KPHX

MikeD · September 9th, 2004, 16:29

Now, I'm from PHX and I remember when that airport had a Terminal 1 that Hughes Air West was flying out of, no Terminal 4, only two runways, and the AZ Air National Guard was flying KC-97s. I flew out of there for my initial PPL in 1985 and was based there for my second cargo job 10 years later.

In that time, the airfield has expanded a lot, namely getting a thrid runway built. With nothing to do as duty officer today, I was idly paging through the FLIP IAP book and looked at the airfield diagram of KPHX to see where some of the new stuff is located, and I noticed that the magnetic heading for all three runways is 077.7/257.7 degrees.

My question is, why didn't the south runway retain it's "8-26" designation [when there was only 8L/R - 26L/R] and when the third runway was added, have it also become 8-26; so you have a 8 L/C/R - 26 L/C/R; as opposed to having it the way it is now with the north runway still being 8-26, and the south runway being 7L/R - 25L/R?

flyover · September 9th, 2004, 17:24

[ QUOTE ]
Now, I'm from PHX and I remember when that airport had a Terminal 1 that Hughes Air West was flying out of, no Terminal 4, only two runways, and the AZ Air National Guard was flying KC-97s. I flew out of there for my initial PPL in 1985 and was based there for my second cargo job 10 years later.

In that time, the airfield has expanded a lot, namely getting a thrid runway built. With nothing to do as duty officer today, I was idly paging through the FLIP IAP book and looked at the airfield diagram of KPHX to see where some of the new stuff is located, and I noticed that the magnetic heading for all three runways is 077.7/257.7 degrees.

My question is, why didn't the south runway retain it's "8-26" designation and when the third runway was added, have it also become 8-26; so you have a 8 L/C/R - 26 L/C/R; as opposed to having it the way it is now with the north runway still being 8-26, and the south runway being 7L/R - 26L/R?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are muccccch older than I guessed.

But 7-26 is a messed up way to label runways. Maybe the budget ran out before they could change the 6s to 5s. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

MikeD · September 9th, 2004, 17:28

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now, I'm from PHX and I remember when that airport had a Terminal 1 that Hughes Air West was flying out of, no Terminal 4, only two runways, and the AZ Air National Guard was flying KC-97s. I flew out of there for my initial PPL in 1985 and was based there for my second cargo job 10 years later.

In that time, the airfield has expanded a lot, namely getting a thrid runway built. With nothing to do as duty officer today, I was idly paging through the FLIP IAP book and looked at the airfield diagram of KPHX to see where some of the new stuff is located, and I noticed that the magnetic heading for all three runways is 077.7/257.7 degrees.

My question is, why didn't the south runway retain it's "8-26" designation and when the third runway was added, have it also become 8-26; so you have a 8 L/C/R - 26 L/C/R; as opposed to having it the way it is now with the north runway still being 8-26, and the south runway being 7L/R - 26L/R?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are muccccch older than I guessed.

But 7-26 is a messed up way to label runways. Maybe the budget ran out before they could change the 6s to 5s. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. Typo on my part. Now corrected! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Thx for the catch! Last sentence is "....7L/R - 25L/R"
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

aloft · September 9th, 2004, 17:58

Might be just my perception, but I've noticed lately that the FAA seems to be distancing itself from the practice of having L/C/R runways and the potential for confusion they offer. Take a look at KDEN's airport diagram.

flyhigh · September 9th, 2004, 18:06

[ QUOTE ]
Take a look at KDEN's airport diagram.

[/ QUOTE ] KDEN diagram

MikeD · September 9th, 2004, 18:19

[ QUOTE ]
Might be just my perception, but I've noticed lately that the FAA seems to be distancing itself from the practice of having L/C/R runways and the potential for confusion they offer. Take a look at KDEN's airport diagram.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have noticed that too. And I think that may be what it is. But IMO there's really no more confusion than there being L/R runways. I mean, if a pilot can't manage a L/C/R runway combo, they shouldn't be holding a license. So I'm not sure why the FAA would do this, but I do agree that it is the way they seem to be going.

