What is and what isn't IMC? - Page 2

Cutlass1287 · August 29th, 2004, 12:50

I am not thinking about getting "caught." Let me rephrase this: You walk into your interview and tell them "This 20 hours of acutal was all flown in CAVU conditions at night over the ocean." What would they say to that?

BobDDuck · August 29th, 2004, 12:52

Take it a step further then... When you do log actual how much do you log? If you fly through one cloud and you are in "actual" (whatever we are going to define it as) for about 3 seconds, is that .1 in the logbook? Or do you just ignore it unless you are in solid IMC for a good amount of time (more then 6 min)? I would think that it has to do with how much time you have and how much you need the numbers in your log book (ie regional job). I know for me, if I hit a few clouds I won't log the actual unless I am in them for a) more then a minute or two or b) unless I am in and out of them for a fair amount of time. Just my .02.

Ethan

eodfe · August 29th, 2004, 13:33

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally I think you have to be mad to fly at night over the ocean without an instrument rating and yet it is perfectly legal to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Angry mad, or Crazy mad? Or both? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Your best Bill Murray voice; "Don't fly angry!"

kellwolf · August 29th, 2004, 14:52

[ QUOTE ]
I would think that if you live in Fl, and log most of your time in Fl, someone would take notice if you logged "actual" several times a week regularly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Never flown in FL during the summer have ya? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I racked up on the actual time while time building for me commercial. Those daily afternoon t-storms combined with covective activity all day long add up to a pretty decent amount of clouds. Now if you lived in AZ and had a lot of actual......

RiddlePilot · August 29th, 2004, 17:11

[ QUOTE ]
Now if you lived in AZ and had a lot of actual......

[/ QUOTE ]

Not so fast. Everyone assumes that AZ has very little in the way of actual. You'd really be surprised at what you can dig up around here. Take off from PRC and fly directly west on a moonless night. See anything? Nope! Actual.

[ QUOTE ]
Take it a step further then... When you do log actual how much do you log? If you fly through one cloud and you are in "actual" (whatever we are going to define it as) for about 3 seconds, is that .1 in the logbook?

[/ QUOTE ]

I cannot confirm nor deny that comment... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

aloft · August 29th, 2004, 17:25

[ QUOTE ]
Not so fast. Everyone assumes that AZ has very little in the way of actual. You'd really be surprised at what you can dig up around here. Take off from PRC and fly directly west on a moonless night. See anything? Nope! Actual.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same scenario as the OP P'd, but swapping desert for ocean. Bottom line (IMHO), if there are no outside visual references, you're flying in instrument conditions and you'd better be flying by reference to your instruments, lest ye should pull a JFK Jr. and meet thine untimely demise. I can't think of anyplace in the FARs that says you must be instrument rated to log actual instrument time. You just have to be instrument rated to fly under instrument flight rules.

Your mileage may vary. Widely.

MikeD · August 29th, 2004, 18:48

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not so fast. Everyone assumes that AZ has very little in the way of actual. You'd really be surprised at what you can dig up around here. Take off from PRC and fly directly west on a moonless night. See anything? Nope! Actual.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same scenario as the OP P'd, but swapping desert for ocean. Bottom line (IMHO), if there are no outside visual references, you're flying in instrument conditions and you'd better be flying by reference to your instruments, lest ye should pull a JFK Jr. and meet thine untimely demise. I can't think of anyplace in the FARs that says you must be instrument rated to log actual instrument time. You just have to be instrument rated to fly under instrument flight rules.

Your mileage may vary. Widely.

[/ QUOTE ]

JFK jr was murder/suicide camoflauged as instrument incompetency.......

Cutlass1287 · August 29th, 2004, 19:56

If, in your estimation, total actual time during your flight was less than .1, why bother? If you keep going through clouds, and you estimate you spent about 20 % of your flight in actual, you log .2.

mtsu_av8er · August 29th, 2004, 20:05

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not so fast. Everyone assumes that AZ has very little in the way of actual. You'd really be surprised at what you can dig up around here. Take off from PRC and fly directly west on a moonless night. See anything? Nope! Actual.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same scenario as the OP P'd, but swapping desert for ocean. Bottom line (IMHO), if there are no outside visual references, you're flying in instrument conditions and you'd better be flying by reference to your instruments, lest ye should pull a JFK Jr. and meet thine untimely demise. I can't think of anyplace in the FARs that says you must be instrument rated to log actual instrument time. You just have to be instrument rated to fly under instrument flight rules.

Your mileage may vary. Widely.

[/ QUOTE ]

JFK jr was murder/suicide camoflauged as instrument incompetency.......

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Must have been the republicans after him, huh? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

SteveC · August 29th, 2004, 20:11

[ QUOTE ]
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Must have been the republicans after him, huh? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
No way! Can't have been!

