For those lookin for snakeoil

[montanapilot]

Well i got to go to an airshow yesterday in the monsterous town of Sidney, MT, population 5,000, (about 15 miles from the North Dakota border)

The airshow was great they had 2 former Snowbirds, a P-51, and T-28, plus various airshow aircraft all doing performances. Had an aircraft dealer out of Fargo bring a 182 with the glass panel, UND was there, and there were about 35 planes for the fly-in. Overall a great sucess for a first time airshow/fly-in.

Anyway......Big Sky airlines was also there doing some promoting and opened up the Metroliner for people to look around inside. So i went up to one of the pilots and started chattin about his job and the whole process about becoming an airline pilot. Well turns out this fellow is the chief pilot for the airline and the man who is responsible for hiring. The guy has been there since 1993 and absolutely loves the airline. He said it doesnt matter where you go as long as you get your CFI. He gave me quite an explanation of the evils of PFT, bridge programs, and pilots that have done nothing but banner towing or traffic watch to build their hours. He said getting your CFI and being employed shows me that someone has already trusted you enough to employ you and therefore i am not taking as big of risk on you by being your first employer. He said it is just crazy how people plop down money on all these fancy get-ahead schemes when being as CFI is a proven and surefire way to gain your hours and not get ripped off.

So I thought i would post this little bit of info cause there will surely be more PFT threads and people trying to justify it and want "specific examples" [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cwm27.gif[/img] of how it hurts the industry.

[Doug Taylor]

[ QUOTE ]
He said getting your CFI and being employed shows me that someone has already trusted you enough to employ you and therefore i am not taking as big of risk on you by being your first employer.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's been the bedrock of many 'sermons' here at Jetcareers.

Amen. Amen. Amen.

And thanks for sharing!

[Ophir]

Now having been a follower of that advice,and only 8 months into instructing, I cannot agree more. The amount I have learned since i have started teaching what "know" is amazing. If there is a job you all should race to get, that is a CFI position. However, don't be disillusioned by the people out there dissing CFI jobs. My whole advice to those looking to come up the ranks is ----> enjoy the process, don't chase the rating <----- This professional is all about knowing your stuff, if you race through it, you will miss the fun of learning and the nuances.

[Doug Taylor]

I really didn't want to be a CFI at first. I thought it was *gasp* beneath me because I went to a top name school and had a little bit of turbine time.

Yes, that's a tough statement to make, but it was true.

But some of the most rewarding flying I've even done was flight instructing and a lot of those traits I honed and communication skills I had to learn on the fly as I instructed are things that I use and build upon to this day.

Looking back, without having been a flight instructor, I think I would have been a pretty rotten airline pilot because I wouldn't have learned humility, missed crucial networking opportunities and how to effectively communicate when the person you're speaking to just 'doesn't get it'.

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
. He said it doesnt matter where you go as long as you get your CFI. He gave me quite an explanation of the evils of PFT, bridge programs, and pilots that have done nothing but banner towing or traffic watch to build their hours. He said getting your CFI and being employed shows me that someone has already trusted you enough to employ you and therefore i am not taking as big of risk on you by being your first employer. .

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahem. Have to raise the massive BS flag here. Traffic Watch and banner towing aren't employment? Give me a break. I went the traffic watch route as my first job (read: employment, ie- I was trusted to be paid to fly someone else's airplane), and I turned out fine. CFIing is merely one route to go in the mission of building hours, not the only route. It ranks level, IMO, with traffic watch, banner towing, skydiver hauling, etc. They all have their plusses and minuses.

I believe this guy to be full of bullmerde in this obviously ill-informed opinion of his. But maybe ill-informed opinions are the reason he's been flying a Metro since '93.

Jackass.

[pilot602]

There's a reason why a vast majority of the civil trained pilot group has spent time "on the couch" (i.e. CFI'ing) ... there are no shortcuts.

[Mr_Creepy]

[ QUOTE ]
Looking back, without having been a flight instructor, I think I would have been a pretty rotten airline pilot because I wouldn't have learned humility, missed crucial networking opportunities and how to effectively communicate when the person you're speaking to just 'doesn't get it'.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hear hear!

Huzzah huzzah huzzah

Well said.

[EDUC8-or]

[ QUOTE ]
Ahem. Have to raise the massive BS flag here. Traffic Watch and banner towing aren't employment? Give me a break. I went the traffic watch route as my first job (read: employment, ie- I was trusted to be paid to fly someone else's airplane), and I turned out fine. CFIing is merely one route to go in the mission of building hours, not the only route. It ranks level, IMO, with traffic watch, banner towing, skydiver hauling, etc. They all have their plusses and minuses.

I believe this guy to be full of bullmerde in this obviously ill-informed opinion of his. But maybe ill-informed opinions are the reason he's been flying a Metro since '93.

