High-Wing TO Low-Wing

Windchill · September 8th, 2004, 19:19

This weekend I'm going down to Winchester (OKV) to get checked out in their Cherokee 140. The flight school I rent from only has high-wings 2-172s and 1-182RG.

I wanted to expand my horizons, learn new things, get a different perspective.

Any advice for transitioning from a high-wing a/c to a low-wing?

Tim06 · September 8th, 2004, 19:31

The brakes and steering on the ground are different in pipers. It is less of a "turn on a dime" effect as in the cessnas.

Seggy · September 8th, 2004, 20:42

I LOVE the low wing Pipers and Arrows after training in the 172. The cockpit just seems bigger and the visibility is a lot better in my opinion.

Alchemy · September 8th, 2004, 21:14

Cherokees actually have a slightly narrower cockpit than 172's. I would imagine that the cherokee 140 is a less than stellar climber (although that's pure speculation having never flown one)....luckily I've managed to stay out of anything weaker than a PA28-161 warrior. Even so, we're lucky to get 500 fpm out of the warrior with a full load.

All in all I prefer the 172....really the best trainer IMO. Easy to get in and out of, can carry a pasenger in the rear if you want, decent range and cruise speed, simple to operate and ubiquitous. I've found the 172 to have a higher cruise speed and better climb rates than the warrior as weell.

A PA28-180 is a nice machine though......

MrLeisure757 · September 8th, 2004, 21:24

I had been training at my flight school in the Piper Cherokee prior to August. In August I attended a camp at Daniel Webster College and flew my first 172R. I did enjoy it because of the condition it was in (2000 model). I also enjoyed being able to fit someone in the back with plenty of room for them. But I must say, that the visibility oh the High-Wing did bother me. I also enjoy the way the PA-140 handles over the Skyhawk. I think the 172 is an excellent plane and I could easily adapt to it for my training. Which I very well may, but that's another story..

For me, my preference is the Low-Wing Aircraft.

kellwolf · September 8th, 2004, 22:23

For me the biggest thing was I kept thinking I was gonna smack the nose wheel during the flare. Other than that, it wasn't that big of a deal. I did notice that the Seneca drives like a semi on the ground compared to the 172.

Windchill · September 8th, 2004, 23:08

Thanks for all of the insight, I'm looking forward to it.

How about regarding fuel? The high-wing is gravity fed and I always keep it on both . . . is that going to be a significant difference switching over?

mastermags · September 8th, 2004, 23:15

Just remember to turn on your fuel pump before switching tanks, before landing, and check that fuel pressure

kellwolf · September 9th, 2004, 02:44

[ QUOTE ]
Just remember to turn on your fuel pump before switching tanks, before landing, and check that fuel pressure

[/ QUOTE ]

And most importantly before takeoff.

Rule of thumb I use on tanks with no 'both' setting. Right tank from top to bottom of the hour, left tank bottom of the hour to top. Look at an analog watch, and you'll see what I mean. If it's a digital, well you're on your own. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

MidlifeFlyer · September 9th, 2004, 08:29

I'll echo most of the other comments. The two primary issues when transitioning from a CE-172 to a PA-28 are the view during landing and fuel management.

The PA-28 series tend to land flatter than the equivalent Cessna. Depending on seat position, for most of us the proper touchdown position is with the nose covering the end of the runway. In a Piper, you will still be able to see the runway in front of you.

Hint for all transitions to new tricycle airplanes: notice the position of the nose when the mains first leave the ground on takeoff. That's the view you want when landing it.

The other issue is fuel management. Because of the low fuel tanks, gravity feed no longer cuts it, so you need to use the auxiliary fuel pump for takeoff, landing, when switching tanks, and most maneuvers (like slow flight and steep turns). Every time you flip that fuel pump switch on or off, it should be accompanied by looking at the fuel flow gauge to confirm everything is working properly.

And, of course, you'll have to switch tanks periodically. I also use the analog watch method - big hand on the watch points to the tank in use.

ready2fly · September 9th, 2004, 10:06

[ QUOTE ]
we're lucky to get 500 fpm out of the warrior with a full load.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ain't that the truth?!?!?!

I still love the Pipers over the Cessnas for visibility, but the Warrior is anemic in a climb as compared to a C172. The Arrow, however.... now that's a whole `nuther ball game. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

However, when I'm turning downwind to base/base to final, I prefer the visibility that the low-wing affords me.

Just a preference.

R2F

Doug Taylor · September 9th, 2004, 10:49

I'm a 'low wing' guy too, but most of my light recip time is in high wings so it's a little more familiar.

