Watching sheep to the slaughter - Page 3

mtsu_av8er · August 24th, 2004, 17:01

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Question for you, Brian:

Would you pay to work at MacDonalds, Wal Mart, Buger King...... or anywhere else you might want a job??

[/ QUOTE ]

No because I wouldn't be building up air time in those jobs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brian, stop being stupid and listen to what folks are trying to tell you. It's bad juju. Don't pay for something you should get paid to do.

I know you know it all right now, but even a broken clock is right twice per day.

FalconCapt · August 24th, 2004, 17:03

[ QUOTE ]
I tought it costs $8 an hour to fly. Cost me not them. If I was to get paid $8 then no way. Me pay the airline $8 an hour to build time sounds good. Me getting $8 an hour to fly for them doesn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

How exactly does this work in your world??? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

So you would PAY an airline to fly for them, but if they only wanted to pay you $8/hr you would say no way??? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img]

You can't seriously be for real??? So you will pay to fly, but you won't fly and get paid??? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img]

Please go find some other career field... You are in the wrong place... You are obviously not able to grasp the concept of gainful employment in this field... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/argue.gif[/img]

tonyw · August 24th, 2004, 17:06

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Me pay the airline $8 an hour to build time sounds good.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't freaking get it, do you?

I rescind my apology to you.

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img]

ready2fly · August 24th, 2004, 17:07

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Question for you, Brian:

Would you pay to work at MacDonalds, Wal Mart, Buger King...... or anywhere else you might want a job??

[/ QUOTE ]

No because I wouldn't be building up air time in those jobs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brian, stop being stupid and listen to what folks are trying to tell you. It's bad juju. Don't pay for something you should get paid to do.

I know you know it all right now, but even a broken clock is right twice per day.

[/ QUOTE ]
There.. I highlighted it for you, Brian.

We're not going to continue to spoon-feed this stuff to you, little brother. At some point, you need to start figuring it out for yourself.

MikeD · August 24th, 2004, 17:10

MikeD thinks..(please don't be another 8-pager....)

So, the WX here is BKN40 with viz unlimited. Average chance for some RA-, though.

CaptainMatt · August 24th, 2004, 17:11

I've been reading over all these PFT threads, and I've noticed they all lack Facts. You guys expect people to take what you believe and are saying and automatically agree with you. I hate to say it but things don't work like that. You have to have an argument that is rich with facts.

You guys need facts to back up what your saying. I understand you guys are experts in your fields, and what your saying holds a lot of weight, but you can't just rely on that, you guys need the Facts. Just like the "Facts of Life." [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

It's like a history paper. Can you write a history paper with out specific facts??? Of course not, no one will believe you.

Thats why I made the suggestion that someone or some people write an article/paper for the front page that has all the facts about PFT. Maybe personal accounts and other things.

You guys shakin what I'm bakin? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

tonyw · August 24th, 2004, 17:14

But Matt, here is one indisputable fact. Period.

If you do PFJ, you are taking a job away from someone. No question about it. Someone who is qualified to do that FO job no longer has it, because you took it from him. And how did you do that? By taking out your wallet.

Every single slot taken by a PFJ guy is one less slot for folks who are looking for that right hand seat.

CaptainMatt · August 24th, 2004, 17:17

[ QUOTE ]
But Matt, here is one indisputable fact. Period.

If you do PFJ, you are taking a job away from someone. No question about it. Someone who is qualified to do that FO job no longer has it, because you took it from him. And how did you do that? By taking out your wallet.

Every single slot taken by a PFJ guy is one less slot for folks who are looking for that right hand seat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats not fact. What is backing it up? Purely for example: You need to provide something like how FO jonny lost his job because of PFJ.

Windchill · August 24th, 2004, 17:20

Straight from Gulfstream's website.

[ QUOTE ]
Log More Than 280 Hours Of Airline Quality Flight Training For Less Than $72 Per Hour

[/ QUOTE ]

While they say hey you'll get paid to learn to fly w/ an airline, in the end it's still everything you're paying to be there.

Brian, are you saying if you had the option of:
a) Paying an airline $8/hr to fly for them
b) Airline paying you $8/hr to fly for them

you would rather choose to pay instead of being paid???

Anyhow, real life example, Colgan Air new-hires pay for their training -- any company that hires you should pay for your training.

Does a WalMart employee go to WalMart and pay them $10/hr to learn the job??? I hope not!