Only airports off the top of my head I can think of with L/C/R runways is:

KIWA
KDFW
KEND
KPIT
KDLF
KPCA (4 parallel runways)

Minnesota_Flyer · September 9th, 2004, 18:27

[ QUOTE ]
Have noticed that too. And I think that may be what it is. But IMO there's really no more confusion than there being L/R runways. I mean, if a pilot can't manage a L/C/R runway combo, they shouldn't be holding a license. So I'm not sure why the FAA would do this, but I do agree that it is the way they seem to be going.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems to me its more clear to have the runways marked L/C/R than to give them slightly different numbers. "So, is Rwy 26 to the left or right of Rwy 27??"

MF

tonyw · September 9th, 2004, 19:18

We'll find out soon enough, if the ORD stuff gets done. There will be six, count 'em, six parallel runways. What do you do then?

Doug Taylor · September 9th, 2004, 19:20

DFW has 18R, 18L, 17L, 17C, 17R...

Wait, durr, that's only 5.. but you can still get fairly creative!

tonyw · September 9th, 2004, 19:23

LOL.

I think the folks in Chicago decided to show the folks down in Texas that it is not true that everything is bigger in Texas. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

flyover · September 9th, 2004, 20:10

[ QUOTE ]
Seems to me its more clear to have the runways marked L/C/R than to give them slightly different numbers. "So, is Rwy 26 to the left or right of Rwy 27??"

MF

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd have to disagree. Especially where you have parallel approaches I'd like to see both approach runways have different numbers, ala ATL. It just seems to me that there is less chance of confusing "eight left" and "nine right" than "eight left" and "eight right" strictly from a radio communications standpoint.

Doug Taylor · September 9th, 2004, 20:25

I like the 26 L/R, 27 L/R thing too.

Easy to remember and a little harder to screw up.

It's the 'bottoms are usually bigger in the south' rule of thumb.

27 is 'bigger' than 26 and on the 'bottom' (south part of the airport).

Inboard runways are departure and the Outboard runways are arrival!

kellwolf · September 10th, 2004, 00:36

[ QUOTE ]
Only airports off the top of my head I can think of with L/C/R runways is:

KIWA
KDFW
KEND
KPIT
KDLF
KPCA (4 parallel runways)

[/ QUOTE ]

You can add MEM to that list. 18L/C/R and a 9/27 crossing runway. They tend to use all four at once, too. Especially at night when FedEx pretty much owns the place.

mtsu_av8er · September 10th, 2004, 00:53

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Only airports off the top of my head I can think of with L/C/R runways is:

KIWA
KDFW
KEND
KPIT
KDLF
KPCA (4 parallel runways)

[/ QUOTE ]

You can add MEM to that list. 18L/C/R and a 9/27 crossing runway. They tend to use all four at once, too. Especially at night when FedEx pretty much owns the place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Add BNA. 2L/C/R, with 13/31 crossing.

Maximillian_Jenius · September 10th, 2004, 01:19

PHX has definately grown in the past couple of years. There currently doing some kind of construction.

I had heard that they were putting in a new control tower. I drive past Sky Harbor everyday for work on SR143 and I have seen no real evidence of new contruction.

KPHX looks kinda sandwiched in and looks like it's growth is severely limited as a direct result. I heard that they might add another north parallel runways in the distant future. Not sure how though.

Lastly DFW is just a huge freaking monster. I think that it is the biggest airport in the country land wise. I have an atlas of and they have airports in a grey color and DFW is the largest that I have seen when flipping thru major cities.

I think that in DFW's future plans there going to add a third west runway. Making it 18L/18C/18R much like the east side of the field.

Matthew

MissedApproach · September 10th, 2004, 02:25

I had an ATC class tought by a PHX tower controller last semester and a student asked the same question. The reason, like most things in the world, had to do with money. Because the runway headings eventually "will" intersect in space, control operations become more complex and the FAA moves PHX up a notch on its funding scale. Obviously the runways are parallel and the FAA knows this. Seems like an awful lot of work to get around their own system but eh, thats government.

Doug Taylor · September 10th, 2004, 02:29

[ QUOTE ]

Lastly DFW is just a huge freaking monster. I think that it is the biggest airport in the country land wise. I have an atlas of and they have airports in a grey color and DFW is the largest that I have seen when flipping thru major cities.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spans three counties!