Josh · September 9th, 2004, 14:19

You'll have to get used to seeing more stuff, especially in turns. And get used to actually seeing fuel in the tanks, rather that in a straw. One door is the norm on the PA28 models. Feels more car like inside, and less bathtub like. A 140 doesn't climb all that well with more than 1 or 2 people. 180HP is where the PA28 line starts to do good, but it is all about a PA28-235 [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

You will feel ground effect a little sooner on landing, and it'll want to go up out of it on takeoff quicker. Just a little closer to the ground so that pad of air under there has a little more push. Practice short field and soft field takeoff and landing techniques as much as you can right away, and that'll let you feel the main difference. And when flying those in the pattern, don't forget you can always see where the runway is! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Windchill · September 9th, 2004, 18:36

Okay, let's see if I recapped correctly:

1) I will be able to see more/better--particularly landing and turning

2) There is no "both" option for selecting fuel tanks

3) I need to use the fuel pump before taking off (how about engine starting, what's feeding the engine), when switching tanks in cruise (so you switch tanks, turn it on, verify flow, then turn it off?), and before landing

Another question: how do you troubleshoot if the pump seems to be inop? Open tank and bank to feed fuel to the engine?

USMCmech · September 9th, 2004, 19:02

All airplanes have an engine driven fuel pump.

Low wing airplanes must also have an electricaly driven boost or auxiluary pump.

High wing aircraft use graviety feed for a backup.

You should see a spike in fuel pressure when you turn on the boost pump.

CaptainChris87 · September 9th, 2004, 20:20

I like high wings because you get a better view, but it feels weird landing in a cessna though, I like low wing because it feels like a"real" airplane, and it feels much more right when landing. I've flown a Grummen T-cat and im currently working on the C 172sp, switching to the 152. But hey as long as its got wings [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Josh · September 9th, 2004, 21:43

[ QUOTE ]
I like high wings because you get a better view

[/ QUOTE ]

Better view of what?
The underside of the wing?
You like looking down at the gear or something? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/spin2.gif[/img]

Don't need a ladder to preflight a small low wing.

mtsu_av8er · September 9th, 2004, 22:11

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like high wings because you get a better view

[/ QUOTE ]

Better view of what?
The underside of the wing?
You like looking down at the gear or something? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/spin2.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]Funny you mention that...this week, with each 152 flight (no wheel pants), I've had a strange fixation on the wheels during touchdown!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

kellwolf · September 10th, 2004, 00:42

[ QUOTE ]
3) I need to use the fuel pump before taking off (how about engine starting, what's feeding the engine), when switching tanks in cruise (so you switch tanks, turn it on, verify flow, then turn it off?), and before landing

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you'll need that pump on for starting. It's how you prime the engine. I'd turn the fuel pump on BEFORE switching tanks, other than that, you've got it.

Josh · September 10th, 2004, 03:46

Now Lloyd, you're not supposed to land that way. Puts flat spots in the tires [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Look out the front window doesn't mean the one in front of you, it is supposed to be the one between you and the prop [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Josh · September 10th, 2004, 03:49

Fun to watch students try and start without the electric pump on. If engine is cold, it just takes a few extra cranks. But if you prime, things work fine. On a warm engine, electric pump isn't needed on an carb based low wing I've flown. Somehow, just about when you think students are actually checking what they do against a checklist, then they forget to use that electric pump. So I've found they just help a little, but are not totally necessary for starting.

mtsu_av8er · September 10th, 2004, 16:01

[ QUOTE ]
Now Lloyd, you're not supposed to land that way. Puts flat spots in the tires [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Look out the front window doesn't mean the one in front of you, it is supposed to be the one between you and the prop [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhh, so, that's the trick!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

When I fly with a student that's getting close to checkride time, or an advanced student, it's sooo easy to get distracted by things like birds and trucks....

I feel like Homer Simpson sometimes! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

September 8th, 2004, 19:19	#1
Windchill Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Mid-Atlantic, KMRB Posts: 1,925	High-Wing TO Low-Wing This weekend I'm going down to Winchester (OKV) to get checked out in their Cherokee 140. The flight school I rent from only has high-wings 2-172s and 1-182RG. I wanted to expand my horizons, learn new things, get a different perspective. Any advice for transitioning from a high-wing a/c to a low-wing?

September 8th, 2004, 19:31	#2
Tim06 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Danbury, CT Posts: 487	Re: High-Wing TO Low-Wing The brakes and steering on the ground are different in pipers. It is less of a "turn on a dime" effect as in the cessnas.