Hmmmm . . . four pages, eight pages . . . this topic will still make it's way back.

Sir_Captain · August 24th, 2004, 17:22

Same happens when someone is bumped for any odd reason and someone younger, less experienced and less paid gets the job. Should he feel guilty for stealing? I'm with Matt, you should write a cover for this site with the PFT and actual accounts of occurrences where PFT is bad, not just why you think it's bad . I'm out before you ladies all go and get your panties in a twist again.

FalconCapt · August 24th, 2004, 17:25

[ QUOTE ]
Thats not fact. What is backing it up? Purely for example: You need to provide something like how FO jonny lost his job because of PFJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Matt, when PFT was rampant in the industry I am guessing you weren't even riding a 2 wheeler yet (1990-1995)... We are talking from experience, something you (as a self proclaimed "Young Gun of JC" [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cwm27.gif[/img] ) have absolutely none of...

Now you can either learn from history and the vast experience that is on this board from the guys who are or have been in the industry or you can be an oblivious ignoramous and continue to walk blindly towards the shiny plane... The choice is yours...

If you can't clearly see how PFT is bad, correction, VERY bad for the industry as a whole, then obviously you are not even close to having the whole picture... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img]

Show me another profession where people actually PAY their employer to work for them... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

eeg · August 24th, 2004, 17:26

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I tought it costs $8 an hour to fly. Cost me not them. If I was to get paid $8 then no way. Me pay the airline $8 an hour to build time sounds good. Me getting $8 an hour to fly for them doesn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

How exactly does this work in your world??? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

So you would PAY an airline to fly for them, but if they only wanted to pay you $8/hr you would say no way??? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img]

You can't seriously be for real??? So you will pay to fly, but you won't fly and get paid??? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img]

Please go find some other career field... You are in the wrong place... You are obviously not able to grasp the concept of gainful employment in this field... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/argue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm thinking here and just thinking that he meant it in a way of instead of paying let's say $75 for a cessna 152 that he would rather pay $8 and hour for a better aircraft. That's why he said in one of his earlier post " What's the catch" Brian, Am I right here? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

CaptainMatt · August 24th, 2004, 17:29

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thats not fact. What is backing it up? Purely for example: You need to provide something like how FO jonny lost his job because of PFJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Matt, when PFT was rampant in the industry I am guessing you weren't even riding a 2 wheeler yet (1990-1995)... We are talking from experience, something you (as a self proclaimed "Young Gun of JC" [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cwm27.gif[/img] ) have absolutely none of...

Now you can either learn from history and the vast experience that is on this board from the guys who are or have been in the industry or you can be an oblivious ignoramous and continue to walk blindly towards the shiny plane... The choice is yours...

If you can't clearly see how PFT is bad, correction, VERY bad for the industry as a whole, then obviously you are not even close to having the whole picture... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img]

Show me another profession where people actually PAY their employer to work for them... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa Dude... You need to calm down. Never did I say PFT was the way to go man! Your putting words into my mouth. You say there is this History, Lets see it big man. Specific Examples! Thats all I'm asking. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img]

PS: I'm older than you think FALCONCapt. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/spin2.gif[/img]

TheWife · August 24th, 2004, 17:29

[ QUOTE ]
So you would PAY an airline to fly for them, but if they only wanted to pay you $8/hr you would say no way???

[/ QUOTE ] I don't think he is saying he would pay an airline to fly for them, if you go back and re-read it, it sounds like you can fly the plane, as in RENT it, for $8 an hour, sounds like you pay $20-30K whatever for your training and then rent the 1900 for $8 an hour. That's what I thought it sounded like and I even know better.

[ QUOTE ]
Please go find some other career field... You are in the wrong place... You are obviously not able to grasp the concept of gainful employment in this field...

[/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ]
You don't freaking get it, do you?

I rescind my apology to you.

[/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ]
Brian, stop being stupid

[/ QUOTE ] I think you guys are being WAY WAY mean. Seriously. If you don't have the patience to explain it w/o being insulting then throw your hands up and stay out of the thread. Whether a person "gets it" or doesn't, they are still human, and do not deserve to be repeatedly insulted. Imagine if JC exsisted back when you were teenagers, I am sure a lot of you would be on the receiving end of these insult-a-thons. Like Matt said, explain some facts, not your emotions. I imagine threads like this really turn off a lot of lurkers. That's one of the reasons my husband doesn't go to message boards.

