Socal Mid-Air - Picture

I_Money · August 23rd, 2004, 23:37

Here in Socal - check out the photo......

http://kcal9.com/localnews/localnews...236142919.html

FalconCapt · August 23rd, 2004, 23:38

What is with all the mid-airs lately???

mtsu_av8er · August 23rd, 2004, 23:43

They call the Citabria a kit plane....am I missing something?

CaptainMatt · August 23rd, 2004, 23:44

I drove by yesterday, earlier in the day before it happened. It's too bad, so close to home. Does anyone know what each of the planes was doing? Like was one banner towing or something. I know that a plane was flying along the beach earlier in the day towing a banner.

Anybody hear? I'm going to be going to santa paula tomorrow so maybe I can find out some info.

I_Money · August 23rd, 2004, 23:48

[ QUOTE ]
The call the Citabria a kit plane....am I missing something?

[/ QUOTE ]

One was a kit plane, the other a Citabria.

mtsu_av8er · August 23rd, 2004, 23:50

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The call the Citabria a kit plane....am I missing something?

[/ QUOTE ]

One was a kit plane, the other a Citabria.

[/ QUOTE ]

The article said :

[ QUOTE ]

Authorities say a Thorp-18 based in Torrance and carrying two people and a Citabria 7ECA, which was kept in Santa Paula, collided about 5:30 p.m. Sunday roughly 100 yards off El Matador State Beach.

Both are single-engine kit planes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just pointing out that either they don't know what they're saying, or they're trying to drum up panic.....

Or maybe there is a Citabria Kit Plane....

FalconCapt · August 23rd, 2004, 23:56

[ QUOTE ]
Just pointing out that either they don't know what they're saying, or they're trying to drum up panic.....

Or maybe there is a Citabria Kit Plane....

[/ QUOTE ]

The media is notorious for screwing up facts whenever it pertains to Aviation...

mtsu_av8er · August 24th, 2004, 00:00

It's shameful.

MikeD · August 24th, 2004, 00:04

Don't you guys ever again question the credibility of the news media!

....Then again, I suppose there would have to be credibility there to question in the first place. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Windchill · August 24th, 2004, 00:12

[ QUOTE ]
The media is notorious for screwing up facts whenever it pertains to Aviation...

[/ QUOTE ]

The media is notorious for screwing up facts whenever it pertains to ANYTHING!

Such a tragedy, really hate to see these happen. It worries me at times, because in the daytime I have trouble picking up a/c, even when ATC gives me a position for them.

One thing I like about night flying is it's a bit easier to pick up traffic.

MikeD · August 24th, 2004, 00:16

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The media is notorious for screwing up facts whenever it pertains to Aviation...

[/ QUOTE ]

The media is notorious for screwing up facts whenever it pertains to ANYTHING!

Such a tragedy, really hate to see these happen. It worries me at times, because in the daytime I have trouble picking up a/c, even when ATC gives me a position for them.

One thing I like about night flying is it's a bit easier to pick up traffic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Following the midair collision of a BE-99 and a Rockwell 114 near San Lusi Obispo in the 1980s, a local news station was at the local airport as their background. They reported that the Rockwell crew was on an instrument training flight, and that the crew was practicing "flying blind". The camera then pans over to a parked Mooney and shows it sitting with it's silver sun shades in the window.......all part of the "flying blind" gig.

Dumb blonde reporter. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img]

CaptainChris87 · August 24th, 2004, 01:58

LOL to that one MikeD. by the way I heared on the news that
the one of the flights departed from SNA (Orange County John Wayne), can anyone varify that? or is the article Ian posted 100 percent accurate?

I_Money · August 24th, 2004, 02:07

I have heard the kit planes was out of Torrance, and the other was out of SMO.

Acadia · August 24th, 2004, 07:43

I was almost in an east coast version of that yesterday (Monday). I was about six miles south of my airport on a commercial (part 91) scenic flight and I had just made a call that I was setting up for a 45 for left downwind for the active runway. I made a slight right turn to show my passengers something and flash a 172 or 182 ripped by my left side on a reciprocal course within 20 feet of my altitude and within about 100-150’ of my aircraft.

I am probably the most paranoid pilot out there. I am constantly scanning for traffic, lifting my wings to look above, and making clearing turns. We have lots of aircraft out on scenic flights in this area so you really have to be on the ball looking 100% of the time. Despite my efforts I never saw the potential head on until it was over and based on the other aircrafts flight path I don’t think they saw me. I also like to make plenty of radio calls as I approach the field and I was a little ticked that this aircraft was operating so close to a fairly busy airport and was not even on the frequency (there is no other significant airport for 30 miles).

