United adds another layer to cockpit security

pilot602 · September 2nd, 2004, 16:48

[ QUOTE ]
WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- United Airlines plans to install steel cable barriers on its planes to block access from the passenger cabin to the flight deck when the cockpit door is open, government and airline officials said Wednesday.

It is the first voluntary move by a major U.S. carrier to take structural steps to restrict cockpit access beyond a post September 11 requirement by the government for airlines to install stronger cockpit doors.

Bankrupt United, the No. 2 airline, lost two planes in the 2001 hijack attacks.

Jeff Green, a United spokesman, said the secondary barrier resembles a fence that blocks the forward crew corridor from the passenger cabin. It can be locked into place when pilots leave the cockpit to use the restroom or receive meals.

The airline has been using wheeled beverage carts to block the cockpit entrance while the door is open.

"That was a short-term solution. The cart is not secured," Green said.

While its use is more likely on longer flights, the airline plans to install the barrier on all 500 of its planes. United tested the device on its Boeing 757 aircraft.

Green would not say how much the change will cost the company but said the project has been in the works for some time.

The Federal Aviation Administration recently approved the modification. U.S. transportation security officials have no authority over its installation or use but said they were aware of United's plans.

[/ QUOTE ]

flyover · September 2nd, 2004, 17:03

This is very good.

danielsexton · September 2nd, 2004, 17:24

Lets see...

Yesterday: "United to lay off 6,000 more employee's"

Today: "United to spend millions of second layer of cockpit door protection, eventhough only a small threat of another cockpit intrusion"

Kingairer · September 2nd, 2004, 17:40

[ QUOTE ]
Lets see...

Yesterday: "United to lay off 6,000 more employee's"

Today: "United to spend millions of second layer of cockpit door protection, eventhough only a small threat of another cockpit intrusion"

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets not fault them for being pro-active.

flyover · September 2nd, 2004, 17:47

[ QUOTE ]
Lets see...

Yesterday: "United to lay off 6,000 more employee's"

Today: "United to spend millions of second layer of cockpit door protection, eventhough only a small threat of another cockpit intrusion"

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess having two of your airplanes used as missles to murder thousands of people clouds your judgment.

It should have been part of the secure cockpit door to start with. I can tell you that it is impossible to have a secure cockpit without a way for secure egress by the crew in flight.

tonyw · September 2nd, 2004, 18:17

Proactive is fine, but aren't we fighting the last war?

Me thinks that al Qaeda isn't going to send five guys to try to take over a plane again. Me thinks that they're looking for other ways to hit us that are far less difficult than a September 11 repeat.

I hope they're that dumb. But I doubt it.

danielsexton · September 2nd, 2004, 18:31

[ QUOTE ]
Proactive is fine, but aren't we fighting the last war?

Me thinks that al Qaeda isn't going to send five guys to try to take over a plane again. Me thinks that they're looking for other ways to hit us that are far less difficult than a September 11 repeat.

I hope they're that dumb. But I doubt it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tony, this is something you and I can agree upon. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

=================
This is what gets me:

[ QUOTE ]
Forbes Business News Bulletin
United To Cut More Jobs In Cost-Saving Move
Tara Murphy, 09.01.04, 5:15 PM ET

NEW YORK - In the headlines this afternoon, United Airlines says more job cuts lie ahead for the firm, as it tries to cut costs and emerge from Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.

The airline's comments come after a media report said the airline would cut 6,000 employees, or 10% of its workforce. According to a Financial Times report, Chief Executive Glenn Tilton will submit the new restructuring plan to its board later this month. United (otc: UALAQ - news - people ) would not confirm or deny the number of jobs that are on the block, and says <font color="red">[b] it hasn't finalized plans to achieve its targeted $625 million in cost savings.[b]</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

==========

Dear Mr. United CEO:

You will not reach $625 million in savings if you don't stop spending money, and no it isn't possible to squeeze all $625 million out of those greedy, over paid, glorified flying bus drivers, who think they deserve to make a living wage. While this second layer of cockpit door security could possibly an excellent addition to your planes, it is not a mandated or emergency "must have" feature, especially since it is highly unlikely terrorist will attempt a September 11th style attack again, after all we have TSA to protect us now.

If you don't return United to solvency SOON there will be no airline left to fly those planes, maybe you should focus your efforts in that direction.