Jackass.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a friend that flew traffic watch up in Charlotte for a year. He recently starting instructing again because he's looking to build his multi time. He was surprised how rusty his knowledge had become in his year off from teaching. This is his account and isn't directed towards you personally MikeD, but he said he just didn't study or review because he didn't have to. A good teacher is constantly reviewing info, re-learning some old info, and learning new material. Plus you are communicating with many different people and personality types in an environment that can be quite stressful at times. Instructing also presents the opportunity to fly different aircraft, so it's important to know the numbers and handling characteristics of each.

My friend built a ton of time in one year, and his stick skills greatly impoved. He just felt that the job didn't require him to stay sharp on his knowledge as others might have.

[pilot602]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ahem. Have to raise the massive BS flag here. Traffic Watch and banner towing aren't employment? Give me a break. I went the traffic watch route as my first job (read: employment, ie- I was trusted to be paid to fly someone else's airplane), and I turned out fine. CFIing is merely one route to go in the mission of building hours, not the only route. It ranks level, IMO, with traffic watch, banner towing, skydiver hauling, etc. They all have their plusses and minuses.

I believe this guy to be full of bullmerde in this obviously ill-informed opinion of his. But maybe ill-informed opinions are the reason he's been flying a Metro since '93.

Jackass.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a friend that flew traffic watch up in Charlotte for a year. He recently starting instructing again because he's looking to build his multi time. He was surprised how rusty his knowledge had become in his year off from teaching. This is his account and isn't directed towards you personally MikeD, but he said he just didn't study or review because he didn't have to. A good teacher is constantly reviewing info, re-learning some old info, and learning new material. Plus you are communicating with many different people and personality types in an environment that can be quite stressful at times. Instructing also presents the opportunity to fly different aircraft, so it's important to know the numbers and handling characteristics of each.

My friend built a ton of time in one year, and his stick skills greatly impoved. He just felt that the job didn't require him to stay sharp on his knowledge as others might have.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno a first job is a first job. No one expects a CFI or Trafficwatch pilot or banner tower to know how to fly a 777 but they do expect that they performed their respective jobs well and that is what counts.

[Ophir]

602, I agree with that. But the major difference is that a CFI is out there polishing his knowledge daily in areas of aviation he/she wouldn't necessarily concentrate on. I always tell my studs that we as humans have the propensity to practice our strengths. As a CFI we are charged with highlighting someone's weaknesses and working on this. And by virtue of this charge we too, as CFI's, have to work on our own knowledge and skill.

I disagree with you Mike. I don't think banner towing or traffic watch would help you as much as instructing. Sure, you may rack up the hours quicker and therefore get to the better job faster, but again, the process should be embraced and enjoyed. This mentality of racking up hours just to get to the next step is fraught with flaws. You are a master of the TERPS, could you have really become a good IFR pilot while flying in VFR conditions? I strongly disagree with you on this one.

However, I also wonder what a guy is doing in aviation if he has been a Metro pilot for ten years. But then again, I didn't meet him. But it does seem as though you would want to move on from that job.

[flyover]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe this guy to be full of bullmerde in this obviously ill-informed opinion of his. But maybe ill-informed opinions are the reason he's been flying a Metro since '93.

Jackass.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ouch! Hit! you sunk my battleship!

Thanks, from another non-CFI.

[ QUOTE ]


I believe this guy to be full of bullmerde in this obviously ill-informed opinion of his. But maybe ill-informed opinions are the reason he's been flying a Metro since '93.

Jackass.

[/ QUOTE ]

LMAO!

[MikeD]

EDU-8tor and Ophir,

I understand the point you guys are making, and I agree in spirit, but disagree with the angle you're both coming from. When I flew traffic watch, sure the job didn't require much in the way of study, but the difference is that I took it upon myself to keep up with things I wasn't getting enough of.....ie- instrument approaches. My big contention is that the problem with rust building in these areas of one's knowlege base isn't the fault of the particular job (banner tow, traffic watch, skydivers, etc). The onus in on the particular pilotto keep his knowlege skills up. A CFI only happens to do this because he teaches....that's what his job happens to be. But that doesn't make the CFI job, in and of itself, any better than or worse than the other entry-level jobs. I just thought it was a little disingenious to rank the CFI job over the other jobs, simply because of pilot study habits, or lack thereof.

[EDUC8-or]

I don't think either job is better, but if you read my post again carefully you can see I was pointing out that the CFI job requires you to stay sharp or lose your students whereas the banner tow job does not. Obviously you took it upon yourself to improve your knowledge and skills outside of traffic watch. You wouldn't be where you are now without that ambition.

I must also say there are crappy CFI's out there. I pretty much taught myself through one ticket on my own because I didn't know any better. My neighbor started at Chick-Fil-A working the drive thru window 6 years ago. He just bought a store last month. Any job is what you make of it.

[kellwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
But that doesn't make the CFI job, in and of itself, any better than or worse than the other entry-level jobs. I just thought it was a little disingenious to rank the CFI job over the other jobs, simply because of pilot study habits, or lack thereof.