Maximillian_Jenius · September 10th, 2004, 02:43

[/ QUOTE ]

Spans three counties!

[/ QUOTE ]

And I heard that they haven't even used half of the land that they own yet.

Matthew

I_Money · September 10th, 2004, 02:46

The Airport in Saudi Arabia (I would guess Ryad), is the largest airport by land mass in the world.

SteveC · September 10th, 2004, 08:43

[ QUOTE ]
The Airport in Saudi Arabia (I would guess Ryad), is the largest airport by land mass in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]Maybe Jeddah, because of the Haj?

EDUC8-or · September 10th, 2004, 09:35

Orlando International has 17L, 17R, 35R, 35L, 18L, 18R, 36R, and 36L. From the air they look like they're all alligned in the same direction.

asl · September 11th, 2004, 09:23

You missed CLE, it has 6-24L/C/R and a 10-28 cross-wind. In genious layout means they could use the cross-wind and 6L-24R together as they don't intersect. But the taxiways don't seem to allow 24L and 24C to be used for departures very easily from full length, without taxiing on 28.
If anyone out there knows the standard operating patterns for the r'ways at CLE I'd be interested to know, cos looking at the taxi diagram I can't make much sense of it!!

N519AT · September 11th, 2004, 15:53

[ QUOTE ]

I had heard that they were putting in a new control tower. I drive past Sky Harbor everyday for work on SR143 and I have seen no real evidence of new contruction.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah they are, it will be between the terminal 4 garage and taxiway S. They are also adding on to terminal 4, on the south side.

September 9th, 2004, 16:29	#1
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	KPHX Now, I'm from PHX and I remember when that airport had a Terminal 1 that Hughes Air West was flying out of, no Terminal 4, only two runways, and the AZ Air National Guard was flying KC-97s. I flew out of there for my initial PPL in 1985 and was based there for my second cargo job 10 years later. In that time, the airfield has expanded a lot, namely getting a thrid runway built. With nothing to do as duty officer today, I was idly paging through the FLIP IAP book and looked at the airfield diagram of KPHX to see where some of the new stuff is located, and I noticed that the magnetic heading for all three runways is 077.7/257.7 degrees. My question is, why didn't the south runway retain it's "8-26" designation [when there was only 8L/R - 26L/R] and when the third runway was added, have it also become 8-26; so you have a 8 L/C/R - 26 L/C/R; as opposed to having it the way it is now with the north runway still being 8-26, and the south runway being 7L/R - 25L/R?

September 9th, 2004, 17:24	#2
flyover Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,389	Re: KPHX [ QUOTE ] Now, I'm from PHX and I remember when that airport had a Terminal 1 that Hughes Air West was flying out of, no Terminal 4, only two runways, and the AZ Air National Guard was flying KC-97s. I flew out of there for my initial PPL in 1985 and was based there for my second cargo job 10 years later. In that time, the airfield has expanded a lot, namely getting a thrid runway built. With nothing to do as duty officer today, I was idly paging through the FLIP IAP book and looked at the airfield diagram of KPHX to see where some of the new stuff is located, and I noticed that the magnetic heading for all three runways is 077.7/257.7 degrees. My question is, why didn't the south runway retain it's "8-26" designation and when the third runway was added, have it also become 8-26; so you have a 8 L/C/R - 26 L/C/R; as opposed to having it the way it is now with the north runway still being 8-26, and the south runway being 7L/R - 26L/R? [/ QUOTE ] You are muccccch older than I guessed. But 7-26 is a messed up way to label runways. Maybe the budget ran out before they could change the 6s to 5s. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

September 9th, 2004, 17:28	#3
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: KPHX [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Now, I'm from PHX and I remember when that airport had a Terminal 1 that Hughes Air West was flying out of, no Terminal 4, only two runways, and the AZ Air National Guard was flying KC-97s. I flew out of there for my initial PPL in 1985 and was based there for my second cargo job 10 years later. In that time, the airfield has expanded a lot, namely getting a thrid runway built. With nothing to do as duty officer today, I was idly paging through the FLIP IAP book and looked at the airfield diagram of KPHX to see where some of the new stuff is located, and I noticed that the magnetic heading for all three runways is 077.7/257.7 degrees. My question is, why didn't the south runway retain it's "8-26" designation and when the third runway was added, have it also become 8-26; so you have a 8 L/C/R - 26 L/C/R; as opposed to having it the way it is now with the north runway still being 8-26, and the south runway being 7L/R - 26L/R? [/ QUOTE ] You are muccccch older than I guessed. But 7-26 is a messed up way to label runways. Maybe the budget ran out before they could change the 6s to 5s. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] LOL. Typo on my part. Now corrected! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Thx for the catch! Last sentence is "....7L/R - 25L/R" [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