FalconCapt · August 24th, 2004, 17:30

[ QUOTE ]
I'm thinking here and just thinking that he meant it in a way of instead of paying let's say $75 for a cessna 152 that he would rather pay $8 and hour for a better aircraft. That's why he said in one of his earlier post " What's the catch" Brian, Am I right here? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

The "Catch" is you can't "get to pay" for this "training" until you have enough experience and ratings to ride in their right seat... The "Catch" is that by the time you have these hours and ratings you are qualified enough to go get a job where someone actually PAYS YOU... Not the other way around...

Brain, there aren't 25 hour Student Pilots riding in Gulfstreams right seats... they are guys who already have their Commercial, Multi & Instrument ratings... When you are at that point, typically you stop paying for flight time anyhow, because you now have the experience and qualifications to get paid to fly...

Is this concept that hard to grasp???? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img]

eeg · August 24th, 2004, 17:31

Now this is getting interesting! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

ready2fly · August 24th, 2004, 17:33

Michelle, when a subject is brought up time after time after time after time... and people STILL don't get it... that those on this sight with a bit more life experience/flight experience are trying to stop them from making a HUGE mistake.... adn they still want "proof" (as if the word of someone who has been in the industry for over 10+ years isn't enough), then yes - it may sound a tad "mean", but it's necessary.

If one person on here listens, then it's worth it.

CaptainMatt · August 24th, 2004, 17:33

All I was asking was for some specific Evidence, If I recall someone else asked this a couple months ago in a PFT thread and He got Sorely beatin up. I'm probably nuts for keeping this up, But I think something should be written up. Why don't you write up some Article FalconCapt. I think that would be great if you did since you have all the experience.

TheWife · August 24th, 2004, 17:34

[ QUOTE ]
Is this concept that hard to grasp????

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, honestly it can be. So sorry you all have to waste so much time and energy on those stupid people like me and others who don't always understand things right up front. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] Maybe I am just having a hormonal day but holy hell! You guys have a chance to act as mentors, big brothers, inspirations. Way to go at that. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

FalconCapt · August 24th, 2004, 17:35

[ QUOTE ]
PS: I'm older than you think FALCONCapt. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/spin2.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps now would be a good time to demonstrate that, until you do, pretty much everyone is going to lump you together with the likes of BJ and CC87...

So, let me ask you this... If a company can get idiots to pay to fly in the right seat instead of paying a pilot to fly the right seat, which are they going to do???

Now, if they can't find anyone to pay to ride in the right seat, they are then forced to pay a pilot to fly in the right seat...

All of the airlines require 2 pilots, so that right seat MUST be filled, if someone is willing to pay to fill it, then that is taking a job away from someone who should be paid to fill it...

The concept (I thought) isn't that hard to understand... banghead:

TheWife · August 24th, 2004, 17:37

How is some one supposed to know that it's been brought up time and time and time again and beaten to death until it's too late? I don't go searching for every subject before I post on it just incase it happens to be one that might cause some drama and passion. [ QUOTE ]
and people STILL don't get it... that those on this sight with a bit more life experience/flight experience are trying to stop them from making a HUGE mistake.... adn they still want "proof" (as if the word of someone who has been in the industry for over 10+ years isn't enough), then yes - it may sound a tad "mean", but it's necessary.

[/ QUOTE ] A more patient and less hostile approach would take this campaign a LOT farther than insults and frustration.

RPM · August 24th, 2004, 17:37

[ QUOTE ]
I think someone should write an article and have it posted on the main page of Jetcareers. And then whenever anyone asks about PFT, We can refer them to this article. I think we can get some people that are knowledgable enough to sit down and write a "What is PFT?" piece. Maybe some of the more senior guys could write it.

Just a suggestion... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, this once a week PFT/PFJ session is getting really old! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

eeg · August 24th, 2004, 17:37

[ QUOTE ]
[Is this concept that hard to grasp???? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

For a new student the aswer is yes. It is hard to grasp. For some harder than others. I was bright enough to find this site and learn better. We need to educate people on this subject instead of just bitching about it. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/spin2.gif[/img]

CaptainMatt · August 24th, 2004, 17:38

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PS: I'm older than you think FALCONCapt. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/spin2.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps now would be a good time to demonstrate that, until you do, pretty much everyone is going to lump you together with the likes of BJ and CC87...

