ATA to pull out of Chicago!

av8trxx · August 24th, 2004, 18:02

Wow. Didn't realize their plight was that bad!

http://chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/news.pl?id=13645

Wonder how this is going to affect Chicago Express....

SteveC · August 24th, 2004, 18:15

Sheesh.....

Good timing FlyChicaga!

FalconCapt · August 24th, 2004, 18:34

[ QUOTE ]
Sheesh.....

Good timing FlyChicaga!

[/ QUOTE ]

Not so fast...

"ExpressJet MEC has now authorized the distribution of a strike ballot."

ExpressJet Strike Ballot to be issued soon

tonyw · August 24th, 2004, 18:34

Holy cow!

Szluka, talk about good timing!

Wolverine · August 24th, 2004, 19:49

MSNBC ATA story

"On Tuesday, the Financial Times newspaper reported that Seabury Group, a boutique investment bank specializing in transportation, had been asked to find buyers for ATA's leases on 14 airport gates at Midway.

Both ATA and Seabury Group declined comment.

According to the FT, the Indianapolis-based airline is also seeking buyers for its more than 30 Boeing 737-800 jets. AirTran Airways (AAI) and Mesa Airlines (MESA) are "among those understood to be interested," the newspaper reported. Neither airline returned calls for comment."

JO wants 738s? Didn't he try that once and couldn't make it work with ALPA?

aloft · August 24th, 2004, 19:50

No, the strike ballot thing really screws him if it passes--pilots on probation have no union protections and can be fired for honoring the strike.

FalconCapt · August 24th, 2004, 19:52

[ QUOTE ]
pilots on probation have no union protections and can be fired for honoring the strike.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if he doesn't honor the strike he'll be forever labled a SCAB... Talk about a rock and a hard place...

MikeD · August 24th, 2004, 20:00

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
pilots on probation have no union protections and can be fired for honoring the strike.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if he doesn't honor the strike he'll be forever labled a SCAB... Talk about a rock and a hard place...

[/ QUOTE ]

Then probably fired.......best of both worlds....... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Kingairer · August 24th, 2004, 20:58

Relax folks. XJet most likely isnt going to strike. Taking a strike vote is like yelling at someone who cut you off in the street, and telling them you're going to beat them up. Id much rather be at Xjet now then at CHiex. Even if they do strike, they most likely will only furlough and not fire. Firing someone without option for return would be hurting there own cause to just have to hire somone else and train someone else in the same a/c.
I dont know enough about ATA, but why hasnt the low fare formula worked for them?? I guess they arent greyhound enough.

flyover · August 25th, 2004, 08:46

[ QUOTE ]
I dont know enough about ATA, but why hasnt the low fare formula worked for them?? I guess they arent greyhound enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are trying to run a hub directly against a SWA hub. I'd say AirTran or JetBlue would have found that difficult to do as well. When you are chipping away at legacy carriers you can throw in some $499 fares and still look cheap.

Minnesota_Flyer · August 25th, 2004, 12:16

[ QUOTE ]
No, the strike ballot thing really screws him if it passes--pilots on probation have no union protections and can be fired for honoring the strike.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really true. All employees have a statutory right to engage in collective action (i.e., a strike). It doesn't matter whether you have union protections or not or whether you're on "probation" or not. You can't fire an employee for striking.

This shouldn't be confused with strike replacements. An employer can hire replacements for striking workers (this is rare for pilots because of the time and expense required to train a whole new group of pilots) during the strike. In some circumstances, the employer may not be required to boot the replacements to bring back strikers after the strike is over. The employer would, however, likely have to put the replaced strikers first in line for "rehire" when new openings appear.

Workers of the world unite!!

MF

asl · August 25th, 2004, 15:17

I don't believe in strike action. I'd never ever do it myself, it goes against all economic sense, and is something used by people who obviously have no idea of their role in a business and are selfishly looking out for themselves and not the group good of whoever they are working for. By striking you put the company itself at risk, especially in a competitive field like the airline industry.

Why shouldn't salaries and worker's benefits be detemined by the open job market, just as the price of goods in a shop is?

If you think you are paying underpaid, then go and work somewhere else. The basis: the company will get what it pays for!!