Sincerely,
Daniel Sexton

cc: Mr. United CFO

chrisesp · September 2nd, 2004, 19:27

Ok got a question for you, suppose the terrorists are talking to the flight attendant when the co-pilot opens the door, they hold the door open long enough to get all their terrorist friends in, then lock themselves into the cockpit, how is anybody going to get into the cockpit to stop them? It's basically over! This is so stupid. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] I think putting all these locks on the cockpit doors would actually help a terrorist if he/she (Must be pollitcally correct) wants to get into, and lock themselves in the cockpit!

Kristie · September 2nd, 2004, 20:57

[ QUOTE ]

==========

Dear Mr. United CEO:

You will not reach $625 million in savings if you don't stop spending money, and no it isn't possible to squeeze all $625 million out of those greedy, over paid, glorified flying bus drivers, who think they deserve to make a living wage. While this second layer of cockpit door security could possibly an excellent addition to your planes, it is not a mandated or emergency "must have" feature, especially since it is highly unlikely terrorist will attempt a September 11th style attack again, after all we have TSA to protect us now.

If you don't return United to solvency SOON there will be no airline left to fly those planes, maybe you should focus your efforts in that direction.

Sincerely,
Daniel Sexton

cc: Mr. United CFO

[/ QUOTE ] SCHWEET and to the point!!

MQAAord · September 2nd, 2004, 20:58

[ QUOTE ]
suppose the terrorists are talking to the flight attendant when the co-pilot opens the door,

[/ QUOTE ]

The F/As know when the guys are going to come out, they will not be engaging in idle chit-chat with pax at that time.

Doug Taylor · September 2nd, 2004, 21:10

Actually we have a procedure for when we need to come out.

I won't elucidate, but we've got that base covered.

Cutlass1287 · September 2nd, 2004, 21:58

[ QUOTE ]
Proactive is fine, but aren't we fighting the last war?

Me thinks that al Qaeda isn't going to send five guys to try to take over a plane again. Me thinks that they're looking for other ways to hit us that are far less difficult than a September 11 repeat.

I hope they're that dumb. But I doubt it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Methinks that they know what youthinks.

tonyw · September 2nd, 2004, 23:06

So, then you expect them to use the September 11 model again?

kellwolf · September 2nd, 2004, 23:15

It's all about passenger perception. If they install something that makes their a/c look (or actually be) safer, then passengers (those that are afraid) will be more likely to fly that airline. Also, there may be some gov't kick backs for being pro-active with the securitay.

Cutlass1287 · September 2nd, 2004, 23:31

It seems like this will allow the pilots to actually get up and take a crap without worrying about starting a big stink.

flyover · September 3rd, 2004, 07:59

[ QUOTE ]
Proactive is fine, but aren't we fighting the last war?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, still fighting this one.

[ QUOTE ]
Me thinks that al Qaeda isn't going to send five guys to try to take over a plane again. Me thinks that they're looking for other ways to hit us that are far less difficult than a September 11 repeat.

I hope they're that dumb. But I doubt it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is that the current set up does not result in secure cockpits. So it basically gets down to: do you secure the cockpits or don't you? I don't think most terrorist experts think this war is over by a long shot. The addition that UAL is putting on puts the finishing touches on securing the cockpit. What could possibly be wrong with that?

And, by the way, Islamic fundamentalists in Russia just simultaneously took two airliners down in a coordinated attack. Seems like aviation is still in their playbook.

I guess if the point is that UAL should put this money to "saving jobs" then I have to ask, is it OK if they cut corners in other safety areas? After all there are many areas of safety where there is probably enough redundancy to cut back. Remember the hysteria on this forum when the history channel revealed that airlines develop their own mainteance methods to (oh my god) save money?

tonyw · September 3rd, 2004, 10:06

[ QUOTE ]
And, by the way, Islamic fundamentalists in Russia just simultaneously took two airliners down in a coordinated attack. Seems like aviation is still in their playbook.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like they blew them up with a bomb. All the cockpit protection measures in the world ain't gonna do jack to stop that.

Cockpit security is all well and good but do you really think they're going to try to storm the cockpit again, knowing that the passengers will fight them every inch of the way?

flyover · September 3rd, 2004, 10:17

[ QUOTE ]
Cockpit security is all well and good

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it if is "well and good" then taking the final, logical step to secure the cockpit shouldn't be a controversial issue.