BTW had I not turned to show the passengers something we probably would not have hit, but we would have met head on with only 20 or so feet of vertical separation. Yikes. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

FalconCapt · August 24th, 2004, 10:10

[ QUOTE ]
I have heard the kit planes was out of Torrance, and the other was out of SMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought they were BOTH kit planes?!?!?! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/insane.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

ready2fly · August 24th, 2004, 11:15

One was a Citabria.

<vicious cyle continued>

MikeD · August 24th, 2004, 12:08

[ QUOTE ]
I was almost in an east coast version of that yesterday (Monday). I was about six miles south of my airport on a commercial (part 91) scenic flight and I had just made a call that I was setting up for a 45 for left downwind for the active runway. I made a slight right turn to show my passengers something and flash a 172 or 182 ripped by my left side on a reciprocal course within 20 feet of my altitude and within about 100-150’ of my aircraft.

I am probably the most paranoid pilot out there. I am constantly scanning for traffic, lifting my wings to look above, and making clearing turns. We have lots of aircraft out on scenic flights in this area so you really have to be on the ball looking 100% of the time. Despite my efforts I never saw the potential head on until it was over and based on the other aircrafts flight path I don’t think they saw me. I also like to make plenty of radio calls as I approach the field and I was a little ticked that this aircraft was operating so close to a fairly busy airport and was not even on the frequency (there is no other significant airport for 30 miles).

BTW had I not turned to show the passengers something we probably would not have hit, but we would have met head on with only 20 or so feet of vertical separation. Yikes. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Occasionally, I'll get my fellow pilots coming back from a mission and complaining about the "Cessna that busted into the MOA". For those guys, I'll have to correct them by re-teaching them that civil aircraft penetrating a MOA is completely legal.....maybe not exceptionally smart....but fully legal, and if everyone is keeping their head on a swivel, it should be reasonably safe too. I'd prefer that civil traffic go under or around MOAs, but here in the west, with the size and dimensions of some MOAs, that isn't always feasible, and I fully understand that. When I'm in the MOA and I see a civil plane, I simply knock-off the maneuvering of my flight, call out the traffic, and immediately altitude-deconflict until the traffic clears or is no longer a factor. Unfortunately we can't talk to them (at least not in this plane, I could in my last plane), or I'd just do the coordination between them and me. But it doesn't bother me. We all co-exist. Same with Alert Areas, same concept.

Now, when I was rolling-in on a target in R-2301E (live with 30mm gun), and I had a Piper PA-46 cross about 1000' under me........then we had a different story that day.

MarineNav · August 24th, 2004, 12:26

Hello,

Is ordnance ever expended in MOA's? I would think not, but I'm no expert.

Thanks,

JR

MikeD · August 24th, 2004, 12:28

[ QUOTE ]
Hello,

Is ordnance ever expended in MOA's? I would think not, but I'm no expert.

Thanks,

JR

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. MOAs are maneuvering airspace only....practice dogfighting, formation work, acro, etc. Restricted Areas are where ord gets expended, as well as Warning areas.

MarineNav · August 24th, 2004, 12:36

Doh! I forgot about the Warning Areas. Thanks.

Regarding Restriced Areas, I recall refueling some Navy fighters over the Tonapah Range back in the 80's (I was observing from the aft passenger door windows of a KC-130R). We were told not to take any pictures. We didn't see anything unusual. Now with hindsight, I'm thinking that the Have Blue project was finishing up &/or the first operational F-117 sqaudron was in the area.

Thanks again,

JR

FalconCapt · August 24th, 2004, 12:49

[ QUOTE ]
I'm thinking that the Have Blue project was finishing up &/or the first operational F-117 sqaudron was in the area.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I remember correctly the Have Blue project was in the very late 70's...

MikeD · August 24th, 2004, 12:56

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm thinking that the Have Blue project was finishing up &/or the first operational F-117 sqaudron was in the area.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I remember correctly the Have Blue project was in the very late 70's...

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right on. Have Blue was two planes, oddly enough the particulars of them still being classified to this day....more so than the current 117. Both eventually crashed in testing, one in 79 and one in 79.

Interesting design concept in that they were first put on the drawing board in 1976. To quote Dick Cantrell, lead of aerodynaimcs Lockheed's Skunk Works at the time, "I don't care what in hell it looks like, I'll get that ugly son-of-a-bitch to fly!"