So, let me ask you this... If a company can get idiots to pay to fly in the right seat instead of paying a pilot to fly the right seat, which are they going to do???

Now, if they can't find anyone to pay to ride in the right seat, they are then forced to pay a pilot to fly in the right seat...

All of the airlines require 2 pilots, so that right seat MUST be filled, if someone is willing to pay to fill it, then that is taking a job away from someone who should be paid to fill it...

The concept (I thought) isn't that hard to understand... If I could figure out how to draw you a picture of this concept I would, but I don't think it would help... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

You obviously Haven't read anything I wrote in this Thread!

Just because I asked for some evidence and someone to write an article on it Does not mean I don't understand what PFT is. Did I once make some remark saying that I didn't know what PFT was? Did I?

My whole purpose of asking for evidence was to help others, Like Brian that don't understand the concept. I'm not sure why this set alarms off to you that you had to shove it in my face that I'm some kind of Idiot. I think you need to calm down a bit.

Cosmo1999 · August 24th, 2004, 17:41

Please for the love of god make it stop!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img]

Unfortunately Brian has the potential of being another sheep to the slaughter. Wasting exorbiant amounts of money when he doesnt have to. Dude if your patient and wait it out you wont have to pay to build time after you get your ratings. The time will come to you, you will get paid something worthwhile hopefully. Thats the whole point you seem to be missing you dont have to keep wasting all that money and stealing jobs while your at it. It builds character while your at it. Ok I think the original intent of this was to make fun of those FOs at Gulfstream who are naieve enough to fork over the check. You can see it in their eyes in the webcam lol. Thats what starry eyed pilot syndrome looks like. Boy I think we could all talk about this forever.

August 24th, 2004, 17:01	#51
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,590	Re: Watching sheep to the slaughter [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Question for you, Brian: Would you pay to work at MacDonalds, Wal Mart, Buger King...... or anywhere else you might want a job?? [/ QUOTE ] No because I wouldn't be building up air time in those jobs. [/ QUOTE ] Brian, stop being stupid and listen to what folks are trying to tell you. It's bad juju. Don't pay for something you should get paid to do. I know you know it all right now, but even a broken clock is right twice per day.

August 24th, 2004, 17:03	#52
FalconCapt Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 489	Re: Watching sheep to the slaughter [ QUOTE ] I tought it costs $8 an hour to fly. Cost me not them. If I was to get paid $8 then no way. Me pay the airline $8 an hour to build time sounds good. Me getting $8 an hour to fly for them doesn't. [/ QUOTE ] How exactly does this work in your world??? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] So you would PAY an airline to fly for them, but if they only wanted to pay you $8/hr you would say no way??? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] You can't seriously be for real??? So you will pay to fly, but you won't fly and get paid??? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] Please go find some other career field... You are in the wrong place... You are obviously not able to grasp the concept of gainful employment in this field... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/argue.gif[/img]

August 24th, 2004, 17:06	#53
tonyw Old Skool Join Date: May 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 15,922	Re: Watching sheep to the slaughter [ QUOTE ] Me pay the airline $8 an hour to build time sounds good. [/ QUOTE ] You don't freaking get it, do you? I rescind my apology to you. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img]

August 24th, 2004, 17:07	#54
ready2fly Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: DFW Posts: 7,373	Re: Watching sheep to the slaughter [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Question for you, Brian: Would you pay to work at MacDonalds, Wal Mart, Buger King...... or anywhere else you might want a job?? [/ QUOTE ] No because I wouldn't be building up air time in those jobs. [/ QUOTE ] Brian, stop being stupid and listen to what folks are trying to tell you. It's bad juju. Don't pay for something you should get paid to do. I know you know it all right now, but even a broken clock is right twice per day. [/ QUOTE ] There.. I highlighted it for you, Brian. We're not going to continue to spoon-feed this stuff to you, little brother. At some point, you need to start figuring it out for yourself.

August 24th, 2004, 17:10	#55
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: Watching sheep to the slaughter MikeD thinks..(please don't be another 8-pager....) So, the WX here is BKN40 with viz unlimited. Average chance for some RA-, though.

