Update...NWA Pilots Fired...Wrong Airport Ldg...

JEP · September 8th, 2004, 21:20

Just posted in the Minneapolis paper:
---------------------------------------------------------
[ QUOTE ]
NWA pilots fired for landing at wrong airport
Liz Fedor, Star Tribune
September 9, 2004 NWA0909

Two Northwest Airlines pilots have been fired for landing at the wrong South Dakota airport in June, but the pilots union said Wednesday that it is fighting to get those jobs restored.

The pilots landed an Airbus A319 at Ellsworth Air Force Base when they were supposed to touch down at Rapid City Regional Airport, about seven miles away.

The Twin Cities-Rapid City flight had 117 passengers on board when the pilots erred. The incident prompted investigations by Northwest Airlines and the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA).

The airline fired the pilots on July 23, and pilot grievances were filed against the airline on Aug. 20, said Will Holman, spokesman for the Northwest branch of the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA).

"The pilots made a mistake, but we believe the punishment is excessive," Holman said Wednesday. "They do have many years of service for Northwest along with good work records."

A hearing for the two unidentified pilots will be held this fall.

About two years ago, an ALPA grievance was successful in overturning the firing of a Northwest pilot, Holman said. But he declined to provide details of that case.

A union attorney will represent the Northwest pilots in the grievance proceeding.

An airline spokeswoman declined to confirm the pilot terminations, because she said the company does not comment on "individual personnel matters."

The federal government is still investigating the June 19 flight, said Elizabeth Isham Cory, a spokeswoman for the FAA.

Cory did not estimate when a report might be issued. If the FAA finds regulatory violations, she said the agency could choose from a range of disciplinary actions against the pilots, such as a suspension or a fine.

In addition to assessing the performance of the pilots, Cory said the FAA is studying tapes of communications with the air traffic controllers, reviewing radar data, and examining compliance with a host of flight operation and training regulations.

"There is a lot of material that we review in terms of regulatory violations," she said. "They take as long as they need to do a thorough job."

ALPA's Holman said that Northwest has updated a Rapid City chart that pilots use to understand the airport layout and approaches. The new version clearly spells out the proximity of Ellsworth to the Rapid City airport, he said.

"It does show that they have similar runway alignments," Holman said.

Liz Fedor is at

lfedor@startribune.com.

[/ QUOTE ]

kellwolf · September 8th, 2004, 22:22

Guess those Delta pilots that missed DAB should start looking for a new job now.....

Doug Taylor · September 9th, 2004, 11:06

Is there a press release or something because the only thing I'm reading is that it was CRJ-70 from some other forums.

It's way easier than you think! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I conducted a fantastic visual approach approach down to about 3000 feet into Offit AFB while enroute from MCI to OMA!

Plus, after flying becomes dangerously routine, you start to get a little 'tunnel vision' at times. When you're solely a GA pilot, you're much more aware of how many airports are out there. Whether it be constantly looking for a diversionary airport in case of engine failure, or putzing around on cross countries to small and medium-sized airports.

But for example, flying into JAN a few nights ago, the ILS/LOC was out of service, it was very dark, and the parallel runway was unlit because it was down for construction. I'm not all that familiar with Jackson so the captain and I spent the last 30 minutes of the flight talking about what we'd see, when we'd see it and how I planned to turn everything off and fly it like a Cessna because we were in an AHRS jet (no IRU's) and any map data we had was most likely going to be unreliable.

What side is the PAPI on, what a PAPI looks like, where the terminal should be, any discernable lights from the road, etc. Plus how we were going to get set up and stabilized early to give more opportunity to look at the airport environment.

Popped out the clouds, cross checked all available data, pestered tower and landed in Jackson, MI.

Some guys you fly with don't want to bother with all of that junk because they've been in and out of that airport a thousand times and how, "Well, there's the airport, call for the visual".

99.99999% of the time, that's the airport.

But that little 0.000001% happened to rev up the "Murphy's Law" machine for the NWA crew.

kellwolf · September 9th, 2004, 11:14

[ QUOTE ]
Popped out the clouds, cross checked all available data, pestered tower and landed in Jackson, MI.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait, you were flying into JAN? You missed the whole STATE, dude! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Doug Taylor · September 9th, 2004, 11:19

Sorry! Was going to type Mississippi but was too lazy! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

kellwolf · September 9th, 2004, 11:20

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry! Was going to type Mississippi but was too lazy!