September 8th, 2004, 20:42	#3
Seggy Old Skool Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Somewhere in the Northeast Posts: 4,942	Re: High-Wing TO Low-Wing I LOVE the low wing Pipers and Arrows after training in the 172. The cockpit just seems bigger and the visibility is a lot better in my opinion.

September 8th, 2004, 21:14	#4
Alchemy Old Skool Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Austin, TX, USA Posts: 1,722	Re: High-Wing TO Low-Wing Cherokees actually have a slightly narrower cockpit than 172's. I would imagine that the cherokee 140 is a less than stellar climber (although that's pure speculation having never flown one)....luckily I've managed to stay out of anything weaker than a PA28-161 warrior. Even so, we're lucky to get 500 fpm out of the warrior with a full load. All in all I prefer the 172....really the best trainer IMO. Easy to get in and out of, can carry a pasenger in the rear if you want, decent range and cruise speed, simple to operate and ubiquitous. I've found the 172 to have a higher cruise speed and better climb rates than the warrior as weell. A PA28-180 is a nice machine though......

September 8th, 2004, 21:24	#5
MrLeisure757 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: . Posts: 751	Re: High-Wing TO Low-Wing I had been training at my flight school in the Piper Cherokee prior to August. In August I attended a camp at Daniel Webster College and flew my first 172R. I did enjoy it because of the condition it was in (2000 model). I also enjoyed being able to fit someone in the back with plenty of room for them. But I must say, that the visibility oh the High-Wing did bother me. I also enjoy the way the PA-140 handles over the Skyhawk. I think the 172 is an excellent plane and I could easily adapt to it for my training. Which I very well may, but that's another story.. For me, my preference is the Low-Wing Aircraft.

September 8th, 2004, 22:23	#6
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,257	Re: High-Wing TO Low-Wing For me the biggest thing was I kept thinking I was gonna smack the nose wheel during the flare. Other than that, it wasn't that big of a deal. I did notice that the Seneca drives like a semi on the ground compared to the 172.

September 8th, 2004, 23:08	#7
Windchill Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Mid-Atlantic, KMRB Posts: 1,925	Re: High-Wing TO Low-Wing Thanks for all of the insight, I'm looking forward to it. How about regarding fuel? The high-wing is gravity fed and I always keep it on both . . . is that going to be a significant difference switching over?

September 8th, 2004, 23:15	#8
mastermags Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Atlanta, Ga Posts: 1,300	Re: High-Wing TO Low-Wing Just remember to turn on your fuel pump before switching tanks, before landing, and check that fuel pressure

September 9th, 2004, 02:44	#9
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,257	Re: High-Wing TO Low-Wing [ QUOTE ] Just remember to turn on your fuel pump before switching tanks, before landing, and check that fuel pressure [/ QUOTE ] And most importantly before takeoff. Rule of thumb I use on tanks with no 'both' setting. Right tank from top to bottom of the hour, left tank bottom of the hour to top. Look at an analog watch, and you'll see what I mean. If it's a digital, well you're on your own. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

September 9th, 2004, 08:29	#10
MidlifeFlyer Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 2,918	Re: High-Wing TO Low-Wing I'll echo most of the other comments. The two primary issues when transitioning from a CE-172 to a PA-28 are the view during landing and fuel management. The PA-28 series tend to land flatter than the equivalent Cessna. Depending on seat position, for most of us the proper touchdown position is with the nose covering the end of the runway. In a Piper, you will still be able to see the runway in front of you. Hint for all transitions to new tricycle airplanes: notice the position of the nose when the mains first leave the ground on takeoff. That's the view you want when landing it. The other issue is fuel management. Because of the low fuel tanks, gravity feed no longer cuts it, so you need to use the auxiliary fuel pump for takeoff, landing, when switching tanks, and most maneuvers (like slow flight and steep turns). Every time you flip that fuel pump switch on or off, it should be accompanied by looking at the fuel flow gauge to confirm everything is working properly. And, of course, you'll have to switch tanks periodically. I also use the analog watch method - big hand on the watch points to the tank in use.

September 9th, 2004, 10:06	#11
ready2fly Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: DFW Posts: 7,080	Re: High-Wing TO Low-Wing [ QUOTE ] we're lucky to get 500 fpm out of the warrior with a full load. [/ QUOTE ] Ain't that the truth?!?!?! I still love the Pipers over the Cessnas for visibility, but the Warrior is anemic in a climb as compared to a C172. The Arrow, however.... now that's a whole `nuther ball game. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] However, when I'm turning downwind to base/base to final, I prefer the visibility that the low-wing affords me. Just a preference. R2F

September 9th, 2004, 10:49	#12
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,825 Blog Entries: 1	Re: High-Wing TO Low-Wing I'm a 'low wing' guy too, but most of my light recip time is in high wings so it's a little more familiar.