August 24th, 2004, 17:11	#56
CaptainMatt Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Space Shuttle Posts: 620	Re: Watching sheep to the slaughter I've been reading over all these PFT threads, and I've noticed they all lack Facts. You guys expect people to take what you believe and are saying and automatically agree with you. I hate to say it but things don't work like that. You have to have an argument that is rich with facts. You guys need facts to back up what your saying. I understand you guys are experts in your fields, and what your saying holds a lot of weight, but you can't just rely on that, you guys need the Facts. Just like the "Facts of Life." [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] It's like a history paper. Can you write a history paper with out specific facts??? Of course not, no one will believe you. Thats why I made the suggestion that someone or some people write an article/paper for the front page that has all the facts about PFT. Maybe personal accounts and other things. You guys shakin what I'm bakin? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

August 24th, 2004, 17:14	#57
tonyw Old Skool Join Date: May 2002 Location: Maryland Posts: 15,922	Re: Watching sheep to the slaughter But Matt, here is one indisputable fact. Period. If you do PFJ, you are taking a job away from someone. No question about it. Someone who is qualified to do that FO job no longer has it, because you took it from him. And how did you do that? By taking out your wallet. Every single slot taken by a PFJ guy is one less slot for folks who are looking for that right hand seat.

August 24th, 2004, 17:17	#58
CaptainMatt Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Space Shuttle Posts: 620	Re: Watching sheep to the slaughter [ QUOTE ] But Matt, here is one indisputable fact. Period. If you do PFJ, you are taking a job away from someone. No question about it. Someone who is qualified to do that FO job no longer has it, because you took it from him. And how did you do that? By taking out your wallet. Every single slot taken by a PFJ guy is one less slot for folks who are looking for that right hand seat. [/ QUOTE ] Thats not fact. What is backing it up? Purely for example: You need to provide something like how FO jonny lost his job because of PFJ.

August 24th, 2004, 17:20	#59
Windchill Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Mid-Atlantic, KMRB Posts: 1,925	Re: Watching sheep to the slaughter Straight from Gulfstream's website. [ QUOTE ] Log More Than 280 Hours Of Airline Quality Flight Training For Less Than $72 Per Hour [/ QUOTE ] While they say hey you'll get paid to learn to fly w/ an airline, in the end it's still everything you're paying to be there. Brian, are you saying if you had the option of: a) Paying an airline $8/hr to fly for them b) Airline paying you $8/hr to fly for them you would rather choose to pay instead of being paid??? Anyhow, real life example, Colgan Air new-hires pay for their training -- any company that hires you should pay for your training. Does a WalMart employee go to WalMart and pay them $10/hr to learn the job??? I hope not! Hmmmm . . . four pages, eight pages . . . this topic will still make it's way back.

August 24th, 2004, 17:22	#60
Sir_Captain Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 252	Re: Watching sheep to the slaughter Same happens when someone is bumped for any odd reason and someone younger, less experienced and less paid gets the job. Should he feel guilty for stealing? I'm with Matt, you should write a cover for this site with the PFT and actual accounts of occurrences where PFT is bad, not just why you think it's bad . I'm out before you ladies all go and get your panties in a twist again.

August 24th, 2004, 17:25	#61
FalconCapt Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 489	Re: Watching sheep to the slaughter [ QUOTE ] Thats not fact. What is backing it up? Purely for example: You need to provide something like how FO jonny lost his job because of PFJ. [/ QUOTE ] Matt, when PFT was rampant in the industry I am guessing you weren't even riding a 2 wheeler yet (1990-1995)... We are talking from experience, something you (as a self proclaimed "Young Gun of JC" [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cwm27.gif[/img] ) have absolutely none of... Now you can either learn from history and the vast experience that is on this board from the guys who are or have been in the industry or you can be an oblivious ignoramous and continue to walk blindly towards the shiny plane... The choice is yours... If you can't clearly see how PFT is bad, correction, VERY bad for the industry as a whole, then obviously you are not even close to having the whole picture... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] Show me another profession where people actually PAY their employer to work for them... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

August 24th, 2004, 17:26	#62
eeg Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Fo\' Laudydaudy, FL. Posts: 235	Re: Watching sheep to the slaughter [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I tought it costs $8 an hour to fly. Cost me not them. If I was to get paid $8 then no way. Me pay the airline $8 an hour to build time sounds good. Me getting $8 an hour to fly for them doesn't. [/ QUOTE ] How exactly does this work in your world??? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] So you would PAY an airline to fly for them, but if they only wanted to pay you $8/hr you would say no way??? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] You can't seriously be for real??? So you will pay to fly, but you won't fly and get paid??? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] Please go find some other career field... You are in the wrong place... You are obviously not able to grasp the concept of gainful employment in this field... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/argue.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] I'm thinking here and just thinking that he meant it in a way of instead of paying let's say $75 for a cessna 152 that he would rather pay $8 and hour for a better aircraft. That's why he said in one of his earlier post " What's the catch" Brian, Am I right here? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

