What is and what isn't IMC?

[Cutlass1287]

Does anybosdy know where I can find a good definition of IMC? I know that it is commonly considered less than 1K feet and/or less than 3 miles, but what about flight at night over the ocean when you cant see anything? Is that IMC? I am trying to find a definition in the FAR.

[PaulRix]

Night over the ocean is not technically IMC, however for all practical purposes it is (because you have no visual references). Personally I think you have to be mad to fly at night over the ocean without an instrument rating and yet it is perfectly legal to do so.

Take a look here : FAR Part 91.155
http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part91-155-FAR.shtml

[MikeD]

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Personally I think you have to be mad to fly at night over the ocean without an instrument rating and yet it is perfectly legal to do so.

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Angry mad, or Crazy mad? Or both? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[PaulRix]

Pilot would have to be crazy mad. Could make the SAR guys Angry mad........either way, lots of madness. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/insane.gif[/img]

[mtsu_av8er]

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Night over the ocean is not technically IMC, however for all practical purposes it is (because you have no visual references).

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So, what's the definition of IMC??

[Cutlass1287]

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So, what's the definition of IMC??

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Thats what I would like to know. Who says night over the ocean isnt IMC?

[mtsu_av8er]

IMC is anytime the weather is less than VFR (variesm, depending on airspace, time of day, etc).

[SteveC]

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IMC is anytime the weather is less than VFR (variesm, depending on airspace, time of day, etc).

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That's like defining sex as "the lack of abstinence".
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[E_Dawg]

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Does anybosdy know where I can find a good definition of IMC?

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The only definiton of IMC is in far 170... it's basically what Lloyd said.
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but what about flight at night over the ocean when you cant see anything? Is that IMC?

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Nope, it would be VMC (also in far 170). To log 'actual' you need:

-flight by ref to instruments
-instrument flight conditions (not defined in the fars).

So... if you think instrument flight conditions means you can't see anything, go ahead and log actual.

[Cutlass1287]

So how would airlines and the FAA view logging actual when the weather is clear and a million?

[E_Dawg]

There isn't really a varation on actual... it either is, or it's not.

If you'd log an entire night flight actual just because you have the ocean out the left window (but a city out your right)... then you're breaking the regs. If you seriously can't tell whether your in a cloud or not then you can log it. Just use common sense.

Another example is being 10' below a cloud in class E under IFR. You're technically in IMC (weather less than VFR). But you have a horizon so you're not in instrument flight conditions (i.e., you don't need to fly soley by ref to instruments) and you can't log it as actual.

[Cutlass1287]

Cool.....but we still havent come up with a good def. of IMC. FAR 170 does define it as "weather conditions below the minimums prescribed for flight under Visual Flight Rules (VFR)."

But note this: "For purposes of this subpart—"

So how about, IMC is anytime controlled flight with reference to anything outside the cockpit is not possible.

[FalconCapt]

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To log 'actual' you need:

-flight by ref to instruments
-instrument flight conditions (not defined in the fars).

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And I always thought you only needed a nice Bic Pen... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/spin2.gif[/img]

[FalconCapt]

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So how would airlines and the FAA view logging actual when the weather is clear and a million?

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The question should be: "So how would airlines and the FAA know that I was logging actual when the weather was clear and a million?"

The answer: They wouldn't... 99% of what is logged in a logbook is based on the "Honor System"... Pretty much no one could or is going to look back to flights years earlier and try to cross reference WX conditions and such...

Simply isn't going to happen...

Log what you want to log, you just have to live with yourself...

[Cutlass1287]

So do you log actual time when you cant see in any direction as actual?

[FalconCapt]

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So do you log actual time when you cant see in any direction as actual?

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My logbook is nearly 2 years behind... Honestly, I'm not even 100% sure which box it is in...

A little off topic but I would like to share something a pilot in my local airport told me. Some pilots here sometimes crash in the ocean because at night over the ocean they think that the ship lights are stars and become disoriented.

[AngelFuree]

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...share something a pilot in my local pilot told me...

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Huh? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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...share something a pilot in my local pilot told me...

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Huh? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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Sorry, typed too fast. Error fixed.

[AngelFuree]

I know Brian, I'm sorry. I was just joking around with you. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Yeah I know, I just typed too fast and had a typo. Thanks for letting me know.

[Cutlass1287]

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So do you log actual time when you cant see in any direction as actual?

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Boy, did that come out the wrong way! It should have read:


So do you log time when you cant see in any direction as actual?

[tonyw]

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So how would airlines and the FAA view logging actual when the weather is clear and a million?

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You probably won't get caught. I mean, after all, think about it. Would they know that it was severe clear on a night that you logged actual?

Highly unlikely, to say the least.

But do you want to do that? You're only cheating yourself!

[Raskolnikov]

I would think that if you live in Fl, and log most of your time in Fl, someone would take notice if you logged "actual" several times a week regularly. IMC is Instrument Meteorological Conditions, is it not? There's nothing about the ocean that's Meteorological. (unless you consider that is supplies the atmosphere with a lot of the H2O that causes the weather) However, you would be in instrument condidions, would you not? So it should be IC, not IMC. Maybe there should be a new column in the log book??????

So airlines flying over the ocean at night, is that logged IMC? Prob not.

[RiddlePilot]

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So how about, IMC is anytime controlled flight with reference to anything outside the cockpit is not possible.

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Not quite. As mtsu already said, the definition of IMC is weather conditions less than those prescribed for VFR.

You're talking about logging actual, which really just comes down to common sense. If you have to rely on your flight instruments to keep the rolley side down, then log actual. And yes, this DOES include night VMC if you can't see; i.e. over the ocean, desert, etc.