[ QUOTE ]
but do you really think they're going to try to storm the cockpit again, knowing that the passengers will fight them every inch of the way?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know and neither do you. But I do know that airline security people meet and coordinate with government security people on a continuous basis. They are privy to all the intelligence and threat analysis that's going on (quite different I'm sure from what the public pronouncements are). So after all that if they decide a secure cockpit is still important, I'm in no position to argue with them. I don't ascribe nearly the level of "logical thought process" to these fanatical murderers as you do. But I do think, after the catastrophic losses of 9/11 that a secure cockpit is very logical.

tonyw · September 3rd, 2004, 10:25

[ QUOTE ]
I don't ascribe nearly the level of "logical thought process" to these fanatical murderers as you do. But I do think, after the catastrophic losses of 9/11 that a secure cockpit is very logical.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it is. But at what cost? We could have a cockpit door built like the vaults at Fort Knox, but is it worth it?

As for the fanatical murders and using logic, if they were stupid, they'd never have pulled off September 11, and we'd have their heads on a silver platter by now. They're fanatics, they're murderers, and unfortunately for us, they are smart.

The last thing is what makes them so dangerous.

flyover · September 3rd, 2004, 10:35

[ QUOTE ]
and we'd have their heads on a silver platter by now.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are dead, along with thousands of their compatriots.

Their ultimate goal is a world wide catastrophe followed by an Islamic theocracy/enslavement. Particuarly pleasant for any women in the crowd. Maybe psychotic is a better word than stupid.

pilot602 · September 3rd, 2004, 12:12

[ QUOTE ]
And, by the way, Islamic fundamentalists in Russia just simultaneously took two airliners down in a coordinated attack. Seems like aviation is still in their playbook.

[/ QUOTE ]

But they didn't do it from the cockpit ...

[ QUOTE ]
Remember the hysteria on this forum when the history channel revealed that airlines develop their own mainteance methods to (oh my god) save money?

[/ QUOTE ]

Been here three years and this doesn't ring a bell (which doesn't mean a lot as I have a hard time remembering what I did yesterday [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]) ... could you post a link to the thread?

[ QUOTE ]
They are dead, along with thousands of their compatriots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah? Where's Osama?

Minnesota_Flyer · September 3rd, 2004, 12:16

[ QUOTE ]
I don't ascribe nearly the level of "logical thought process" to these fanatical murderers as you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haven't been reading your SunTzu, have you? Never, never, never, never, never, never, never, NEVER underestimate your enemy. They may be fanatical, but they aren't stupid. They are clever and resourceful, more so then we seem to be. And they don't have a history of making the same attack twice.

I don't have any problem with taking reasonable steps to ensure that 9/11 doesn't happen again, but gov't and industry seem to be putting way too much emphasis on preventing another 9/11 (and giving the people a false sense of security) and too little emphasis on stopping whatever the terrorists are going to do next. Are we even remotely prepared for what just happened in Russia? How about a wave of individual suicide bombers a la Israel? I don't think so.

My $0.02.

MF

pilot602 · September 3rd, 2004, 12:26

[ QUOTE ]
but gov't and industry seem to be putting way too much emphasis on preventing another 9/11 (and giving the people a false sense of security) and too little emphasis on stopping whatever the terrorists are going to do next.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactyle ... and window dressing. case in point ... one of the local airports here in town has just finished putting up a chain link fence with barbed wire on the top aroundthe base of the tower and small parking lot. What in the hell is that going to stop? A motorcycly going fast enough would get through that like a knife through butter and imagine if they happened to use something larger like a, maybe, a car? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

I'm not slamming UAL for beefing up cockpit security, in fact I think it's great and am far more in favor of this than guns in the cockpit, but in terms of overall security we've done squat. Trains still oeprate with very little oversight, the highway system is completely unsecure, shipping containers enter and exit the country almost completely unmolested and there's more security at the local movie theater than there is along our southern (or northern, for that matter) border.

Instead of talking about how we kicked the $h*t out of Iraq and Saddam maybe we should be pooring our money into real security ...

Doug Taylor · September 3rd, 2004, 12:30

[ QUOTE ]
Remember the hysteria on this forum when the history channel revealed that airlines develop their own mainteance methods to (oh my god) save money?

[/ QUOTE ]

Heck, I'll see Pilot602's three years and raise it to eight.

???? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] ????

I think the only mention of saving money in the context of airline maintenance was made in this post: American Airlines Flight 191 and I think MikeD did a really good job of explaining the surrounding context. I certainly wouldn't call that thread a melee.

He's a disciple at the shrine of Bill Waldock, after all! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

flyover · September 3rd, 2004, 12:47

[ QUOTE ]
Haven't been reading your SunTzu, have you? Never, never, never, never, never, never, never, NEVER underestimate your enemy. They may be fanatical, but they aren't stupid. They are clever and resourceful, more so then we seem to be. And they don't have a history of making the same attack twice.

IMy $0.02.

MF

[/ QUOTE ]

All good points.

Clever is the better word for them. I am encouraged by the fact that historically movements like this have always been at least as self-destructive as other-destructive. This group seems to be that in spades. The key is being clever enough to help them self-destruct while avoiding as much other-destruction as possible.

As to whether they will use the same methods again. I tend to doubt it. That's one of the reasons I have been against the FAM program as too little bang for the buck. My thought was to invest in making the cockpit secure and move on. The mod that UAL is making completes securing the cockpit. Makes sense to me.

September 2nd, 2004, 16:48	#1
pilot602 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: who haa Posts: 3,750	United adds another layer to cockpit security [ QUOTE ] WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- United Airlines plans to install steel cable barriers on its planes to block access from the passenger cabin to the flight deck when the cockpit door is open, government and airline officials said Wednesday. It is the first voluntary move by a major U.S. carrier to take structural steps to restrict cockpit access beyond a post September 11 requirement by the government for airlines to install stronger cockpit doors. Bankrupt United, the No. 2 airline, lost two planes in the 2001 hijack attacks. Jeff Green, a United spokesman, said the secondary barrier resembles a fence that blocks the forward crew corridor from the passenger cabin. It can be locked into place when pilots leave the cockpit to use the restroom or receive meals. The airline has been using wheeled beverage carts to block the cockpit entrance while the door is open. "That was a short-term solution. The cart is not secured," Green said. While its use is more likely on longer flights, the airline plans to install the barrier on all 500 of its planes. United tested the device on its Boeing 757 aircraft. Green would not say how much the change will cost the company but said the project has been in the works for some time. The Federal Aviation Administration recently approved the modification. U.S. transportation security officials have no authority over its installation or use but said they were aware of United's plans. [/ QUOTE ]

September 2nd, 2004, 17:03	#2
flyover Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,389	Re: United adds another layer to cockpit security This is very good.

September 2nd, 2004, 17:24	#3
danielsexton Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: CSG Posts: 186	Re: United adds another layer to cockpit security Lets see... Yesterday: "United to lay off 6,000 more employee's" Today: "United to spend millions of second layer of cockpit door protection, eventhough only a small threat of another cockpit intrusion"

September 2nd, 2004, 17:40	#4
Kingairer Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Nomadic...World Wide Boobie Bungalow Bouncer Posts: 3,171	Re: United adds another layer to cockpit security [ QUOTE ] Lets see... Yesterday: "United to lay off 6,000 more employee's" Today: "United to spend millions of second layer of cockpit door protection, eventhough only a small threat of another cockpit intrusion" [/ QUOTE ] Lets not fault them for being pro-active.

September 2nd, 2004, 17:47	#5
flyover Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,389	Re: United adds another layer to cockpit security [ QUOTE ] Lets see... Yesterday: "United to lay off 6,000 more employee's" Today: "United to spend millions of second layer of cockpit door protection, eventhough only a small threat of another cockpit intrusion" [/ QUOTE ] I guess having two of your airplanes used as missles to murder thousands of people clouds your judgment. It should have been part of the secure cockpit door to start with. I can tell you that it is impossible to have a secure cockpit without a way for secure egress by the crew in flight.

September 2nd, 2004, 18:17	#6
tonyw Old Skool Join Date: May 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 15,466	Re: United adds another layer to cockpit security Proactive is fine, but aren't we fighting the last war? Me thinks that al Qaeda isn't going to send five guys to try to take over a plane again. Me thinks that they're looking for other ways to hit us that are far less difficult than a September 11 repeat. I hope they're that dumb. But I doubt it.