Interesting thing to consider....if that and the 117 were flying in the 1978+ timeframe, wonder what they've got flying now.......

Minnesota_Flyer · August 24th, 2004, 13:36

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The media is notorious for screwing up facts whenever it pertains to Aviation...

[/ QUOTE ]

The media is notorious for screwing up facts whenever it pertains to ANYTHING!

Such a tragedy, really hate to see these happen. It worries me at times, because in the daytime I have trouble picking up a/c, even when ATC gives me a position for them.

One thing I like about night flying is it's a bit easier to pick up traffic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sadly, it's not just aviation. Everytime I see an article about a subject I know something about, there is always something factually wrong. The problem is that most news articles are written by people who simply don't have enough time to do their job right.

MF

project7 · August 24th, 2004, 16:06

[ QUOTE ]
I have heard the kit planes was out of Torrance, and the other was out of SMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

One was from Torrance, a kit plane carrying a doctor and his girlfriend. The Citabria was from Santa Paula with one guy onboard. Unfortunately, I think it was the blue and white citabria from CP Aviation

SteveC · August 24th, 2004, 16:23

[ QUOTE ]
...Now, when I was rolling-in on a target in R-2301E (live with 30mm gun), and I had a Piper PA-46 cross about 1000' under me........then we had a different story that day.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you told this story yet? If not, I'd sure like to hear it!
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

August 23rd, 2004, 23:37	#1
I_Money Moderator Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Socal Posts: 5,645	Socal Mid-Air - Picture Here in Socal - check out the photo...... http://kcal9.com/localnews/localnews...236142919.html

August 23rd, 2004, 23:38	#2
FalconCapt Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 489	Re: Socal Mid-Air - Picture What is with all the mid-airs lately???

August 23rd, 2004, 23:43	#3
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,403	Re: Socal Mid-Air - Picture They call the Citabria a kit plane....am I missing something?

August 23rd, 2004, 23:44	#4
CaptainMatt Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Space Shuttle Posts: 620	Re: Socal Mid-Air - Picture I drove by yesterday, earlier in the day before it happened. It's too bad, so close to home. Does anyone know what each of the planes was doing? Like was one banner towing or something. I know that a plane was flying along the beach earlier in the day towing a banner. Anybody hear? I'm going to be going to santa paula tomorrow so maybe I can find out some info.

August 23rd, 2004, 23:48	#5
I_Money Moderator Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Socal Posts: 5,645	Re: Socal Mid-Air - Picture [ QUOTE ] The call the Citabria a kit plane....am I missing something? [/ QUOTE ] One was a kit plane, the other a Citabria.

August 23rd, 2004, 23:50	#6
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,403	Re: Socal Mid-Air - Picture [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The call the Citabria a kit plane....am I missing something? [/ QUOTE ] One was a kit plane, the other a Citabria. [/ QUOTE ] The article said : [ QUOTE ] Authorities say a Thorp-18 based in Torrance and carrying two people and a Citabria 7ECA, which was kept in Santa Paula, collided about 5:30 p.m. Sunday roughly 100 yards off El Matador State Beach. Both are single-engine kit planes. [/ QUOTE ] Just pointing out that either they don't know what they're saying, or they're trying to drum up panic..... Or maybe there is a Citabria Kit Plane....

August 23rd, 2004, 23:56	#7
FalconCapt Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 489	Re: Socal Mid-Air - Picture [ QUOTE ] Just pointing out that either they don't know what they're saying, or they're trying to drum up panic..... Or maybe there is a Citabria Kit Plane.... [/ QUOTE ] The media is notorious for screwing up facts whenever it pertains to Aviation...

August 24th, 2004, 00:00	#8
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,403	Re: Socal Mid-Air - Picture It's shameful.

August 24th, 2004, 00:04	#9
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: Socal Mid-Air - Picture Don't you guys ever again question the credibility of the news media! ....Then again, I suppose there would have to be credibility there to question in the first place. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

August 24th, 2004, 00:12	#10
Windchill Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Mid-Atlantic, KMRB Posts: 1,925	Re: Socal Mid-Air - Picture [ QUOTE ] The media is notorious for screwing up facts whenever it pertains to Aviation... [/ QUOTE ] The media is notorious for screwing up facts whenever it pertains to ANYTHING! Such a tragedy, really hate to see these happen. It worries me at times, because in the daytime I have trouble picking up a/c, even when ATC gives me a position for them. One thing I like about night flying is it's a bit easier to pick up traffic.