Kingairer · August 25th, 2004, 15:25

Riiiiight.

pilot602 · August 25th, 2004, 15:26

[ QUOTE ]
I don't believe in strike action. I'd never ever do it myself, it goes against all economic sense, and is something used by people who obviously have no idea of their role in a business and are selfishly looking out for themselves and not the group good of whoever they are working for. By striking you put the company itself at risk, especially in a competitive field like the airline industry.

Why shouldn't salaries and worker's benefits be detemined by the open job market, just as the price of goods in a shop is?

If you think you are paying underpaid, then go and work somewhere else. The basis: the company will get what it pays for!!

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img]

Don't believe in unions? Fine. But don't go around knocking people for using LAWFUL means to assure they get paid as much as they can. If a CEO can "negotiate" to get paid as much as he or she can why, then , is it "selfish" when employees do the same?

Speaking of selfishness ... when was the last time you took a voluntary pay cut to help out your company?

Didn't think so ...

tonyw · August 25th, 2004, 15:31

[ QUOTE ]
people who obviously have no idea of their role in a business and are selfishly looking out for themselves and not the group good of whoever they are working for.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, like the people who get 400 times the wages of their average workers sure are. And then they go and label the people who ask for a few more crumbs greedy.

After all, guys like Lay, Skilling, Kozlowski, Ebbers, and the Rigases were looking out for the group good when they shafted their companies.

Cosmo1999 · August 25th, 2004, 16:57

[ QUOTE ]
I don't believe in strike action. I'd never ever do it myself, it goes against all economic sense, and is something used by people who obviously have no idea of their role in a business and are selfishly looking out for themselves and not the group good of whoever they are working for. By striking you put the company itself at risk, especially in a competitive field like the airline industry.

Why shouldn't salaries and worker's benefits be detemined by the open job market, just as the price of goods in a shop is?

If you think you are paying underpaid, then go and work somewhere else. The basis: the company will get what it pays for!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha! If we left things up to the open market totally then there would be a bunch of starry eyed pilots saying they would do it for free and no one would get paid

mtsu_av8er · August 25th, 2004, 23:01

[ QUOTE ]
I don't believe in strike action.

[/ QUOTE ]

And how much do airline pilots make over in the UK??

Now, put two and two together.

mpenguin1 · August 25th, 2004, 23:09

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont know enough about ATA, but why hasnt the low fare formula worked for them?? I guess they arent greyhound enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

ATA grew wayyyyyyyy to fast, not exactly the South West Formula, flying the 737-800 & the 757's at the same time must be killing them in crew training alone, both aircraft are pretty close when it comes to number of seats. If they wanted to go with "2" fleet types, they should have looked at a smaller aircraft. To chastise ATA a little more, during all of this expansion, they were building a training center, would have been cheaper to just rent simulator time elsewhere.

As far as those "30" 737-800's, I believe that most of them are leased, so, that will be intersting how ATA can get out of the contract.

FlyChicaga · August 28th, 2004, 18:17

I'm home for the weekend and only have time for browing through a few of the 120+ new threads (and over 2200 new posts) [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] but I thought I'd reply. First, I don't think there is a lot of fact surrounding these news reports about ATA. I don't think they are planning on pulling out anytime soon, unless they go Chapter 7. MDW is their biggest hub.

About XJT and the strike. I won't say too much about it, but I will say should I decide to not go to work during a strike I will be fired. However, normally contractual language in the final contract negotiation process will state that all probationary pilots fired during the strike be rehired.

Rock and a hard place? No, not really. It's a pretty straight forward decision to me what to do in case of a strike. Am I worried? No. I think things will work out just fine.

Hopefully the pilot group here will be able to get what we need to move regional contracts in the right direction: FORWARD.

August 24th, 2004, 18:02	#1
av8trxx Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: KSAN Posts: 392	ATA to pull out of Chicago! Wow. Didn't realize their plight was that bad! http://chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/news.pl?id=13645 Wonder how this is going to affect Chicago Express....

August 24th, 2004, 18:15	#2
SteveC Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: GRR Posts: 8,311	Re: ATA to pull out of Chicago! Sheesh..... Good timing FlyChicaga!

August 24th, 2004, 18:34	#3
FalconCapt Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 489	Re: ATA to pull out of Chicago! [ QUOTE ] Sheesh..... Good timing FlyChicaga! [/ QUOTE ] Not so fast... "ExpressJet MEC has now authorized the distribution of a strike ballot." ExpressJet Strike Ballot to be issued soon

August 24th, 2004, 18:34	#4
tonyw Old Skool Join Date: May 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 15,091	Re: ATA to pull out of Chicago! Holy cow! Szluka, talk about good timing!

