Crooked Charter Request - Page 2

Doug Taylor · August 28th, 2004, 01:26

Nah, you can take anyone you'd like on a dual cross country.

But if someone were to call me at the flight school and say, "Hey, I want to fly from point-a to point-b and could we call it a cross country", I'd probably hand the telephone to another CFI because professionally, I know it wouldn't be legit and wouldn't want the expense, hassle and potentially career-ending visit to the inspectors office in order to explain the situation.

Regularly, the local FSDO (Flight Standards District Office) would call our flight school with "Hey, I need to get to Bakersfield immediately" or some other story as such.

No thanks! Not worth the risk!

DE727UPS · August 28th, 2004, 01:43

"Hey, I want to fly from point-a to point-b and could we call it a cross country"

If the guys a student pilot I don't see how the FSDO could say anything. At the same time, you gotta use your judgement on the inital phone call and if it seems fishy, I'd walk away. A lot would depend on how the caller presented himself initially. I still disagree that you'd be breaking any regs by taking a student pilot on any cross country that he'd like to go on.

mtsu_av8er · August 28th, 2004, 01:49

The thing that raised flags in this case was that the guy made it clear that he wanted to do something special for his girlfriend and take her to dinner at another airport.

After I made it clear that we couldn't legally do that, he changed his story and wanted "training".

Sorry, Boss....can't help you there...

Doug Taylor · August 28th, 2004, 01:49

Oh don't get me wrong, I agree. But when it's a familiar voice from the FSDO that regularly calls... Aww, dangit, now I had a great idea! I should have said, 'Sure! But this is a nudist flight school, do you have any repulsive moles, scars or contusions?" [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

mtsu_av8er · August 28th, 2004, 01:53

LOL.....there's a plane at my airport with "Air Fantasies" painted on the side in big letters....anybody wonder what that plane is used for?? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I was with a student doing a preflight the other day when that plane taxied up. I casually told him what they used it for, and he got a big kick out of it - until three big burly country boys climed out smiling and obviously drunk.... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

My student had a frown on his face for the whole flight..... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

kellwolf · August 28th, 2004, 02:27

[ QUOTE ]
If a student pilot wants to fly his girlfriend to go eat somewhere while fullfilling part 61 requirements for a certificate, the FAA shouldn't have a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except for that whole no pax thing unless they're with an instructor for student pilots....

EatSleepFly · August 28th, 2004, 09:05

[ QUOTE ]
If a student pilot wants to fly his girlfriend to go eat somewhere while fullfilling part 61 requirements for a certificate, the FAA shouldn't have a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo.

(Provided the instructor is along for the ride, of course! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] )

flyover · August 28th, 2004, 09:11

All this really points up is how ridiculous the feds and their rules are. You have an airplane, you have a professional pilot, you have a guy that wants to go somewhere with cash in hand. That should just about cover everything.

mtsu_av8er · August 28th, 2004, 12:17

[ QUOTE ]
All this really points up is how ridiculous the feds and their rules are. You have an airplane, you have a professional pilot, you have a guy that wants to go somewhere with cash in hand. That should just about cover everything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, not professional enough for the FAA.... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

And an airplane better equipped than most 135 operators around here!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Doug Taylor · August 28th, 2004, 12:25

Speaking of professional pilots and the FAA, did I ever tell you guys how my CFI-initial started out with a ten minute lecture about not selling out and instructing for free? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Cutlass1287 · August 28th, 2004, 12:28

Doesnt the goal/purpose of the flight count in anywhere? You can say that it is dual XC, but that doesnt mean it is a dual XC.

mtsu_av8er · August 28th, 2004, 12:36

[ QUOTE ]
Speaking of professional pilots and the FAA, did I ever tell you guys how my CFI-initial started out with a ten minute lecture about not selling out and instructing for free? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I've got a whole s tory for that one....

I'm really enjoying this CFI thing, but I get to meet some strange people (like the guy that came in last week and offered his services to our Chief Instructor for [b]FREE[/q] just to gain some experience....) [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/argue.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img]

E_Dawg · August 28th, 2004, 13:33

...and people who want free ground because 'my last instructor didn't charge me!' [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

MikeD · August 28th, 2004, 14:34

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Speaking of professional pilots and the FAA, did I ever tell you guys how my CFI-initial started out with a ten minute lecture about not selling out and instructing for free? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I've got a whole s tory for that one....