August 24th, 2004, 17:29	#63
CaptainMatt Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Space Shuttle Posts: 620	Re: Watching sheep to the slaughter [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Thats not fact. What is backing it up? Purely for example: You need to provide something like how FO jonny lost his job because of PFJ. [/ QUOTE ] Matt, when PFT was rampant in the industry I am guessing you weren't even riding a 2 wheeler yet (1990-1995)... We are talking from experience, something you (as a self proclaimed "Young Gun of JC" [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cwm27.gif[/img] ) have absolutely none of... Now you can either learn from history and the vast experience that is on this board from the guys who are or have been in the industry or you can be an oblivious ignoramous and continue to walk blindly towards the shiny plane... The choice is yours... If you can't clearly see how PFT is bad, correction, VERY bad for the industry as a whole, then obviously you are not even close to having the whole picture... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] Show me another profession where people actually PAY their employer to work for them... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Whoa Dude... You need to calm down. Never did I say PFT was the way to go man! Your putting words into my mouth. You say there is this History, Lets see it big man. Specific Examples! Thats all I'm asking. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] PS: I'm older than you think FALCONCapt. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/spin2.gif[/img]

August 24th, 2004, 17:29	#64
TheWife Old Skool Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Utah Posts: 4,180	Re: Watching sheep to the slaughter [ QUOTE ] So you would PAY an airline to fly for them, but if they only wanted to pay you $8/hr you would say no way??? [/ QUOTE ] I don't think he is saying he would pay an airline to fly for them, if you go back and re-read it, it sounds like you can fly the plane, as in RENT it, for $8 an hour, sounds like you pay $20-30K whatever for your training and then rent the 1900 for $8 an hour. That's what I thought it sounded like and I even know better. [ QUOTE ] Please go find some other career field... You are in the wrong place... You are obviously not able to grasp the concept of gainful employment in this field... [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] You don't freaking get it, do you? I rescind my apology to you. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Brian, stop being stupid [/ QUOTE ] I think you guys are being WAY WAY mean. Seriously. If you don't have the patience to explain it w/o being insulting then throw your hands up and stay out of the thread. Whether a person "gets it" or doesn't, they are still human, and do not deserve to be repeatedly insulted. Imagine if JC exsisted back when you were teenagers, I am sure a lot of you would be on the receiving end of these insult-a-thons. Like Matt said, explain some facts, not your emotions. I imagine threads like this really turn off a lot of lurkers. That's one of the reasons my husband doesn't go to message boards.

August 24th, 2004, 17:30	#65
FalconCapt Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 489	Re: Watching sheep to the slaughter [ QUOTE ] I'm thinking here and just thinking that he meant it in a way of instead of paying let's say $75 for a cessna 152 that he would rather pay $8 and hour for a better aircraft. That's why he said in one of his earlier post " What's the catch" Brian, Am I right here? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] The "Catch" is you can't "get to pay" for this "training" until you have enough experience and ratings to ride in their right seat... The "Catch" is that by the time you have these hours and ratings you are qualified enough to go get a job where someone actually PAYS YOU... Not the other way around... Brain, there aren't 25 hour Student Pilots riding in Gulfstreams right seats... they are guys who already have their Commercial, Multi & Instrument ratings... When you are at that point, typically you stop paying for flight time anyhow, because you now have the experience and qualifications to get paid to fly... Is this concept that hard to grasp???? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img]

August 24th, 2004, 17:31	#66
eeg Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Fo\' Laudydaudy, FL. Posts: 235	Re: Watching sheep to the slaughter Now this is getting interesting! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

August 24th, 2004, 17:33	#67
ready2fly Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: DFW Posts: 7,373	Re: Watching sheep to the slaughter Michelle, when a subject is brought up time after time after time after time... and people STILL don't get it... that those on this sight with a bit more life experience/flight experience are trying to stop them from making a HUGE mistake.... adn they still want "proof" (as if the word of someone who has been in the industry for over 10+ years isn't enough), then yes - it may sound a tad "mean", but it's necessary. If one person on here listens, then it's worth it.