The job wasn't botched. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

MikeD · August 29th, 2004, 22:02

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Must have been the republicans after him, huh? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
No way! Can't have been!

The job wasn't botched. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll have to go back to the conspiracy website and look......I'll get back to you guys. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

FalconCapt · August 29th, 2004, 22:05

[ QUOTE ]
If, in your estimation, totalIf you keep going through clouds, and you estimate you spent about 20 % of your flight in actual, you log .2.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if I do 20% of my 9 1/2 hour flight in the clouds, I can only log .2 actual????? Man, I need to hit the math class again!

Cutlass1287 · August 29th, 2004, 22:08

What I neglected to mention before (perhaps out of hunger), is that I was a assuming a one hour flight. You are certainly a sharp man!

FalconCapt · August 29th, 2004, 22:09

[ QUOTE ]
I was a assuming a one hour flight

[/ QUOTE ]

Never, EVER, assume anything... Cuz we all know what assuming does... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Cutlass1287 · August 29th, 2004, 22:22

Right, the whole Ass U Me thing.... I was really just trying to cover for being a dimwit when I posted that [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

CaptainMatt · August 29th, 2004, 22:25

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was a assuming a one hour flight

[/ QUOTE ]

Never, EVER, assume anything... Cuz we all know what assuming does... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I know what it makes you look like, An Idiot. I have personal experience on this, FalconCapt knows how I looked like an Idiot? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buck.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

mastermags · August 29th, 2004, 22:26

[ QUOTE ]
Take it a step further then... When you do log actual how much do you log? If you fly through one cloud and you are in "actual" (whatever we are going to define it as) for about 3 seconds, is that .1 in the logbook? Or do you just ignore it unless you are in solid IMC for a good amount of time (more then 6 min)? I would think that it has to do with how much time you have and how much you need the numbers in your log book (ie regional job). I know for me, if I hit a few clouds I won't log the actual unless I am in them for a) more then a minute or two or b) unless I am in and out of them for a fair amount of time. Just my .02.

Ethan

[/ QUOTE ]

I like cutlass's method here, about reasonably assuming your percentage of time. If you fly through 1 cloud for 3 seconds, were you really relying on your instruments to control flight. I could control the airplane with my eyes closed for 3 seconds. Most people would see the cloud, say "oooo, im in a cloud", and pop out the other side without even bothering to scan.

The logbook system is an honor system. A lot of stuff will be guestimation, and that's the way its always been. Dont cheat the system, be reasonable, and it wont come back to haunt you. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bandit.gif[/img]

FalconCapt · August 29th, 2004, 22:53

[ QUOTE ]
I could control the airplane with my eyes closed for 3 seconds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have controlled an airplane for FAR more than 3 seconds with my eyes close... When the engine noise goes away, that is when you know you are asleep...

mastermags · August 30th, 2004, 01:14

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I could control the airplane with my eyes closed for 3 seconds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have controlled an airplane for FAR more than 3 seconds with my eyes close... When the engine noise goes away, that is when you know you are asleep...

[/ QUOTE ]

I rely on that falling sensation... however, in the cockpit that takes on a whole new relevance [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img].

FalconCapt · August 30th, 2004, 02:22

[ QUOTE ]
I rely on that falling sensation... however, in the cockpit that takes on a whole new relevance [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

The drool spot on your shirt is always a dead give-away to others...

AdrockAviator · August 30th, 2004, 20:05

Is it a cloud if you can see through it? Is this IMC? Let the debate continue. I think a pilot is in IMC when he/she can no longer maintain their VFR basic weather minimums. Probably was stated above, but I thought I would throw in my 2 cents. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

mastermags · August 30th, 2004, 21:44

[ QUOTE ]
Is it a cloud if you can see through it? Is this IMC? Let the debate continue. I think a pilot is in IMC when he/she can no longer maintain their VFR basic weather minimums. Probably was stated above, but I thought I would throw in my 2 cents. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can see through it?

Definately mentioned several times above, but nice try. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

August 29th, 2004, 12:50	#26
Cutlass1287 Junior Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 114	Re: What is and what isn\'t IMC? I am not thinking about getting "caught." Let me rephrase this: You walk into your interview and tell them "This 20 hours of acutal was all flown in CAVU conditions at night over the ocean." What would they say to that?