August 24th, 2004, 19:49	#5
Wolverine Junior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 167	Re: ATA to pull out of Chicago! MSNBC ATA story "On Tuesday, the Financial Times newspaper reported that Seabury Group, a boutique investment bank specializing in transportation, had been asked to find buyers for ATA's leases on 14 airport gates at Midway. Both ATA and Seabury Group declined comment. According to the FT, the Indianapolis-based airline is also seeking buyers for its more than 30 Boeing 737-800 jets. AirTran Airways (AAI) and Mesa Airlines (MESA) are "among those understood to be interested," the newspaper reported. Neither airline returned calls for comment." JO wants 738s? Didn't he try that once and couldn't make it work with ALPA?

August 24th, 2004, 19:50	#6
aloft Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Inside your OODA loop Posts: 6,722	Re: ATA to pull out of Chicago! No, the strike ballot thing really screws him if it passes--pilots on probation have no union protections and can be fired for honoring the strike.

August 24th, 2004, 19:52	#7
FalconCapt Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 489	Re: ATA to pull out of Chicago! [ QUOTE ] pilots on probation have no union protections and can be fired for honoring the strike. [/ QUOTE ] And if he doesn't honor the strike he'll be forever labled a SCAB... Talk about a rock and a hard place...

August 24th, 2004, 20:00	#8
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: ATA to pull out of Chicago! [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] pilots on probation have no union protections and can be fired for honoring the strike. [/ QUOTE ] And if he doesn't honor the strike he'll be forever labled a SCAB... Talk about a rock and a hard place... [/ QUOTE ] Then probably fired.......best of both worlds....... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

August 24th, 2004, 20:58	#9
Kingairer Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Nomadic...World Wide Boobie Bungalow Bouncer Posts: 3,162	Re: ATA to pull out of Chicago! Relax folks. XJet most likely isnt going to strike. Taking a strike vote is like yelling at someone who cut you off in the street, and telling them you're going to beat them up. Id much rather be at Xjet now then at CHiex. Even if they do strike, they most likely will only furlough and not fire. Firing someone without option for return would be hurting there own cause to just have to hire somone else and train someone else in the same a/c. I dont know enough about ATA, but why hasnt the low fare formula worked for them?? I guess they arent greyhound enough.

August 25th, 2004, 08:46	#10
flyover Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,389	Re: ATA to pull out of Chicago! [ QUOTE ] I dont know enough about ATA, but why hasnt the low fare formula worked for them?? I guess they arent greyhound enough. [/ QUOTE ] They are trying to run a hub directly against a SWA hub. I'd say AirTran or JetBlue would have found that difficult to do as well. When you are chipping away at legacy carriers you can throw in some $499 fares and still look cheap.

August 25th, 2004, 12:16	#11
Minnesota_Flyer Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: the Twin Cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul Posts: 1,895	Re: ATA to pull out of Chicago! [ QUOTE ] No, the strike ballot thing really screws him if it passes--pilots on probation have no union protections and can be fired for honoring the strike. [/ QUOTE ] Not really true. All employees have a statutory right to engage in collective action (i.e., a strike). It doesn't matter whether you have union protections or not or whether you're on "probation" or not. You can't fire an employee for striking. This shouldn't be confused with strike replacements. An employer can hire replacements for striking workers (this is rare for pilots because of the time and expense required to train a whole new group of pilots) during the strike. In some circumstances, the employer may not be required to boot the replacements to bring back strikers after the strike is over. The employer would, however, likely have to put the replaced strikers first in line for "rehire" when new openings appear. Workers of the world unite!! MF

August 25th, 2004, 15:17	#12
asl Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Dartford,UK (near London) Posts: 241	Re: ATA to pull out of Chicago! I don't believe in strike action. I'd never ever do it myself, it goes against all economic sense, and is something used by people who obviously have no idea of their role in a business and are selfishly looking out for themselves and not the group good of whoever they are working for. By striking you put the company itself at risk, especially in a competitive field like the airline industry. Why shouldn't salaries and worker's benefits be detemined by the open job market, just as the price of goods in a shop is? If you think you are paying underpaid, then go and work somewhere else. The basis: the company will get what it pays for!!