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel your pain. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Timbuff10 · September 9th, 2004, 11:21

If you are coming from the south and are going to Peter O'knight airport in Tampa it would be very easy to land at that airforce base a few miles to the southwest of it. The alignment is nearly identical and they way they are laid out on their little piece of land by the water looks the same too. ATC gave us a good lecture about it when we were still 30 miles out or so, said it is failry common for people to have their planes taken away after landing at the wrong airport.

I can definetly see how it happens with all that is going on during that phase of flight. It is very easy to see the airport when you are XX miles out, cxl flt following and then not think about it again till you are lost on the taxiways.

Then again, I started to lineup for a prison on my first ever cross country flight... Yikes!

Doug Taylor · September 9th, 2004, 11:26

There's a couple of airports in the southeast that approach will "cautiously" ignore you when you call "airports in sight".

We were on a long downwind to an airport which I can't remember and the captain kept saying "call airport in sight! call airport in sight!"

Well, he was looking at the wrong airport.

I looked down at the FMS and said, well, it really doesn't look like THAT'S out airport, our airport is another 15 NM ahead.

"Call airport in sight!"

"Ok, well XYZ approach, we have the field"

"Airliner 123, the field is 12 o'clock 14 miles, you're presently 5 miles from (the wrong airport)"

Silence.

But I knew deep down inside he was happy I polititely objected and ATC didn't let him loose on the visual.

kellwolf · September 9th, 2004, 11:28

[ QUOTE ]
If you are coming from the south and are going to Peter O'knight airport in Tampa it would be very easy to land at that airforce base a few miles to the southwest of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stan, time to tell the story about the guy who got lost and almost landed at the wrong airport twice. MacDill and TPA wasn't it? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Soonermurph · September 9th, 2004, 11:47

[ QUOTE ]
"Airliner 123, the field is 12 o'clock 14 miles, you're presently 5 miles from (the wrong airport)"

[/ QUOTE ]

One little Garmin 430 would solve that problem.

Minnesota_Flyer · September 9th, 2004, 11:48

[ QUOTE ]
It's way easier than you think! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I conducted a fantastic visual approach approach down to about 3000 feet into Offit AFB while enroute from MCI to OMA!

[/ QUOTE ]

Around Omaha, Offut AFB, OMA, and CBF are all really close together. I stopped at CBF for fuel on a long x-country from KMIC to KSLN and back. They have several press clippings hanging in the FBO from incidents in which large commercial airliners accidentally landed at CBF instead of OMA. The first was a DC-8 (I think) in the 50's and the second was a 727 (I think) in the 60's-70's. Both were on an instrument approach to OMA and landed at the first airport they saw, which turned out not to be OMA. What's really funny is that when the DC-8 dropped in, CBF was not yet paved. The flight crew's first hint that something was amiss was the sudden stop as the wheels sunk to the hubs in the muddy runway (it was winter/spring). It sounded like they had to build a plywood runway to get the thing back out. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

MF

Kingairer · September 9th, 2004, 11:51

[ QUOTE ]
Is there a press release or something because the only thing I'm reading is that it was CRJ-70 from some other forums.

It's way easier than you think! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I conducted a fantastic visual approach approach down to about 3000 feet into Offit AFB while enroute from MCI to OMA!

Plus, after flying becomes dangerously routine, you start to get a little 'tunnel vision' at times. When you're solely a GA pilot, you're much more aware of how many airports are out there. Whether it be constantly looking for a diversionary airport in case of engine failure, or putzing around on cross countries to small and medium-sized airports.

But for example, flying into JAN a few nights ago, the ILS/LOC was out of service, it was very dark, and the parallel runway was unlit because it was down for construction. I'm not all that familiar with Jackson so the captain and I spent the last 30 minutes of the flight talking about what we'd see, when we'd see it and how I planned to turn everything off and fly it like a Cessna because we were in an AHRS jet (no IRU's) and any map data we had was most likely going to be unreliable.

What side is the PAPI on, what a PAPI looks like, where the terminal should be, any discernable lights from the road, etc. Plus how we were going to get set up and stabilized early to give more opportunity to look at the airport environment.

Popped out the clouds, cross checked all available data, pestered tower and landed in Jackson, MI.

