a VERY unique situation at UPS. There are about 2500 line guys and 200 plus (I'm guessing here) "management pilots". Some come from the IPA ranks for the nearly instant upgrade to Capt the company wants managers to be. Some are hired straight into management. They make a little more than a line Capt plus stock bonuses. They have no union, and are not a part of our pilot group. They have no work rules other than FAR's. They have no "protection" from the company. In my view, they work a lot harder than I do. During the UPS teamsters strike a while back they were able to keep a fraction of the flight operation running for two weeks while the IPA guys walked the picket line with the teamsters. I know MikeD lost a job over that but we all do what we have to do. (do you ever think about where you'd be if you that hadn't happened?...prolly not where you are now) I'd walk again if we call a legal strike (it takes a lot of time and effort to get there) and I'd walk away from the career, if need be. I see it as kind of like nuclear war. You have to be prepared to do it for it to be a credible deterrent. At the same time, you realize that if you do it.....it's all over. I'm prepared for that.

October 10th, 2004, 14:00	#36
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,230	Re: Speaking of Scabs... [ QUOTE ] Or, what if someone happens to have the same name as a scab, and is trying to get into the profession? [/ QUOTE ] Good question. I doubt they publish SS#s to match the names to. I just don't want it to degenerate into a TSA-like name mix-up. I also agree with Flyover's assessment of ALPA's handling of the CAL strike. Reading "Flying the Line" has convinced me to alter my minor from Aviation Safety to Airline Management. It's nice to be able to "get in management's head." Makes it easier to see their point of view come contract negotiations as well as recognize traps they like to set for the pilot group. One of the major problems ALPA had was support from the rank and file CAL pilots. Before their own strike, line pilots had crossed picket lines for CAL FA and mechanics. Lorenzo even got extra sleazy and called striking pilots at home to shmooze them into crossing picket lines. When the MEC wavered (and their chairmen collapsed from exhaustion), 110 pilots lost faith in their negotiating and crossed the line.

October 10th, 2004, 14:03	#37
Mr_Creepy Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: In the O-zone Posts: 5,810	Re: Speaking of Scabs... [ QUOTE ] I think ALPA leadership recognized that this strike had some unique aspects to it. For one it was badly handled by ALPA. I always felt the people at CAL were put in a position they shouldn't have been put in, and I believe if ALPA had it to do over they would not have struck. Leaving the property played right into Lorenzo's hands. Years later it was time to look ahead and bringing CAL back into the ALPA fold was an important part of that. [/ QUOTE ] I have to jump on this. Yeah there was some bad handling. Yeah Lorenzo is a Capital A-hole that ALPA tries to make look like the anti-christ. Yeah the "people" are back in ALPA but they are still scabs. They crossed a picket line to take jobs from union workers. Post the list. And keep posting it!

October 10th, 2004, 14:11	#38
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: Speaking of Scabs... [quoteWe have a VERY unique situation at UPS. There are about 2500 line guys and 200 plus (I'm guessing here) "management pilots". Some come from the IPA ranks for the nearly instant upgrade to Capt the company wants managers to be. Some are hired straight into management. They make a little more than a line Capt plus stock bonuses. They have no union, and are not a part of our pilot group. They have no work rules other than FAR's. They have no "protection" from the company. In my view, they work a lot harder than I do. During the UPS teamsters strike a while back they were able to keep a fraction of the flight operation running for two weeks while the IPA guys walked the picket line with the teamsters. I know MikeD lost a job over that but we all do what we have to do. (do you ever think about where you'd be if you that hadn't happened?...prolly not where you are now) I'd walk again if we call a legal strike (it takes a lot of time and effort to get there) and I'd walk away from the career, if need be. I [/ QUOTE ] Lol. I remember back then at PHX....the UPS jet would show up, the pilots would deplane. I'd then see them walk the picket line for a bit before they got back on the plane that night to go fly. All the while, I'm at work since I'm supposed to be there, with my plane at the cargo ramp ready to take cargo, if any. Only to find out that there was none, and I could taxi back to my own ramp. That was the summary of about the last 2.5 weeks with my company. lol Least I was getting paid to do nothing but lounge in the back of my cargo plane all day and read a book. I do wonder where I'd be now had that fork in the road never happened....

October 10th, 2004, 14:15	#39
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: Speaking of Scabs... [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Rausda, Montana, Kell, RPM, Wannabe, IRuppert, ESF, Iain. Think about this. What's to say someone doesn't get pissed off and put you on the list down the road? [/ QUOTE ] Because its a list of people who have actually walked across a picket line. Its not a black list that you end up on if you piss off the wrong person for whatever other reason. There's only one way to get on it, and only one way to stay off it. [/ QUOTE ] You sure about that? Willing to bet your career on it? Have that much blind faith in the union to bet the come line on it? The same union that let the scabs back in and put them in good faith? After that move by them, I wouldn't trust them much more than I could throw them...you know, know that they're there, but always keep one eye on them..... Talk about Kool-Aid drinking. Who really manages this list, and what's the "due process" for getting on and off of it? I personally don't care for scabs that much; but then again, I don't know any of those guys from Adam that are on that list. But I do believe in the concept of due process. How do I know that list is accurate were I ever to choose to use it?