August 25th, 2004, 15:25	#13
Kingairer Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Nomadic...World Wide Boobie Bungalow Bouncer Posts: 3,162	Re: ATA to pull out of Chicago! Riiiiight.

August 25th, 2004, 15:26	#14
pilot602 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: who haa Posts: 3,750	Re: ATA to pull out of Chicago! [ QUOTE ] I don't believe in strike action. I'd never ever do it myself, it goes against all economic sense, and is something used by people who obviously have no idea of their role in a business and are selfishly looking out for themselves and not the group good of whoever they are working for. By striking you put the company itself at risk, especially in a competitive field like the airline industry. Why shouldn't salaries and worker's benefits be detemined by the open job market, just as the price of goods in a shop is? If you think you are paying underpaid, then go and work somewhere else. The basis: the company will get what it pays for!! [/ QUOTE ] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] Don't believe in unions? Fine. But don't go around knocking people for using LAWFUL means to assure they get paid as much as they can. If a CEO can "negotiate" to get paid as much as he or she can why, then , is it "selfish" when employees do the same? Speaking of selfishness ... when was the last time you took a voluntary pay cut to help out your company? Didn't think so ...

August 25th, 2004, 15:31	#15
tonyw Old Skool Join Date: May 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 15,091	Re: ATA to pull out of Chicago! [ QUOTE ] people who obviously have no idea of their role in a business and are selfishly looking out for themselves and not the group good of whoever they are working for. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, like the people who get 400 times the wages of their average workers sure are. And then they go and label the people who ask for a few more crumbs greedy. After all, guys like Lay, Skilling, Kozlowski, Ebbers, and the Rigases were looking out for the group good when they shafted their companies.

August 25th, 2004, 16:57	#16
Cosmo1999 Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 247	Re: ATA to pull out of Chicago! [ QUOTE ] I don't believe in strike action. I'd never ever do it myself, it goes against all economic sense, and is something used by people who obviously have no idea of their role in a business and are selfishly looking out for themselves and not the group good of whoever they are working for. By striking you put the company itself at risk, especially in a competitive field like the airline industry. Why shouldn't salaries and worker's benefits be detemined by the open job market, just as the price of goods in a shop is? If you think you are paying underpaid, then go and work somewhere else. The basis: the company will get what it pays for!! [/ QUOTE ] Ha! If we left things up to the open market totally then there would be a bunch of starry eyed pilots saying they would do it for free and no one would get paid

August 25th, 2004, 23:01	#17
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,400	Re: ATA to pull out of Chicago! [ QUOTE ] I don't believe in strike action. [/ QUOTE ] And how much do airline pilots make over in the UK?? Now, put two and two together.

August 25th, 2004, 23:09	#18
mpenguin1 Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 9,831 Blog Entries: 5	Re: ATA to pull out of Chicago! [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I dont know enough about ATA, but why hasnt the low fare formula worked for them?? I guess they arent greyhound enough. [/ QUOTE ] ATA grew wayyyyyyyy to fast, not exactly the South West Formula, flying the 737-800 & the 757's at the same time must be killing them in crew training alone, both aircraft are pretty close when it comes to number of seats. If they wanted to go with "2" fleet types, they should have looked at a smaller aircraft. To chastise ATA a little more, during all of this expansion, they were building a training center, would have been cheaper to just rent simulator time elsewhere. As far as those "30" 737-800's, I believe that most of them are leased, so, that will be intersting how ATA can get out of the contract.

August 28th, 2004, 18:17	#19
FlyChicaga Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 4,745	Re: ATA to pull out of Chicago! I'm home for the weekend and only have time for browing through a few of the 120+ new threads (and over 2200 new posts) [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] but I thought I'd reply. First, I don't think there is a lot of fact surrounding these news reports about ATA. I don't think they are planning on pulling out anytime soon, unless they go Chapter 7. MDW is their biggest hub. About XJT and the strike. I won't say too much about it, but I will say should I decide to not go to work during a strike I will be fired. However, normally contractual language in the final contract negotiation process will state that all probationary pilots fired during the strike be rehired. Rock and a hard place? No, not really. It's a pretty straight forward decision to me what to do in case of a strike. Am I worried? No. I think things will work out just fine. Hopefully the pilot group here will be able to get what we need to move regional contracts in the right direction: FORWARD.

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