Some guys you fly with don't want to bother with all of that junk because they've been in and out of that airport a thousand times and how, "Well, there's the airport, call for the visual".

99.99999% of the time, that's the airport.

But that little 0.000001% happened to rev up the "Murphy's Law" machine for the NWA crew.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doug, Doesnt sound like your technique worked. Espcially since you landed in Jackson Michigan and not not Jackson Mississippi (MS). [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/spin2.gif[/img]

rv7 · September 9th, 2004, 12:45

[ QUOTE ]
Stan, time to tell the story about the guy who got lost and almost landed at the wrong airport twice. MacDill and TPA wasn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well I'm no Stan and I don't know the story but I do know just how close MacDill AFB and Peter O'Knight are. I also know that you definately want to accidentally land there, seeing as it is Central Command and all. People bust the MacDill class D all the time, their airspace starts less than a mile from O'Knight.

SteveC · September 9th, 2004, 18:14

[ QUOTE ]
Doug, Doesnt sound like your technique worked. Espcially since you landed in Jackson Michigan and not not Jackson Mississippi (MS). [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/spin2.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Tsk, tsk, tsk.....SA, KA. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Kellwolf:[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Popped out the clouds, cross checked all available data, pestered tower and landed in Jackson, MI.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wait, you were flying into JAN? You missed the whole STATE, dude! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
Doug:[ QUOTE ]
Sorry! Was going to type Mississippi but was too lazy! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

September 8th, 2004, 21:20	#1
JEP Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Eden Prairie, MN (KFCM) (KMSP) Posts: 10,475 Blog Entries: 1	Update...NWA Pilots Fired...Wrong Airport Ldg... Just posted in the Minneapolis paper: --------------------------------------------------------- [ QUOTE ] NWA pilots fired for landing at wrong airport Liz Fedor, Star Tribune September 9, 2004 NWA0909 Two Northwest Airlines pilots have been fired for landing at the wrong South Dakota airport in June, but the pilots union said Wednesday that it is fighting to get those jobs restored. The pilots landed an Airbus A319 at Ellsworth Air Force Base when they were supposed to touch down at Rapid City Regional Airport, about seven miles away. The Twin Cities-Rapid City flight had 117 passengers on board when the pilots erred. The incident prompted investigations by Northwest Airlines and the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). The airline fired the pilots on July 23, and pilot grievances were filed against the airline on Aug. 20, said Will Holman, spokesman for the Northwest branch of the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA). "The pilots made a mistake, but we believe the punishment is excessive," Holman said Wednesday. "They do have many years of service for Northwest along with good work records." A hearing for the two unidentified pilots will be held this fall. About two years ago, an ALPA grievance was successful in overturning the firing of a Northwest pilot, Holman said. But he declined to provide details of that case. A union attorney will represent the Northwest pilots in the grievance proceeding. An airline spokeswoman declined to confirm the pilot terminations, because she said the company does not comment on "individual personnel matters." The federal government is still investigating the June 19 flight, said Elizabeth Isham Cory, a spokeswoman for the FAA. Cory did not estimate when a report might be issued. If the FAA finds regulatory violations, she said the agency could choose from a range of disciplinary actions against the pilots, such as a suspension or a fine. In addition to assessing the performance of the pilots, Cory said the FAA is studying tapes of communications with the air traffic controllers, reviewing radar data, and examining compliance with a host of flight operation and training regulations. "There is a lot of material that we review in terms of regulatory violations," she said. "They take as long as they need to do a thorough job." ALPA's Holman said that Northwest has updated a Rapid City chart that pilots use to understand the airport layout and approaches. The new version clearly spells out the proximity of Ellsworth to the Rapid City airport, he said. "It does show that they have similar runway alignments," Holman said. Liz Fedor is at lfedor@startribune.com. [/ QUOTE ]

September 8th, 2004, 22:22	#2
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,142	Re: Update...NWA Pilots Fired...Wrong Airport Ldg. Guess those Delta pilots that missed DAB should start looking for a new job now.....