September 2nd, 2004, 18:31	#7
danielsexton Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: CSG Posts: 186	Re: United adds another layer to cockpit security [ QUOTE ] Proactive is fine, but aren't we fighting the last war? Me thinks that al Qaeda isn't going to send five guys to try to take over a plane again. Me thinks that they're looking for other ways to hit us that are far less difficult than a September 11 repeat. I hope they're that dumb. But I doubt it. [/ QUOTE ] Tony, this is something you and I can agree upon. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ================= This is what gets me: [ QUOTE ] Forbes Business News Bulletin United To Cut More Jobs In Cost-Saving Move Tara Murphy, 09.01.04, 5:15 PM ET NEW YORK - In the headlines this afternoon, United Airlines says more job cuts lie ahead for the firm, as it tries to cut costs and emerge from Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. The airline's comments come after a media report said the airline would cut 6,000 employees, or 10% of its workforce. According to a Financial Times report, Chief Executive Glenn Tilton will submit the new restructuring plan to its board later this month. United (otc: UALAQ - news - people ) would not confirm or deny the number of jobs that are on the block, and says <font color="red">[b] it hasn't finalized plans to achieve its targeted $625 million in cost savings.[b]</font> [/ QUOTE ] ========== Dear Mr. United CEO: You will not reach $625 million in savings if you don't stop spending money, and no it isn't possible to squeeze all $625 million out of those greedy, over paid, glorified flying bus drivers, who think they deserve to make a living wage. While this second layer of cockpit door security could possibly an excellent addition to your planes, it is not a mandated or emergency "must have" feature, especially since it is highly unlikely terrorist will attempt a September 11th style attack again, after all we have TSA to protect us now. If you don't return United to solvency SOON there will be no airline left to fly those planes, maybe you should focus your efforts in that direction. Sincerely, Daniel Sexton cc: Mr. United CFO

September 2nd, 2004, 19:27	#8
chrisesp Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 394	Re: United adds another layer to cockpit security Ok got a question for you, suppose the terrorists are talking to the flight attendant when the co-pilot opens the door, they hold the door open long enough to get all their terrorist friends in, then lock themselves into the cockpit, how is anybody going to get into the cockpit to stop them? It's basically over! This is so stupid. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] I think putting all these locks on the cockpit doors would actually help a terrorist if he/she (Must be pollitcally correct) wants to get into, and lock themselves in the cockpit!

September 2nd, 2004, 20:57	#9
Kristie Big Chief's Woman Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Scottsdale, Arizona Posts: 18,213 Blog Entries: 3	Re: United adds another layer to cockpit security [ QUOTE ] ========== Dear Mr. United CEO: You will not reach $625 million in savings if you don't stop spending money, and no it isn't possible to squeeze all $625 million out of those greedy, over paid, glorified flying bus drivers, who think they deserve to make a living wage. While this second layer of cockpit door security could possibly an excellent addition to your planes, it is not a mandated or emergency "must have" feature, especially since it is highly unlikely terrorist will attempt a September 11th style attack again, after all we have TSA to protect us now. If you don't return United to solvency SOON there will be no airline left to fly those planes, maybe you should focus your efforts in that direction. Sincerely, Daniel Sexton cc: Mr. United CFO [/ QUOTE ] SCHWEET and to the point!!

September 2nd, 2004, 20:58	#10
MQAAord Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The Looney Bin Posts: 9,177	Re: United adds another layer to cockpit security [ QUOTE ] suppose the terrorists are talking to the flight attendant when the co-pilot opens the door, [/ QUOTE ] The F/As know when the guys are going to come out, they will not be engaging in idle chit-chat with pax at that time.

September 2nd, 2004, 21:10	#11
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 40,589 Blog Entries: 1	Re: United adds another layer to cockpit security Actually we have a procedure for when we need to come out. I won't elucidate, but we've got that base covered.

September 2nd, 2004, 21:58	#12
Cutlass1287 Junior Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 114	Re: United adds another layer to cockpit security [ QUOTE ] Proactive is fine, but aren't we fighting the last war? Me thinks that al Qaeda isn't going to send five guys to try to take over a plane again. Me thinks that they're looking for other ways to hit us that are far less difficult than a September 11 repeat. I hope they're that dumb. But I doubt it. [/ QUOTE ] Methinks that they know what youthinks.

September 2nd, 2004, 23:06	#13
tonyw Old Skool Join Date: May 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 15,466	Re: United adds another layer to cockpit security So, then you expect them to use the September 11 model again?