August 24th, 2004, 00:16	#11
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: Socal Mid-Air - Picture [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The media is notorious for screwing up facts whenever it pertains to Aviation... [/ QUOTE ] The media is notorious for screwing up facts whenever it pertains to ANYTHING! Such a tragedy, really hate to see these happen. It worries me at times, because in the daytime I have trouble picking up a/c, even when ATC gives me a position for them. One thing I like about night flying is it's a bit easier to pick up traffic. [/ QUOTE ] Following the midair collision of a BE-99 and a Rockwell 114 near San Lusi Obispo in the 1980s, a local news station was at the local airport as their background. They reported that the Rockwell crew was on an instrument training flight, and that the crew was practicing "flying blind". The camera then pans over to a parked Mooney and shows it sitting with it's silver sun shades in the window.......all part of the "flying blind" gig. Dumb blonde reporter. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img]

August 24th, 2004, 01:58	#12
CaptainChris87 Old Skool Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,754	Re: Socal Mid-Air - Picture LOL to that one MikeD. by the way I heared on the news that the one of the flights departed from SNA (Orange County John Wayne), can anyone varify that? or is the article Ian posted 100 percent accurate?

August 24th, 2004, 02:07	#13
I_Money Moderator Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Socal Posts: 5,645	Re: Socal Mid-Air - Picture I have heard the kit planes was out of Torrance, and the other was out of SMO.

August 24th, 2004, 07:43	#14
Acadia Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: BHB - Maine Posts: 2,737	Re: Socal Mid-Air - Picture I was almost in an east coast version of that yesterday (Monday). I was about six miles south of my airport on a commercial (part 91) scenic flight and I had just made a call that I was setting up for a 45 for left downwind for the active runway. I made a slight right turn to show my passengers something and flash a 172 or 182 ripped by my left side on a reciprocal course within 20 feet of my altitude and within about 100-150’ of my aircraft. I am probably the most paranoid pilot out there. I am constantly scanning for traffic, lifting my wings to look above, and making clearing turns. We have lots of aircraft out on scenic flights in this area so you really have to be on the ball looking 100% of the time. Despite my efforts I never saw the potential head on until it was over and based on the other aircrafts flight path I don’t think they saw me. I also like to make plenty of radio calls as I approach the field and I was a little ticked that this aircraft was operating so close to a fairly busy airport and was not even on the frequency (there is no other significant airport for 30 miles). BTW had I not turned to show the passengers something we probably would not have hit, but we would have met head on with only 20 or so feet of vertical separation. Yikes. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

August 24th, 2004, 10:10	#15
FalconCapt Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 489	Re: Socal Mid-Air - Picture [ QUOTE ] I have heard the kit planes was out of Torrance, and the other was out of SMO. [/ QUOTE ] I thought they were BOTH kit planes?!?!?! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/insane.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

August 24th, 2004, 11:15	#16
ready2fly Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: DFW Posts: 7,080	Re: Socal Mid-Air - Picture One was a Citabria. <vicious cyle continued>

August 24th, 2004, 12:08	#17
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: Socal Mid-Air - Picture [ QUOTE ] I was almost in an east coast version of that yesterday (Monday). I was about six miles south of my airport on a commercial (part 91) scenic flight and I had just made a call that I was setting up for a 45 for left downwind for the active runway. I made a slight right turn to show my passengers something and flash a 172 or 182 ripped by my left side on a reciprocal course within 20 feet of my altitude and within about 100-150’ of my aircraft. I am probably the most paranoid pilot out there. I am constantly scanning for traffic, lifting my wings to look above, and making clearing turns. We have lots of aircraft out on scenic flights in this area so you really have to be on the ball looking 100% of the time. Despite my efforts I never saw the potential head on until it was over and based on the other aircrafts flight path I don’t think they saw me. I also like to make plenty of radio calls as I approach the field and I was a little ticked that this aircraft was operating so close to a fairly busy airport and was not even on the frequency (there is no other significant airport for 30 miles). BTW had I not turned to show the passengers something we probably would not have hit, but we would have met head on with only 20 or so feet of vertical separation. Yikes. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Occasionally, I'll get my fellow pilots coming back from a mission and complaining about the "Cessna that busted into the MOA". For those guys, I'll have to correct them by re-teaching them that civil aircraft penetrating a MOA is completely legal.....maybe not exceptionally smart....but fully legal, and if everyone is keeping their head on a swivel, it should be reasonably safe too. I'd prefer that civil traffic go under or around MOAs, but here in the west, with the size and dimensions of some MOAs, that isn't always feasible, and I fully understand that. When I'm in the MOA and I see a civil plane, I simply knock-off the maneuvering of my flight, call out the traffic, and immediately altitude-deconflict until the traffic clears or is no longer a factor. Unfortunately we can't talk to them (at least not in this plane, I could in my last plane), or I'd just do the coordination between them and me. But it doesn't bother me. We all co-exist. Same with Alert Areas, same concept. Now, when I was rolling-in on a target in R-2301E (live with 30mm gun), and I had a Piper PA-46 cross about 1000' under me........then we had a different story that day.