I'm really enjoying this CFI thing, but I get to meet some strange people (like the guy that came in last week and offered his services to our Chief Instructor for [b]FREE[/q] just to gain some experience....) [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/argue.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh....the beginning of working for crap wages begins at that level......and only gets worse as people move up.

But there's people ready, willing, and able to do it

aloft · August 28th, 2004, 15:28

[ QUOTE ]
so, let me get this straight... a student pilot, learning to fly, can take the girlfriend up.... but a guy who calls and offers to take a lesson but also wants to take the girlfriend is considered illegal right?

where's the line between it being legal vs illegal?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm thinking the landing at another airport is the distinction. Local sightseeing flights aren't quite so heavily regulated so if the dude just wanted Lloyd to teach him turns around a point over her house, that'd have been cool. But when the flight involves traveling to another destination, it gets awfully close to "common carriage" which would require a 135 or 121 certificate along with a handful of pilot requirements that Lloyd probably doesn't meet (135 IFR PIC reqs come to mind...unless Lloyd's got the 1500+ hrs and is keeping it a secret).

Without evidence to substantiate the claim that the "student pilot" was indeed a Student Pilot, the burden of proof that the flight was NOT an illegal Part 135 operation would be on Lloyd. Not a good place to be in, I think Lloyd made the right call.

SteveC · August 28th, 2004, 15:31

[ QUOTE ]
....which would require a 135 or 121 certificate along with a handful of pilot requirements that Lloyd probably doesn't meet (135 IFR PIC reqs come to mind...unless Lloyd's got the 1500+ hrs and is keeping it a secret)....

[/ QUOTE ]
Detail Police: 1200 hours.
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

aloft · August 28th, 2004, 15:39

Busted! Thanks. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

flyover · August 28th, 2004, 17:05

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All this really points up is how ridiculous the feds and their rules are. You have an airplane, you have a professional pilot, you have a guy that wants to go somewhere with cash in hand. That should just about cover everything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, not professional enough for the FAA.... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

And an airplane better equipped than most 135 operators around here!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm spoiled by the days when all you needed was a commercial ticket. I was flying part 135 scheduled operations as a captain (well there were no other pilots in the airplane so I must have been the captain) with just a commercial and 500 hours. We were a VFR only operation. Flew people all over the midwest. Building time without instructing. Ahhh, those were the days. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buck.gif[/img]

mtsu_av8er · August 28th, 2004, 18:45

[quoteBut when the flight involves traveling to another destination, it gets awfully close to "common carriage" which would require a 135 or 121 certificate along with a handful of pilot requirements that Lloyd probably doesn't meet (135 IFR PIC reqs come to mind...unless Lloyd's got the 1500+ hrs and is keeping it a secret).

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, after those 1800 hours as an airline pilot, I figured I'd give the whole flight instructing gig a shot.... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

August 28th, 2004, 22:03

Call me slow but I read the thread like 3 times and I didn't get what Lloyd said. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Doug Taylor · August 28th, 2004, 22:05

[ QUOTE ]
...and people who want free ground because 'my last instructor didn't charge me!' [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I had my share of 'those'.

My answer was usually, "I'm not your other instructor, but would you clean Wing's toilets for free?"

E_Dawg · August 28th, 2004, 22:05

[ QUOTE ]
Call me slow but I read the thread like 3 times and I didn't get what Lloyd said.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, you're slow.

Kristie · August 29th, 2004, 00:37

you forgot the [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Ed!

Raskolnikov · August 29th, 2004, 04:47

Brian, sounds like you started reading from the middle of the thread. Hit the first page and read the first post. Couldn't be more simple. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

EDUC8-or · August 29th, 2004, 09:36

I've got one to top giving free instruction, I had a guy who actually wanted ME to pay for his flight.

He was given a discovery flight for his birthday. The flight went well and he expressed interest in obtaining his PPL. He contacted me later and we scheduled another flight. We spent about 2 hours going through our dispatch procedures and how to complete a preflight. We flew for 1.8. We returned to the FBO and at the front desk he received the total price for the flight. The guy totally lost it and said that his last flight was free and why did he have to pay for this one. He went on and on about calling the better business bureau and why are we charging him for this, etc...

I honestly think he thought the flight would be free since he didn't have to pay for the first one. He thought that I should pay since I was the one who really knew how to fly. I told him he was welcome to leave without paying, but we will be sending him a bill for the flight time and instruction received. He paid up about 2 weeks later and tried to schedule another flight, yeah right buddy!