September 2nd, 2004, 23:15	#14
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,687	Re: United adds another layer to cockpit security It's all about passenger perception. If they install something that makes their a/c look (or actually be) safer, then passengers (those that are afraid) will be more likely to fly that airline. Also, there may be some gov't kick backs for being pro-active with the securitay.

September 2nd, 2004, 23:31	#15
Cutlass1287 Junior Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 114	Re: United adds another layer to cockpit security It seems like this will allow the pilots to actually get up and take a crap without worrying about starting a big stink.

September 3rd, 2004, 07:59	#16
flyover Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,389	Re: United adds another layer to cockpit security [ QUOTE ] Proactive is fine, but aren't we fighting the last war? [/ QUOTE ] Nope, still fighting this one. [ QUOTE ] Me thinks that al Qaeda isn't going to send five guys to try to take over a plane again. Me thinks that they're looking for other ways to hit us that are far less difficult than a September 11 repeat. I hope they're that dumb. But I doubt it. [/ QUOTE ] The point is that the current set up does not result in secure cockpits. So it basically gets down to: do you secure the cockpits or don't you? I don't think most terrorist experts think this war is over by a long shot. The addition that UAL is putting on puts the finishing touches on securing the cockpit. What could possibly be wrong with that? And, by the way, Islamic fundamentalists in Russia just simultaneously took two airliners down in a coordinated attack. Seems like aviation is still in their playbook. I guess if the point is that UAL should put this money to "saving jobs" then I have to ask, is it OK if they cut corners in other safety areas? After all there are many areas of safety where there is probably enough redundancy to cut back. Remember the hysteria on this forum when the history channel revealed that airlines develop their own mainteance methods to (oh my god) save money?

September 3rd, 2004, 10:06	#17
tonyw Old Skool Join Date: May 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 15,466	Re: United adds another layer to cockpit security [ QUOTE ] And, by the way, Islamic fundamentalists in Russia just simultaneously took two airliners down in a coordinated attack. Seems like aviation is still in their playbook. [/ QUOTE ] Looks like they blew them up with a bomb. All the cockpit protection measures in the world ain't gonna do jack to stop that. Cockpit security is all well and good but do you really think they're going to try to storm the cockpit again, knowing that the passengers will fight them every inch of the way?

September 3rd, 2004, 10:17	#18
flyover Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,389	Re: United adds another layer to cockpit security [ QUOTE ] Cockpit security is all well and good [/ QUOTE ] Well it if is "well and good" then taking the final, logical step to secure the cockpit shouldn't be a controversial issue. [ QUOTE ] but do you really think they're going to try to storm the cockpit again, knowing that the passengers will fight them every inch of the way? [/ QUOTE ] I don't know and neither do you. But I do know that airline security people meet and coordinate with government security people on a continuous basis. They are privy to all the intelligence and threat analysis that's going on (quite different I'm sure from what the public pronouncements are). So after all that if they decide a secure cockpit is still important, I'm in no position to argue with them. I don't ascribe nearly the level of "logical thought process" to these fanatical murderers as you do. But I do think, after the catastrophic losses of 9/11 that a secure cockpit is very logical.

September 3rd, 2004, 10:25	#19
tonyw Old Skool Join Date: May 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 15,466	Re: United adds another layer to cockpit security [ QUOTE ] I don't ascribe nearly the level of "logical thought process" to these fanatical murderers as you do. But I do think, after the catastrophic losses of 9/11 that a secure cockpit is very logical. [/ QUOTE ] Of course it is. But at what cost? We could have a cockpit door built like the vaults at Fort Knox, but is it worth it? As for the fanatical murders and using logic, if they were stupid, they'd never have pulled off September 11, and we'd have their heads on a silver platter by now. They're fanatics, they're murderers, and unfortunately for us, they are smart. The last thing is what makes them so dangerous.

September 3rd, 2004, 10:35	#20
flyover Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,389	Re: United adds another layer to cockpit security [ QUOTE ] and we'd have their heads on a silver platter by now. [/ QUOTE ] They are dead, along with thousands of their compatriots. Their ultimate goal is a world wide catastrophe followed by an Islamic theocracy/enslavement. Particuarly pleasant for any women in the crowd. Maybe psychotic is a better word than stupid.