August 24th, 2004, 12:26	#18
MarineNav Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Santa Clara, CA Posts: 301	Re: Socal Mid-Air - Picture Hello, Is ordnance ever expended in MOA's? I would think not, but I'm no expert. Thanks, JR

August 24th, 2004, 12:28	#19
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: Socal Mid-Air - Picture [ QUOTE ] Hello, Is ordnance ever expended in MOA's? I would think not, but I'm no expert. Thanks, JR [/ QUOTE ] Nope. MOAs are maneuvering airspace only....practice dogfighting, formation work, acro, etc. Restricted Areas are where ord gets expended, as well as Warning areas.

August 24th, 2004, 12:36	#20
MarineNav Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Santa Clara, CA Posts: 301	Re: Socal Mid-Air - Picture Doh! I forgot about the Warning Areas. Thanks. Regarding Restriced Areas, I recall refueling some Navy fighters over the Tonapah Range back in the 80's (I was observing from the aft passenger door windows of a KC-130R). We were told not to take any pictures. We didn't see anything unusual. Now with hindsight, I'm thinking that the Have Blue project was finishing up &/or the first operational F-117 sqaudron was in the area. Thanks again, JR

August 24th, 2004, 12:49	#21
FalconCapt Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 489	Re: Socal Mid-Air - Picture [ QUOTE ] I'm thinking that the Have Blue project was finishing up &/or the first operational F-117 sqaudron was in the area. [/ QUOTE ] If I remember correctly the Have Blue project was in the very late 70's...

August 24th, 2004, 12:56	#22
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: Socal Mid-Air - Picture [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I'm thinking that the Have Blue project was finishing up &/or the first operational F-117 sqaudron was in the area. [/ QUOTE ] If I remember correctly the Have Blue project was in the very late 70's... [/ QUOTE ] You're right on. Have Blue was two planes, oddly enough the particulars of them still being classified to this day....more so than the current 117. Both eventually crashed in testing, one in 79 and one in 79. Interesting design concept in that they were first put on the drawing board in 1976. To quote Dick Cantrell, lead of aerodynaimcs Lockheed's Skunk Works at the time, "I don't care what in hell it looks like, I'll get that ugly son-of-a-bitch to fly!" Interesting thing to consider....if that and the 117 were flying in the 1978+ timeframe, wonder what they've got flying now.......

August 24th, 2004, 13:36	#23
Minnesota_Flyer Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: the Twin Cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul Posts: 1,895	Re: Socal Mid-Air - Picture [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The media is notorious for screwing up facts whenever it pertains to Aviation... [/ QUOTE ] The media is notorious for screwing up facts whenever it pertains to ANYTHING! Such a tragedy, really hate to see these happen. It worries me at times, because in the daytime I have trouble picking up a/c, even when ATC gives me a position for them. One thing I like about night flying is it's a bit easier to pick up traffic. [/ QUOTE ] Sadly, it's not just aviation. Everytime I see an article about a subject I know something about, there is always something factually wrong. The problem is that most news articles are written by people who simply don't have enough time to do their job right. MF

August 24th, 2004, 16:06	#24
project7 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 430	Re: Socal Mid-Air - Picture [ QUOTE ] I have heard the kit planes was out of Torrance, and the other was out of SMO. [/ QUOTE ] One was from Torrance, a kit plane carrying a doctor and his girlfriend. The Citabria was from Santa Paula with one guy onboard. Unfortunately, I think it was the blue and white citabria from CP Aviation

August 24th, 2004, 16:23	#25
SteveC Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: GRR Posts: 8,362	Re: Socal Mid-Air - Picture [ QUOTE ] ...Now, when I was rolling-in on a target in R-2301E (live with 30mm gun), and I had a Piper PA-46 cross about 1000' under me........then we had a different story that day. [/ QUOTE ] Have you told this story yet? If not, I'd sure like to hear it! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

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