September 9th, 2004, 17:58	#4
aloft Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Inside your OODA loop Posts: 6,723	Re: KPHX Might be just my perception, but I've noticed lately that the FAA seems to be distancing itself from the practice of having L/C/R runways and the potential for confusion they offer. Take a look at KDEN's airport diagram.

September 9th, 2004, 18:06	#5
flyhigh Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Boston Posts: 614	Re: KPHX [ QUOTE ] Take a look at KDEN's airport diagram. [/ QUOTE ] KDEN diagram

September 9th, 2004, 18:19	#6
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: KPHX [ QUOTE ] Might be just my perception, but I've noticed lately that the FAA seems to be distancing itself from the practice of having L/C/R runways and the potential for confusion they offer. Take a look at KDEN's airport diagram. [/ QUOTE ] Have noticed that too. And I think that may be what it is. But IMO there's really no more confusion than there being L/R runways. I mean, if a pilot can't manage a L/C/R runway combo, they shouldn't be holding a license. So I'm not sure why the FAA would do this, but I do agree that it is the way they seem to be going. Only airports off the top of my head I can think of with L/C/R runways is: KIWA KDFW KEND KPIT KDLF KPCA (4 parallel runways)

September 9th, 2004, 18:27	#7
Minnesota_Flyer Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: the Twin Cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul Posts: 1,895	Re: KPHX [ QUOTE ] Have noticed that too. And I think that may be what it is. But IMO there's really no more confusion than there being L/R runways. I mean, if a pilot can't manage a L/C/R runway combo, they shouldn't be holding a license. So I'm not sure why the FAA would do this, but I do agree that it is the way they seem to be going. [/ QUOTE ] Seems to me its more clear to have the runways marked L/C/R than to give them slightly different numbers. "So, is Rwy 26 to the left or right of Rwy 27??" MF

September 9th, 2004, 19:18	#8
tonyw Old Skool Join Date: May 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 15,165	Re: KPHX We'll find out soon enough, if the ORD stuff gets done. There will be six, count 'em, six parallel runways. What do you do then?

September 9th, 2004, 19:20	#9
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,825 Blog Entries: 1	Re: KPHX DFW has 18R, 18L, 17L, 17C, 17R... Wait, durr, that's only 5.. but you can still get fairly creative!

September 9th, 2004, 19:23	#10
tonyw Old Skool Join Date: May 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 15,165	Re: KPHX LOL. I think the folks in Chicago decided to show the folks down in Texas that it is not true that everything is bigger in Texas. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

September 9th, 2004, 20:10	#11
flyover Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,389	Re: KPHX [ QUOTE ] Seems to me its more clear to have the runways marked L/C/R than to give them slightly different numbers. "So, is Rwy 26 to the left or right of Rwy 27??" MF [/ QUOTE ] I'd have to disagree. Especially where you have parallel approaches I'd like to see both approach runways have different numbers, ala ATL. It just seems to me that there is less chance of confusing "eight left" and "nine right" than "eight left" and "eight right" strictly from a radio communications standpoint.

September 9th, 2004, 20:25	#12
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,825 Blog Entries: 1	Re: KPHX I like the 26 L/R, 27 L/R thing too. Easy to remember and a little harder to screw up. It's the 'bottoms are usually bigger in the south' rule of thumb. 27 is 'bigger' than 26 and on the 'bottom' (south part of the airport). Inboard runways are departure and the Outboard runways are arrival!

September 10th, 2004, 00:36	#13
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,252	Re: KPHX [ QUOTE ] Only airports off the top of my head I can think of with L/C/R runways is: KIWA KDFW KEND KPIT KDLF KPCA (4 parallel runways) [/ QUOTE ] You can add MEM to that list. 18L/C/R and a 9/27 crossing runway. They tend to use all four at once, too. Especially at night when FedEx pretty much owns the place.