[/ QUOTE ]

And that, my friends, is the key. I think it's wrong of this guy to say that traffic watch, pipeline patrol, or banner towing is not as good as CFIing. Yeah, you have to stay sharp, know the regs, how to teach, and generally keep the guy on the left from killing you as a CFI. But what's to say the other guy in the other job can't study the regs to stay sharp or go out and fly some extra time on his own to keep some skills sharp? If the airline/company/whatever looks at him and says "Oh, he was never a CFI, so he must be rusty" that's really unfair to the guy who busted his ass.

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But that doesn't make the CFI job, in and of itself, any better than or worse than the other entry-level jobs. I just thought it was a little disingenious to rank the CFI job over the other jobs, simply because of pilot study habits, or lack thereof.

[/ QUOTE ]

And that, my friends, is the key. I think it's wrong of this guy to say that traffic watch, pipeline patrol, or banner towing is not as good as CFIing. Yeah, you have to stay sharp, know the regs, how to teach, and generally keep the guy on the left from killing you as a CFI. But what's to say the other guy in the other job can't study the regs to stay sharp or go out and fly some extra time on his own to keep some skills sharp? If the airline/company/whatever looks at him and says "Oh, he was never a CFI, so he must be rusty" that's really unfair to the guy who busted his ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fully agree. And EDU-8-tor, I fully agree with you that any job, or personal performance within, is what the person involved makes of it.

That being said, I still think that said Big Sky chief pilot is full of bull, and hasn't the first clue what the hell he's talking about to put down traffic pilots and banner tow guys. And I'd tell him so personally.

[SteveC]

"Cleared hot"

[Ophir]

I think in many ways we are not talking about the same things. The Big Sky pilot believes CFI's make the best pilot becuase they are teaching all the stuff that make you regulatory compliant and safe. The banner tow pilot can certainly learn just as much as the CFI can, if he so choses. And the world is full of crappy CFI's too.

The problems here seem to be:

The majority of studs don't know enough about aviation to study what is right, what is wrong and what will be applicable to their piloting.

The banner tow guy absolutely must be a self-starter and recognize the need to study beyond his everyday flying in order to keep up with the CFI who, by the very nature of the job, must be up those things. So the banner tow guy has to be exceptional. Personally, I have met very few self-starters and very few studs who can grasp the magnitude of what it is they are needing to understand in order to be a good pilot.

The world is what you make of it. You can chose to be a ####e CFI or not. You can chose to be a ####e banner tow guy, or not. The very nature of the business leads the CFI to be more accomplished with regs and various types of flying that will prepare him more for an airline job. Whether it is right or wrong, the CFI places himself in a position to learn more where as the banner tow guy has to find out what he doesn't know before he can move on.

Maybe I am sour on how many studs walk in here and think this will be easy. Maybe I am sour becuase too many studs walk out of here thinking they know it all.

I still disagree though

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I am sour on how many studs walk in here and think this will be easy. Maybe I am sour becuase too many studs walk out of here thinking they know it all.



[/ QUOTE ]

I can agree with you on that one.

[Doug Taylor]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I am sour on how many studs walk in here and think this will be easy. Maybe I am sour becuase too many studs walk out of here thinking they know it all.


[/ QUOTE ]

Here, here!

[kellwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I am sour on how many studs walk in here and think this will be easy. Maybe I am sour becuase too many studs walk out of here thinking they know it all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen plenty of this, and I'm still just a student. Everytime I have to say to myself "please don't let me become THAT guy." My point was I don't feel that it's fair to the banner tow/traffic/pipeline/insert crap job here pilots that they aren't granted an interview simply because they chose a different route. I know plenty of airline pilots that are pretty complacent and lazy, and they'll even tell you.

[Doug Taylor]

I am an airline pilot and I am complacent and lazy.

But, when need be, I'm "Johnny on the Spot".

Considering I work for an airline who, once upon a time, wouldn't even look at you seriously unless you had perfect 20/20 vision and military experience, the preferences of Big Sky's rep doesn't suprise me all that much.

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I am sour on how many studs walk in here and think this will be easy. Maybe I am sour becuase too many studs walk out of here thinking they know it all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen plenty of this, and I'm still just a student. Everytime I have to say to myself "please don't let me become THAT guy." My point was I don't feel that it's fair to the banner tow/traffic/pipeline/insert crap job here pilots that they aren't granted an interview simply because they chose a different route. I know plenty of airline pilots that are pretty complacent and lazy, and they'll even tell you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with that too. Having an entry-level job other than CFI being a bad thing, the assertion the Metroliner chief pilot moron was making, and having it somehow held against you via perception or reality, is plain wrong.

[Ophir]

Now that I agree with; anyone who assumes a person lacks skill because of their previous aviation job is discriminating. However, the be devil's advocate here, don't all jobs in the aviation world distriminate, i.e. 2000TT, 500 multi, 100 night. Who says I could be a better pilot and employee than that? Sadly the answer to my feable attempt at rhetoric is ----> The Insurance company. Fuqr's!

[MarineNav]

So 3 years as a military aircrew member doesn't count? What about all of the crew chiefs and F/E's and Naval F/O's? Seems to me he's too narrow minded.

JR