September 3rd, 2004, 12:12	#21
pilot602 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: who haa Posts: 3,750	Re: United adds another layer to cockpit security [ QUOTE ] And, by the way, Islamic fundamentalists in Russia just simultaneously took two airliners down in a coordinated attack. Seems like aviation is still in their playbook. [/ QUOTE ] But they didn't do it from the cockpit ... [ QUOTE ] Remember the hysteria on this forum when the history channel revealed that airlines develop their own mainteance methods to (oh my god) save money? [/ QUOTE ] Been here three years and this doesn't ring a bell (which doesn't mean a lot as I have a hard time remembering what I did yesterday [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]) ... could you post a link to the thread? [ QUOTE ] They are dead, along with thousands of their compatriots. [/ QUOTE ] Oh yeah? Where's Osama?

September 3rd, 2004, 12:16	#22
Minnesota_Flyer Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: the Twin Cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul Posts: 1,896	Re: United adds another layer to cockpit security [ QUOTE ] I don't ascribe nearly the level of "logical thought process" to these fanatical murderers as you do. [/ QUOTE ] Haven't been reading your SunTzu, have you? Never, never, never, never, never, never, never, NEVER underestimate your enemy. They may be fanatical, but they aren't stupid. They are clever and resourceful, more so then we seem to be. And they don't have a history of making the same attack twice. I don't have any problem with taking reasonable steps to ensure that 9/11 doesn't happen again, but gov't and industry seem to be putting way too much emphasis on preventing another 9/11 (and giving the people a false sense of security) and too little emphasis on stopping whatever the terrorists are going to do next. Are we even remotely prepared for what just happened in Russia? How about a wave of individual suicide bombers a la Israel? I don't think so. My $0.02. MF

September 3rd, 2004, 12:26	#23
pilot602 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: who haa Posts: 3,750	Re: United adds another layer to cockpit security [ QUOTE ] but gov't and industry seem to be putting way too much emphasis on preventing another 9/11 (and giving the people a false sense of security) and too little emphasis on stopping whatever the terrorists are going to do next. [/ QUOTE ] Exactyle ... and window dressing. case in point ... one of the local airports here in town has just finished putting up a chain link fence with barbed wire on the top aroundthe base of the tower and small parking lot. What in the hell is that going to stop? A motorcycly going fast enough would get through that like a knife through butter and imagine if they happened to use something larger like a, maybe, a car? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] I'm not slamming UAL for beefing up cockpit security, in fact I think it's great and am far more in favor of this than guns in the cockpit, but in terms of overall security we've done squat. Trains still oeprate with very little oversight, the highway system is completely unsecure, shipping containers enter and exit the country almost completely unmolested and there's more security at the local movie theater than there is along our southern (or northern, for that matter) border. Instead of talking about how we kicked the $h*t out of Iraq and Saddam maybe we should be pooring our money into real security ...

September 3rd, 2004, 12:30	#24
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 40,589 Blog Entries: 1	Re: United adds another layer to cockpit security [ QUOTE ] Remember the hysteria on this forum when the history channel revealed that airlines develop their own mainteance methods to (oh my god) save money? [/ QUOTE ] Heck, I'll see Pilot602's three years and raise it to eight. ???? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] ???? I think the only mention of saving money in the context of airline maintenance was made in this post: American Airlines Flight 191 and I think MikeD did a really good job of explaining the surrounding context. I certainly wouldn't call that thread a melee. He's a disciple at the shrine of Bill Waldock, after all! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

September 3rd, 2004, 12:47	#25
flyover Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,389	Re: United adds another layer to cockpit security [ QUOTE ] Haven't been reading your SunTzu, have you? Never, never, never, never, never, never, never, NEVER underestimate your enemy. They may be fanatical, but they aren't stupid. They are clever and resourceful, more so then we seem to be. And they don't have a history of making the same attack twice. IMy $0.02. MF [/ QUOTE ] All good points. Clever is the better word for them. I am encouraged by the fact that historically movements like this have always been at least as self-destructive as other-destructive. This group seems to be that in spades. The key is being clever enough to help them self-destruct while avoiding as much other-destruction as possible. As to whether they will use the same methods again. I tend to doubt it. That's one of the reasons I have been against the FAM program as too little bang for the buck. My thought was to invest in making the cockpit secure and move on. The mod that UAL is making completes securing the cockpit. Makes sense to me.

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