September 9th, 2004, 11:06	#3
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,517 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Update...NWA Pilots Fired...Wrong Airport Ldg. Is there a press release or something because the only thing I'm reading is that it was CRJ-70 from some other forums. It's way easier than you think! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I conducted a fantastic visual approach approach down to about 3000 feet into Offit AFB while enroute from MCI to OMA! Plus, after flying becomes dangerously routine, you start to get a little 'tunnel vision' at times. When you're solely a GA pilot, you're much more aware of how many airports are out there. Whether it be constantly looking for a diversionary airport in case of engine failure, or putzing around on cross countries to small and medium-sized airports. But for example, flying into JAN a few nights ago, the ILS/LOC was out of service, it was very dark, and the parallel runway was unlit because it was down for construction. I'm not all that familiar with Jackson so the captain and I spent the last 30 minutes of the flight talking about what we'd see, when we'd see it and how I planned to turn everything off and fly it like a Cessna because we were in an AHRS jet (no IRU's) and any map data we had was most likely going to be unreliable. What side is the PAPI on, what a PAPI looks like, where the terminal should be, any discernable lights from the road, etc. Plus how we were going to get set up and stabilized early to give more opportunity to look at the airport environment. Popped out the clouds, cross checked all available data, pestered tower and landed in Jackson, MI. Some guys you fly with don't want to bother with all of that junk because they've been in and out of that airport a thousand times and how, "Well, there's the airport, call for the visual". 99.99999% of the time, that's the airport. But that little 0.000001% happened to rev up the "Murphy's Law" machine for the NWA crew.

September 9th, 2004, 11:14	#4
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,142	Re: Update...NWA Pilots Fired...Wrong Airport Ldg. [ QUOTE ] Popped out the clouds, cross checked all available data, pestered tower and landed in Jackson, MI. [/ QUOTE ] Wait, you were flying into JAN? You missed the whole STATE, dude! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

September 9th, 2004, 11:19	#5
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,517 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Update...NWA Pilots Fired...Wrong Airport Ldg. Sorry! Was going to type Mississippi but was too lazy! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

September 9th, 2004, 11:20	#6
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,142	Re: Update...NWA Pilots Fired...Wrong Airport Ldg. [ QUOTE ] Sorry! Was going to type Mississippi but was too lazy! [/ QUOTE ] I feel your pain. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

September 9th, 2004, 11:21	#7
Timbuff10 Old Skool Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Coloradan in Orange County, CA Posts: 3,233	Re: Update...NWA Pilots Fired...Wrong Airport Ldg. If you are coming from the south and are going to Peter O'knight airport in Tampa it would be very easy to land at that airforce base a few miles to the southwest of it. The alignment is nearly identical and they way they are laid out on their little piece of land by the water looks the same too. ATC gave us a good lecture about it when we were still 30 miles out or so, said it is failry common for people to have their planes taken away after landing at the wrong airport. I can definetly see how it happens with all that is going on during that phase of flight. It is very easy to see the airport when you are XX miles out, cxl flt following and then not think about it again till you are lost on the taxiways. Then again, I started to lineup for a prison on my first ever cross country flight... Yikes!

September 9th, 2004, 11:26	#8
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,517 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Update...NWA Pilots Fired...Wrong Airport Ldg. There's a couple of airports in the southeast that approach will "cautiously" ignore you when you call "airports in sight". We were on a long downwind to an airport which I can't remember and the captain kept saying "call airport in sight! call airport in sight!" Well, he was looking at the wrong airport. I looked down at the FMS and said, well, it really doesn't look like THAT'S out airport, our airport is another 15 NM ahead. "Call airport in sight!" "Ok, well XYZ approach, we have the field" "Airliner 123, the field is 12 o'clock 14 miles, you're presently 5 miles from (the wrong airport)" Silence. But I knew deep down inside he was happy I polititely objected and ATC didn't let him loose on the visual.

September 9th, 2004, 11:28	#9
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,142	Re: Update...NWA Pilots Fired...Wrong Airport Ldg. [ QUOTE ] If you are coming from the south and are going to Peter O'knight airport in Tampa it would be very easy to land at that airforce base a few miles to the southwest of it. [/ QUOTE ] Stan, time to tell the story about the guy who got lost and almost landed at the wrong airport twice. MacDill and TPA wasn't it? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

September 9th, 2004, 11:47	#10
Soonermurph Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 225	Re: Update...NWA Pilots Fired...Wrong Airport Ldg. [ QUOTE ] "Airliner 123, the field is 12 o'clock 14 miles, you're presently 5 miles from (the wrong airport)" [/ QUOTE ] One little Garmin 430 would solve that problem.