September 9th, 2004, 14:19	#13
Josh Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Santa Cruz, California Posts: 686	Re: High-Wing TO Low-Wing You'll have to get used to seeing more stuff, especially in turns. And get used to actually seeing fuel in the tanks, rather that in a straw. One door is the norm on the PA28 models. Feels more car like inside, and less bathtub like. A 140 doesn't climb all that well with more than 1 or 2 people. 180HP is where the PA28 line starts to do good, but it is all about a PA28-235 [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] You will feel ground effect a little sooner on landing, and it'll want to go up out of it on takeoff quicker. Just a little closer to the ground so that pad of air under there has a little more push. Practice short field and soft field takeoff and landing techniques as much as you can right away, and that'll let you feel the main difference. And when flying those in the pattern, don't forget you can always see where the runway is! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

September 9th, 2004, 18:36	#14
Windchill Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Mid-Atlantic, KMRB Posts: 1,925	Re: High-Wing TO Low-Wing Okay, let's see if I recapped correctly: 1) I will be able to see more/better--particularly landing and turning 2) There is no "both" option for selecting fuel tanks 3) I need to use the fuel pump before taking off (how about engine starting, what's feeding the engine), when switching tanks in cruise (so you switch tanks, turn it on, verify flow, then turn it off?), and before landing Another question: how do you troubleshoot if the pump seems to be inop? Open tank and bank to feed fuel to the engine?

September 9th, 2004, 19:02	#15
USMCmech Old Skool Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas TX Posts: 1,557	Re: High-Wing TO Low-Wing All airplanes have an engine driven fuel pump. Low wing airplanes must also have an electricaly driven boost or auxiluary pump. High wing aircraft use graviety feed for a backup. You should see a spike in fuel pressure when you turn on the boost pump.

September 9th, 2004, 20:20	#16
CaptainChris87 Old Skool Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,754	Re: High-Wing TO Low-Wing I like high wings because you get a better view, but it feels weird landing in a cessna though, I like low wing because it feels like a"real" airplane, and it feels much more right when landing. I've flown a Grummen T-cat and im currently working on the C 172sp, switching to the 152. But hey as long as its got wings [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

September 9th, 2004, 21:43	#17
Josh Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Santa Cruz, California Posts: 686	Re: High-Wing TO Low-Wing [ QUOTE ] I like high wings because you get a better view [/ QUOTE ] Better view of what? The underside of the wing? You like looking down at the gear or something? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/spin2.gif[/img] Don't need a ladder to preflight a small low wing.

September 9th, 2004, 22:11	#18
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,403	Re: High-Wing TO Low-Wing [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I like high wings because you get a better view [/ QUOTE ] Better view of what? The underside of the wing? You like looking down at the gear or something? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/spin2.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]Funny you mention that...this week, with each 152 flight (no wheel pants), I've had a strange fixation on the wheels during touchdown!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

September 10th, 2004, 00:42	#19
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,257	Re: High-Wing TO Low-Wing [ QUOTE ] 3) I need to use the fuel pump before taking off (how about engine starting, what's feeding the engine), when switching tanks in cruise (so you switch tanks, turn it on, verify flow, then turn it off?), and before landing [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, you'll need that pump on for starting. It's how you prime the engine. I'd turn the fuel pump on BEFORE switching tanks, other than that, you've got it.

September 10th, 2004, 03:46	#20
Josh Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Santa Cruz, California Posts: 686	Re: High-Wing TO Low-Wing Now Lloyd, you're not supposed to land that way. Puts flat spots in the tires [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Look out the front window doesn't mean the one in front of you, it is supposed to be the one between you and the prop [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

September 10th, 2004, 03:49	#21
Josh Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Santa Cruz, California Posts: 686	Re: High-Wing TO Low-Wing Fun to watch students try and start without the electric pump on. If engine is cold, it just takes a few extra cranks. But if you prime, things work fine. On a warm engine, electric pump isn't needed on an carb based low wing I've flown. Somehow, just about when you think students are actually checking what they do against a checklist, then they forget to use that electric pump. So I've found they just help a little, but are not totally necessary for starting.

September 10th, 2004, 16:01	#22
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,403	Re: High-Wing TO Low-Wing [ QUOTE ] Now Lloyd, you're not supposed to land that way. Puts flat spots in the tires [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Look out the front window doesn't mean the one in front of you, it is supposed to be the one between you and the prop [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Ahhh, so, that's the trick!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] When I fly with a student that's getting close to checkride time, or an advanced student, it's sooo easy to get distracted by things like birds and trucks.... I feel like Homer Simpson sometimes! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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