A little elaboration on 91.117

mastermags · September 8th, 2004, 23:50

As I heard the controller call out a few jets today who were speeding, I reread 117 and had a question about part c. By "the airspace area designated for a Class B airport" they mean the surface-based to 10000' portion of the wedding cake, correct? I should know this already, but hopefully I will in a moment.

Tired · September 9th, 2004, 01:23

If you are under the shelf then you should 200 or below.

Now the trick is knowing when you are under the shelf. We don't carry VFR charts, so we just go 250 unless the controller asks us to slow.

Cheechako · September 11th, 2004, 01:17

Hmm... sounds like a good way to get violated. Every class B airport has a diagram of the boundries in the Jepp charts. You are the PIC and YOU are the one who needs to know which airspace you are in.

San Jose is a good example. We climb out of there at 200 kts. until either 8000 MSL (base of SFO Class B) or the 30nm SFO ring. ATC will not say a thing about your speed, but if a fed is in the jumpseat or looking over the controller's shoulder you're busted.

MidlifeFlyer · September 11th, 2004, 08:14

[ QUOTE ]
If you are under the shelf then you should 200 or below.

Now the trick is knowing when you are under the shelf. We don't carry VFR charts, so we just go 250 unless the controller asks us to slow.

[/ QUOTE ]So? The IFR enroute and area charts show the Class B area also.

MidlifeFlyer · September 11th, 2004, 08:20

"airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport" may have been a bad choice of words. Sounds like it may be talking abut something much closer in, but it's referring to all of the area under the shelf all the way out.

I've never seen it in the US, but I think some other countries have Class B airspace that is not tied to a Class B primary airport.

casey · September 11th, 2004, 13:15

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now the trick is knowing when you are under the shelf. We don't carry VFR charts, so we just go 250 unless the controller asks us to slow.

[/ QUOTE ]So? The IFR enroute and area charts show the Class B area also.

[/ QUOTE ]

The IFR enroute charts show the lateral limits of the Bravo, they do not give you the vertical limits. Just looking at the chart will tell you that you are either in/above/under the Bravo, but not which of those 3 is true.

In the bravo, the speed limit is 250 (except in houston), above the bravo its Mach 1.0 (above 10k ft), and below its 200.

seagull · September 11th, 2004, 13:25

The limit is 200 kts unless 91.117d applies, which it
often will for jets. Still, can't go faster than MMS for the configuration.

As for the chart, if the Jepp 10-1B Class B chart is not part of your subscription, it should be....

Yes, you CAN and WILL get violated for this if it's noticed!

FlyChicaga · September 11th, 2004, 14:20

We actually had some crews from my former company get called out by ATC on the 200 below Class B issue. For the longest time we would truck out westbound at 3000' doing 250 knots (below the O'Hare arrivals) to get out of there, the whole time below Class B. I actually had captains question why I was slowing to 200 knots.

Look in your Jepps. The Class B charts are there with vertical limits.

The same goes with acceleration to 250 knots for the climb out of a Class C or D airport, within 4 miles and 2500' AGL.

MikeD · September 11th, 2004, 18:18

It's nice to be exempt.

JAM · September 13th, 2004, 18:20

[ QUOTE ]
It's nice to be exempt.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's nice to be able to shoot back! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

September 8th, 2004, 23:50	#1
mastermags Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Atlanta, Ga Posts: 1,300	A little elaboration on 91.117 As I heard the controller call out a few jets today who were speeding, I reread 117 and had a question about part c. By "the airspace area designated for a Class B airport" they mean the surface-based to 10000' portion of the wedding cake, correct? I should know this already, but hopefully I will in a moment.

September 9th, 2004, 01:23	#2
Tired Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 514	Re: A little elaboration on 91.117 If you are under the shelf then you should 200 or below. Now the trick is knowing when you are under the shelf. We don't carry VFR charts, so we just go 250 unless the controller asks us to slow.

September 11th, 2004, 01:17	#3
Cheechako Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Wasilla, AK Posts: 965	Re: A little elaboration on 91.117 Hmm... sounds like a good way to get violated. Every class B airport has a diagram of the boundries in the Jepp charts. You are the PIC and YOU are the one who needs to know which airspace you are in. San Jose is a good example. We climb out of there at 200 kts. until either 8000 MSL (base of SFO Class B) or the 30nm SFO ring. ATC will not say a thing about your speed, but if a fed is in the jumpseat or looking over the controller's shoulder you're busted.

September 11th, 2004, 08:14	#4
MidlifeFlyer Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 2,918	Re: A little elaboration on 91.117 [ QUOTE ] If you are under the shelf then you should 200 or below. Now the trick is knowing when you are under the shelf. We don't carry VFR charts, so we just go 250 unless the controller asks us to slow. [/ QUOTE ]So? The IFR enroute and area charts show the Class B area also.

September 11th, 2004, 08:20	#5
MidlifeFlyer Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 2,918	Re: A little elaboration on 91.117 "airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport" may have been a bad choice of words. Sounds like it may be talking abut something much closer in, but it's referring to all of the area under the shelf all the way out. I've never seen it in the US, but I think some other countries have Class B airspace that is not tied to a Class B primary airport.

September 11th, 2004, 13:15	#6
casey Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: abe Posts: 852	Re: A little elaboration on 91.117 [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Now the trick is knowing when you are under the shelf. We don't carry VFR charts, so we just go 250 unless the controller asks us to slow. [/ QUOTE ]So? The IFR enroute and area charts show the Class B area also. [/ QUOTE ] The IFR enroute charts show the lateral limits of the Bravo, they do not give you the vertical limits. Just looking at the chart will tell you that you are either in/above/under the Bravo, but not which of those 3 is true. In the bravo, the speed limit is 250 (except in houston), above the bravo its Mach 1.0 (above 10k ft), and below its 200.

September 11th, 2004, 13:25	#7
seagull Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 2,043	Re: A little elaboration on 91.117 The limit is 200 kts unless 91.117d applies, which it often will for jets. Still, can't go faster than MMS for the configuration. As for the chart, if the Jepp 10-1B Class B chart is not part of your subscription, it should be.... Yes, you CAN and WILL get violated for this if it's noticed!

September 11th, 2004, 14:20	#8
FlyChicaga Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 4,750	Re: A little elaboration on 91.117 We actually had some crews from my former company get called out by ATC on the 200 below Class B issue. For the longest time we would truck out westbound at 3000' doing 250 knots (below the O'Hare arrivals) to get out of there, the whole time below Class B. I actually had captains question why I was slowing to 200 knots. Look in your Jepps. The Class B charts are there with vertical limits. The same goes with acceleration to 250 knots for the climb out of a Class C or D airport, within 4 miles and 2500' AGL.

September 11th, 2004, 18:18	#9
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: A little elaboration on 91.117 It's nice to be exempt.

September 13th, 2004, 18:20	#10
JAM Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 246	Re: A little elaboration on 91.117 [ QUOTE ] It's nice to be exempt. [/ QUOTE ] It's nice to be able to shoot back! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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