September 9th, 2004, 11:48	#11
Minnesota_Flyer Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: the Twin Cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul Posts: 1,895	Re: Update...NWA Pilots Fired...Wrong Airport Ldg. [ QUOTE ] It's way easier than you think! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I conducted a fantastic visual approach approach down to about 3000 feet into Offit AFB while enroute from MCI to OMA! [/ QUOTE ] Around Omaha, Offut AFB, OMA, and CBF are all really close together. I stopped at CBF for fuel on a long x-country from KMIC to KSLN and back. They have several press clippings hanging in the FBO from incidents in which large commercial airliners accidentally landed at CBF instead of OMA. The first was a DC-8 (I think) in the 50's and the second was a 727 (I think) in the 60's-70's. Both were on an instrument approach to OMA and landed at the first airport they saw, which turned out not to be OMA. What's really funny is that when the DC-8 dropped in, CBF was not yet paved. The flight crew's first hint that something was amiss was the sudden stop as the wheels sunk to the hubs in the muddy runway (it was winter/spring). It sounded like they had to build a plywood runway to get the thing back out. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] MF

September 9th, 2004, 11:51	#12
Kingairer Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Nomadic...World Wide Boobie Bungalow Bouncer Posts: 3,162	Re: Update...NWA Pilots Fired...Wrong Airport Ldg. [ QUOTE ] Is there a press release or something because the only thing I'm reading is that it was CRJ-70 from some other forums. It's way easier than you think! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I conducted a fantastic visual approach approach down to about 3000 feet into Offit AFB while enroute from MCI to OMA! Plus, after flying becomes dangerously routine, you start to get a little 'tunnel vision' at times. When you're solely a GA pilot, you're much more aware of how many airports are out there. Whether it be constantly looking for a diversionary airport in case of engine failure, or putzing around on cross countries to small and medium-sized airports. But for example, flying into JAN a few nights ago, the ILS/LOC was out of service, it was very dark, and the parallel runway was unlit because it was down for construction. I'm not all that familiar with Jackson so the captain and I spent the last 30 minutes of the flight talking about what we'd see, when we'd see it and how I planned to turn everything off and fly it like a Cessna because we were in an AHRS jet (no IRU's) and any map data we had was most likely going to be unreliable. What side is the PAPI on, what a PAPI looks like, where the terminal should be, any discernable lights from the road, etc. Plus how we were going to get set up and stabilized early to give more opportunity to look at the airport environment. Popped out the clouds, cross checked all available data, pestered tower and landed in Jackson, MI. Some guys you fly with don't want to bother with all of that junk because they've been in and out of that airport a thousand times and how, "Well, there's the airport, call for the visual". 99.99999% of the time, that's the airport. But that little 0.000001% happened to rev up the "Murphy's Law" machine for the NWA crew. [/ QUOTE ] Doug, Doesnt sound like your technique worked. Espcially since you landed in Jackson Michigan and not not Jackson Mississippi (MS). [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/spin2.gif[/img]

September 9th, 2004, 12:45	#13
rv7 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 252	Re: Update...NWA Pilots Fired...Wrong Airport Ldg. [ QUOTE ] Stan, time to tell the story about the guy who got lost and almost landed at the wrong airport twice. MacDill and TPA wasn't it? [/ QUOTE ] Well I'm no Stan and I don't know the story but I do know just how close MacDill AFB and Peter O'Knight are. I also know that you definately want to accidentally land there, seeing as it is Central Command and all. People bust the MacDill class D all the time, their airspace starts less than a mile from O'Knight.

September 9th, 2004, 18:14	#14
SteveC Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: GRR Posts: 8,311	Re: Update...NWA Pilots Fired...Wrong Airport Ldg. [ QUOTE ] Doug, Doesnt sound like your technique worked. Espcially since you landed in Jackson Michigan and not not Jackson Mississippi (MS). [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/spin2.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Tsk, tsk, tsk.....SA, KA. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Kellwolf:[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Popped out the clouds, cross checked all available data, pestered tower and landed in Jackson, MI. [/ QUOTE ] Wait, you were flying into JAN? You missed the whole STATE, dude! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Doug:[ QUOTE ] Sorry! Was going to type Mississippi but was too lazy! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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