August 29th, 2004, 12:52	#27
BobDDuck Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Left Seat Posts: 5,924	Re: What is and what isn\'t IMC? Take it a step further then... When you do log actual how much do you log? If you fly through one cloud and you are in "actual" (whatever we are going to define it as) for about 3 seconds, is that .1 in the logbook? Or do you just ignore it unless you are in solid IMC for a good amount of time (more then 6 min)? I would think that it has to do with how much time you have and how much you need the numbers in your log book (ie regional job). I know for me, if I hit a few clouds I won't log the actual unless I am in them for a) more then a minute or two or b) unless I am in and out of them for a fair amount of time. Just my .02. Ethan

August 29th, 2004, 13:33	#28
eodfe Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Centennial, Colorado Posts: 165	Re: What is and what isn\'t IMC? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Personally I think you have to be mad to fly at night over the ocean without an instrument rating and yet it is perfectly legal to do so. [/ QUOTE ] Angry mad, or Crazy mad? Or both? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Your best Bill Murray voice; "Don't fly angry!"

August 29th, 2004, 14:52	#29
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,230	Re: What is and what isn\'t IMC? [ QUOTE ] I would think that if you live in Fl, and log most of your time in Fl, someone would take notice if you logged "actual" several times a week regularly. [/ QUOTE ] Never flown in FL during the summer have ya? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I racked up on the actual time while time building for me commercial. Those daily afternoon t-storms combined with covective activity all day long add up to a pretty decent amount of clouds. Now if you lived in AZ and had a lot of actual......

August 29th, 2004, 17:11	#30
RiddlePilot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 928	Re: What is and what isn\'t IMC? [ QUOTE ] Now if you lived in AZ and had a lot of actual...... [/ QUOTE ] Not so fast. Everyone assumes that AZ has very little in the way of actual. You'd really be surprised at what you can dig up around here. Take off from PRC and fly directly west on a moonless night. See anything? Nope! Actual. [ QUOTE ] Take it a step further then... When you do log actual how much do you log? If you fly through one cloud and you are in "actual" (whatever we are going to define it as) for about 3 seconds, is that .1 in the logbook? [/ QUOTE ] I cannot confirm nor deny that comment... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

August 29th, 2004, 17:25	#31
aloft Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Inside your OODA loop Posts: 7,148	Re: What is and what isn\'t IMC? [ QUOTE ] Not so fast. Everyone assumes that AZ has very little in the way of actual. You'd really be surprised at what you can dig up around here. Take off from PRC and fly directly west on a moonless night. See anything? Nope! Actual. [/ QUOTE ] Same scenario as the OP P'd, but swapping desert for ocean. Bottom line (IMHO), if there are no outside visual references, you're flying in instrument conditions and you'd better be flying by reference to your instruments, lest ye should pull a JFK Jr. and meet thine untimely demise. I can't think of anyplace in the FARs that says you must be instrument rated to log actual instrument time. You just have to be instrument rated to fly under instrument flight rules. Your mileage may vary. Widely.

August 29th, 2004, 18:48	#32
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: What is and what isn\'t IMC? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Not so fast. Everyone assumes that AZ has very little in the way of actual. You'd really be surprised at what you can dig up around here. Take off from PRC and fly directly west on a moonless night. See anything? Nope! Actual. [/ QUOTE ] Same scenario as the OP P'd, but swapping desert for ocean. Bottom line (IMHO), if there are no outside visual references, you're flying in instrument conditions and you'd better be flying by reference to your instruments, lest ye should pull a JFK Jr. and meet thine untimely demise. I can't think of anyplace in the FARs that says you must be instrument rated to log actual instrument time. You just have to be instrument rated to fly under instrument flight rules. Your mileage may vary. Widely. [/ QUOTE ] JFK jr was murder/suicide camoflauged as instrument incompetency.......

August 29th, 2004, 19:56	#33
Cutlass1287 Junior Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 114	Re: What is and what isn\'t IMC? If, in your estimation, total actual time during your flight was less than .1, why bother? If you keep going through clouds, and you estimate you spent about 20 % of your flight in actual, you log .2.

August 29th, 2004, 20:05	#34
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,590	Re: What is and what isn\'t IMC? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Not so fast. Everyone assumes that AZ has very little in the way of actual. You'd really be surprised at what you can dig up around here. Take off from PRC and fly directly west on a moonless night. See anything? Nope! Actual. [/ QUOTE ] Same scenario as the OP P'd, but swapping desert for ocean. Bottom line (IMHO), if there are no outside visual references, you're flying in instrument conditions and you'd better be flying by reference to your instruments, lest ye should pull a JFK Jr. and meet thine untimely demise. I can't think of anyplace in the FARs that says you must be instrument rated to log actual instrument time. You just have to be instrument rated to fly under instrument flight rules. Your mileage may vary. Widely. [/ QUOTE ] JFK jr was murder/suicide camoflauged as instrument incompetency....... [/ QUOTE ] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Must have been the republicans after him, huh? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

August 29th, 2004, 20:11	#35
SteveC Modulator Join Date: May 2003 Location: GRR Posts: 8,788	Re: What is and what isn\'t IMC? [ QUOTE ] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Must have been the republicans after him, huh? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] No way! Can't have been! The job wasn't botched. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

August 29th, 2004, 22:02	#36
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: What is and what isn\'t IMC? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Must have been the republicans after him, huh? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] No way! Can't have been! The job wasn't botched. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] I'll have to go back to the conspiracy website and look......I'll get back to you guys. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

August 29th, 2004, 22:05	#37
FalconCapt Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 489	Re: What is and what isn\'t IMC? [ QUOTE ] If, in your estimation, totalIf you keep going through clouds, and you estimate you spent about 20 % of your flight in actual, you log .2. [/ QUOTE ] So if I do 20% of my 9 1/2 hour flight in the clouds, I can only log .2 actual????? Man, I need to hit the math class again!