September 10th, 2004, 00:53	#14
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,403	Re: KPHX [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Only airports off the top of my head I can think of with L/C/R runways is: KIWA KDFW KEND KPIT KDLF KPCA (4 parallel runways) [/ QUOTE ] You can add MEM to that list. 18L/C/R and a 9/27 crossing runway. They tend to use all four at once, too. Especially at night when FedEx pretty much owns the place. [/ QUOTE ] Add BNA. 2L/C/R, with 13/31 crossing.

September 10th, 2004, 01:19	#15
Maximillian_Jenius Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: KPHX, KFFZ, KIWA Posts: 18,661	Re: KPHX PHX has definately grown in the past couple of years. There currently doing some kind of construction. I had heard that they were putting in a new control tower. I drive past Sky Harbor everyday for work on SR143 and I have seen no real evidence of new contruction. KPHX looks kinda sandwiched in and looks like it's growth is severely limited as a direct result. I heard that they might add another north parallel runways in the distant future. Not sure how though. Lastly DFW is just a huge freaking monster. I think that it is the biggest airport in the country land wise. I have an atlas of and they have airports in a grey color and DFW is the largest that I have seen when flipping thru major cities. I think that in DFW's future plans there going to add a third west runway. Making it 18L/18C/18R much like the east side of the field. Matthew

September 10th, 2004, 02:25	#16
MissedApproach Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 537	Re: KPHX I had an ATC class tought by a PHX tower controller last semester and a student asked the same question. The reason, like most things in the world, had to do with money. Because the runway headings eventually "will" intersect in space, control operations become more complex and the FAA moves PHX up a notch on its funding scale. Obviously the runways are parallel and the FAA knows this. Seems like an awful lot of work to get around their own system but eh, thats government.

September 10th, 2004, 02:29	#17
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,825 Blog Entries: 1	Re: KPHX [ QUOTE ] Lastly DFW is just a huge freaking monster. I think that it is the biggest airport in the country land wise. I have an atlas of and they have airports in a grey color and DFW is the largest that I have seen when flipping thru major cities. [/ QUOTE ] Spans three counties!

September 10th, 2004, 02:43	#18
Maximillian_Jenius Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: KPHX, KFFZ, KIWA Posts: 18,661	Re: KPHX [/ QUOTE ] Spans three counties! [/ QUOTE ] And I heard that they haven't even used half of the land that they own yet. Matthew

September 10th, 2004, 02:46	#19
I_Money Moderator Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Socal Posts: 5,645	Re: KPHX The Airport in Saudi Arabia (I would guess Ryad), is the largest airport by land mass in the world.

September 10th, 2004, 08:43	#20
SteveC Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: GRR Posts: 8,362	Re: KPHX [ QUOTE ] The Airport in Saudi Arabia (I would guess Ryad), is the largest airport by land mass in the world. [/ QUOTE ]Maybe Jeddah, because of the Haj?

September 10th, 2004, 09:35	#21
EDUC8-or Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: NC Posts: 2,146	Re: KPHX Orlando International has 17L, 17R, 35R, 35L, 18L, 18R, 36R, and 36L. From the air they look like they're all alligned in the same direction.

September 11th, 2004, 09:23	#22
asl Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Dartford,UK (near London) Posts: 241	Re: KPHX You missed CLE, it has 6-24L/C/R and a 10-28 cross-wind. In genious layout means they could use the cross-wind and 6L-24R together as they don't intersect. But the taxiways don't seem to allow 24L and 24C to be used for departures very easily from full length, without taxiing on 28. If anyone out there knows the standard operating patterns for the r'ways at CLE I'd be interested to know, cos looking at the taxi diagram I can't make much sense of it!!

September 11th, 2004, 15:53	#23
N519AT Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: 41-41-00.830N 083-47-26.160W Posts: 494	Re: KPHX [ QUOTE ] I had heard that they were putting in a new control tower. I drive past Sky Harbor everyday for work on SR143 and I have seen no real evidence of new contruction. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah they are, it will be between the terminal 4 garage and taxiway S. They are also adding on to terminal 4, on the south side.

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