October 10th, 2004, 14:19	#40
Bog Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,170	Re: Speaking of Scabs... [ QUOTE ] Lol. I remember back then at PHX....the UPS jet would show up, the pilots would deplane. I'd then see them walk the picket line for a bit before they got back on the plane that night to go fly. All the while, I'm at work since I'm supposed to be there, with my plane at the cargo ramp ready to take cargo, if any. Only to find out that there was none, and I could taxi back to my own ramp. That was the summary of about the last 2.5 weeks with my company. lol Least I was getting paid to do nothing but lounge in the back of my cargo plane all day and read a book. I do wonder where I'd be now had that fork in the road never happened.... [/ QUOTE ] Dang, were you with Scenic or Ameriflight at that point? I think I'd already left UPS at that point which is probably why I don't remember seeing you in feederville. I do remember seeing three aircraft each night turned into one which never left full.

October 10th, 2004, 14:23	#41
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: Speaking of Scabs... [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Lol. I remember back then at PHX....the UPS jet would show up, the pilots would deplane. I'd then see them walk the picket line for a bit before they got back on the plane that night to go fly. All the while, I'm at work since I'm supposed to be there, with my plane at the cargo ramp ready to take cargo, if any. Only to find out that there was none, and I could taxi back to my own ramp. That was the summary of about the last 2.5 weeks with my company. lol Least I was getting paid to do nothing but lounge in the back of my cargo plane all day and read a book. I do wonder where I'd be now had that fork in the road never happened.... [/ QUOTE ] Dang, were you with Scenic or Ameriflight at that point? I think I'd already left UPS at that point which is probably why I don't remember seeing you in feederville. I do remember seeing three aircraft each night turned into one which never left full. [/ QUOTE ] Yup, I flew the Scenic Chieftins and Caravans. Only guy I remember from the cargo side was a manager named Israel. This was circa '97. Lol.......that's weird. We were working at the same area in different jobs at the same time!

October 10th, 2004, 14:27	#42
MarineNav Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Santa Clara, CA Posts: 301	Re: Speaking of Scabs... Hello John, Is what the scabs listed did illegal? Thanks, JR

October 10th, 2004, 14:28	#43
Bog Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,170	Re: Speaking of Scabs... [ QUOTE ] Only guy I remember from the cargo side was a manager named Israel. [/ QUOTE ] Must have been Pacheco. He was my favorite boss, always with the big picture in mind and didn't get frazzled by things. Our station manager, who was a supreme arse, always battered the guy. Pretty pathetic. I was a p/t UPS sup from 9/94 until maybe 5/97, at which point I'd had enough of the ######### of the PHX airport op. Seems that you could get in as a sup, but if you ever wanted f/t with the company, you'd only be able to dream about it. That's why I quit and went f/t at my other job (supervisor for BAX). Indeed ... so close, yet so far. Crazy world, eh?

October 10th, 2004, 14:30	#44
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,926 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Speaking of Scabs... [ QUOTE ] Good question. I doubt they publish SS#s to match the names to. I just don't want it to degenerate into a TSA-like name mix-up. [/ QUOTE ] The copy that I happened to run across once upon a time had a smattering of SSN numbers.

October 10th, 2004, 14:41	#45
EatSleepFly Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: ?? Posts: 4,600	Re: Speaking of Scabs... [ QUOTE ] Talk about Kool-Aid drinking. [/ QUOTE ] Whatever you say, Mike.

October 10th, 2004, 14:43	#46
I_Money Moderator Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Socal Posts: 5,691	Re: Speaking of Scabs... [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Good question. I doubt they publish SS#s to match the names to. I just don't want it to degenerate into a TSA-like name mix-up. [/ QUOTE ] The copy that I happened to run across once upon a time had a smattering of SSN numbers. [/ QUOTE ] I think they have DOB.

October 10th, 2004, 14:59	#47
jonnyb Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: So. California Posts: 1,304	Re: Speaking of Scabs... [ QUOTE ] I guess I should point out that I think people that directly go against all their union's have struggled for should be drug out into a field and shot. Before you people start thinking I'M a scab. And don't see yourself out of this thread. That's kinda boring. Come on. Tell me why this flight info type c#$p should show up here where personal opinion and discussion typically prevails unless gulfstream, MAPD, or any other miniscule success of Frank Lorenzo comes up. Flame away...at least I have an opinion that I can back up. [/ QUOTE ] I stand by my previous statements..........You're still a tool Tallboy! Get a life, you wanker. Oh, and sorry Mike, I couldn't resist.

October 10th, 2004, 15:28	#48
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,926 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Speaking of Scabs... Oh come on man, keep it friendly!

October 10th, 2004, 15:47	#49
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: Speaking of Scabs... [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Talk about Kool-Aid drinking. [/ QUOTE ] Whatever you say, Mike. [/ QUOTE ] Well what would you call it, then? Did you, in fact, read any of what I wrote regards the some scabs beng "good scabs" while others are "bad scabs"? How does that work? I mean, you're the one at the airline and in the union, I'm the outsider. Educate me. IMO, it smells of hypocrisy, just no one wants to come out and say it.

October 10th, 2004, 16:11	#50
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,926 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Speaking of Scabs... Well, imagine a big game of "stare down" where management sits on one side of the table and labor sits on the other side of the table. Both sides have a mutual interest for the game to succeed, but management wants low costs and labor wants wages at least consistent with their efforts. Both sides eyes are drying rapidly and the tension rises. Then some 'scab' bounds up, delicately sprays management's eyes with some soothing viseine and does nothing more than extends the game. Aiding and abetting, and all that.

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