August 29th, 2004, 22:08	#38
Cutlass1287 Junior Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 114	Re: What is and what isn\'t IMC? What I neglected to mention before (perhaps out of hunger), is that I was a assuming a one hour flight. You are certainly a sharp man!

August 29th, 2004, 22:09	#39
FalconCapt Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 489	Re: What is and what isn\'t IMC? [ QUOTE ] I was a assuming a one hour flight [/ QUOTE ] Never, EVER, assume anything... Cuz we all know what assuming does... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

August 29th, 2004, 22:22	#40
Cutlass1287 Junior Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 114	Re: What is and what isn\'t IMC? Right, the whole Ass U Me thing.... I was really just trying to cover for being a dimwit when I posted that [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

August 29th, 2004, 22:25	#41
CaptainMatt Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Space Shuttle Posts: 620	Re: What is and what isn\'t IMC? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I was a assuming a one hour flight [/ QUOTE ] Never, EVER, assume anything... Cuz we all know what assuming does... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] I know what it makes you look like, An Idiot. I have personal experience on this, FalconCapt knows how I looked like an Idiot? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buck.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

August 29th, 2004, 22:26	#42
mastermags Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Atlanta, Ga Posts: 1,311	Re: What is and what isn\'t IMC? [ QUOTE ] Take it a step further then... When you do log actual how much do you log? If you fly through one cloud and you are in "actual" (whatever we are going to define it as) for about 3 seconds, is that .1 in the logbook? Or do you just ignore it unless you are in solid IMC for a good amount of time (more then 6 min)? I would think that it has to do with how much time you have and how much you need the numbers in your log book (ie regional job). I know for me, if I hit a few clouds I won't log the actual unless I am in them for a) more then a minute or two or b) unless I am in and out of them for a fair amount of time. Just my .02. Ethan [/ QUOTE ] I like cutlass's method here, about reasonably assuming your percentage of time. If you fly through 1 cloud for 3 seconds, were you really relying on your instruments to control flight. I could control the airplane with my eyes closed for 3 seconds. Most people would see the cloud, say "oooo, im in a cloud", and pop out the other side without even bothering to scan. The logbook system is an honor system. A lot of stuff will be guestimation, and that's the way its always been. Dont cheat the system, be reasonable, and it wont come back to haunt you. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bandit.gif[/img]

August 29th, 2004, 22:53	#43
FalconCapt Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 489	Re: What is and what isn\'t IMC? [ QUOTE ] I could control the airplane with my eyes closed for 3 seconds. [/ QUOTE ] I have controlled an airplane for FAR more than 3 seconds with my eyes close... When the engine noise goes away, that is when you know you are asleep...

August 30th, 2004, 01:14	#44
mastermags Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Atlanta, Ga Posts: 1,311	Re: What is and what isn\'t IMC? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I could control the airplane with my eyes closed for 3 seconds. [/ QUOTE ] I have controlled an airplane for FAR more than 3 seconds with my eyes close... When the engine noise goes away, that is when you know you are asleep... [/ QUOTE ] I rely on that falling sensation... however, in the cockpit that takes on a whole new relevance [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img].

August 30th, 2004, 02:22	#45
FalconCapt Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 489	Re: What is and what isn\'t IMC? [ QUOTE ] I rely on that falling sensation... however, in the cockpit that takes on a whole new relevance [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]. [/ QUOTE ] The drool spot on your shirt is always a dead give-away to others...

August 30th, 2004, 20:05	#46
AdrockAviator Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 76	Re: What is and what isn\'t IMC? Is it a cloud if you can see through it? Is this IMC? Let the debate continue. I think a pilot is in IMC when he/she can no longer maintain their VFR basic weather minimums. Probably was stated above, but I thought I would throw in my 2 cents. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

August 30th, 2004, 21:44	#47
mastermags Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Atlanta, Ga Posts: 1,311	Re: What is and what isn\'t IMC? [ QUOTE ] Is it a cloud if you can see through it? Is this IMC? Let the debate continue. I think a pilot is in IMC when he/she can no longer maintain their VFR basic weather minimums. Probably was stated above, but I thought I would throw in my 2 cents. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] If you can see through it? Definately mentioned several times above, but nice try. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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