August 24th, 2004, 17:34	#69
TheWife Old Skool Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Utah Posts: 4,180	Re: Watching sheep to the slaughter [ QUOTE ] Is this concept that hard to grasp???? [/ QUOTE ] Yes, honestly it can be. So sorry you all have to waste so much time and energy on those stupid people like me and others who don't always understand things right up front. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] Maybe I am just having a hormonal day but holy hell! You guys have a chance to act as mentors, big brothers, inspirations. Way to go at that. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

August 24th, 2004, 17:35	#70
FalconCapt Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 489	Re: Watching sheep to the slaughter [ QUOTE ] PS: I'm older than you think FALCONCapt. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/spin2.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Perhaps now would be a good time to demonstrate that, until you do, pretty much everyone is going to lump you together with the likes of BJ and CC87... So, let me ask you this... If a company can get idiots to pay to fly in the right seat instead of paying a pilot to fly the right seat, which are they going to do??? Now, if they can't find anyone to pay to ride in the right seat, they are then forced to pay a pilot to fly in the right seat... All of the airlines require 2 pilots, so that right seat MUST be filled, if someone is willing to pay to fill it, then that is taking a job away from someone who should be paid to fill it... The concept (I thought) isn't that hard to understand... banghead:

August 24th, 2004, 17:37	#71
TheWife Old Skool Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Utah Posts: 4,180	Re: Watching sheep to the slaughter How is some one supposed to know that it's been brought up time and time and time again and beaten to death until it's too late? I don't go searching for every subject before I post on it just incase it happens to be one that might cause some drama and passion. [ QUOTE ] and people STILL don't get it... that those on this sight with a bit more life experience/flight experience are trying to stop them from making a HUGE mistake.... adn they still want "proof" (as if the word of someone who has been in the industry for over 10+ years isn't enough), then yes - it may sound a tad "mean", but it's necessary. [/ QUOTE ] A more patient and less hostile approach would take this campaign a LOT farther than insults and frustration.

August 24th, 2004, 17:37	#72
RPM Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: LAX Posts: 658	Re: Watching sheep to the slaughter [ QUOTE ] I think someone should write an article and have it posted on the main page of Jetcareers. And then whenever anyone asks about PFT, We can refer them to this article. I think we can get some people that are knowledgable enough to sit down and write a "What is PFT?" piece. Maybe some of the more senior guys could write it. Just a suggestion... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] I agree, this once a week PFT/PFJ session is getting really old! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

August 24th, 2004, 17:38	#74
CaptainMatt Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Space Shuttle Posts: 620	Re: Watching sheep to the slaughter [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] PS: I'm older than you think FALCONCapt. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/spin2.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Perhaps now would be a good time to demonstrate that, until you do, pretty much everyone is going to lump you together with the likes of BJ and CC87... So, let me ask you this... If a company can get idiots to pay to fly in the right seat instead of paying a pilot to fly the right seat, which are they going to do??? Now, if they can't find anyone to pay to ride in the right seat, they are then forced to pay a pilot to fly in the right seat... All of the airlines require 2 pilots, so that right seat MUST be filled, if someone is willing to pay to fill it, then that is taking a job away from someone who should be paid to fill it... The concept (I thought) isn't that hard to understand... If I could figure out how to draw you a picture of this concept I would, but I don't think it would help... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] You obviously Haven't read anything I wrote in this Thread! Just because I asked for some evidence and someone to write an article on it Does not mean I don't understand what PFT is. Did I once make some remark saying that I didn't know what PFT was? Did I? My whole purpose of asking for evidence was to help others, Like Brian that don't understand the concept. I'm not sure why this set alarms off to you that you had to shove it in my face that I'm some kind of Idiot. I think you need to calm down a bit.

August 24th, 2004, 17:41	#75
Cosmo1999 Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 247	Re: Watching sheep to the slaughter Please for the love of god make it stop!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] Unfortunately Brian has the potential of being another sheep to the slaughter. Wasting exorbiant amounts of money when he doesnt have to. Dude if your patient and wait it out you wont have to pay to build time after you get your ratings. The time will come to you, you will get paid something worthwhile hopefully. Thats the whole point you seem to be missing you dont have to keep wasting all that money and stealing jobs while your at it. It builds character while your at it. Ok I think the original intent of this was to make fun of those FOs at Gulfstream who are naieve enough to fork over the check. You can see it in their eyes in the webcam lol. Thats what starry eyed pilot syndrome looks like. Boy I think we could all talk about this forever.

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