What's wrong in this picture ?

pilot602 · July 28th, 2004, 14:03

So, what's wrong with this picture?

(This is the brand, new Mooney panel forthe Ovation 2 DX)

kellwolf · July 28th, 2004, 14:25

Other than crosswing landings in the right seat would REALLY suck, I don't notice any problems.

July 28th, 2004, 14:29

IMC conditions.

kellwolf · July 28th, 2004, 14:32

Well, if you're gonna say IMC conditions, might as well go with no pilots while you're at it.....

mtsu_av8er · July 28th, 2004, 14:32

All the standby instruments are wayyyy over on the right...

That would suck unless you're the CFII!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

pilot602 · July 28th, 2004, 14:35

[ QUOTE ]
All the standby instruments are wayyyy over on the right...

That would suck unless you're the CFII!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Ding Ding Ding!

WTF is Mooney thinking? This panel is almost designed to induce spatial disorientation if/when the main MFDs go dead. And, btw, anyone knowthe FAA certification requirement for length of full operation of these panels if the electrical source is lost (i.e. how long do they have to run on batteries)?

Mel Carnahan (former governor of MO) died in a crash when they lost the gyroscopic instruments on the left side and the pilot (his son) was trying to fly off the AI on the right side of the aircraft (from the left seat), it was night, it was IMC and he got disoriented and .. BAM. One dead governor.

Seriously, WTF.

MikeD · July 28th, 2004, 14:43

LOL. In the F-117 (arguably one of the worst ergonomically-designed planes, IMO) the standby AI is on the right side of the front panel, while the standby altimeter and airspeed indicator (as well as the standby ADI and standby HSI) are all located in a cluster on the extreme lower left of the front panel.

kellwolf · July 28th, 2004, 14:45

[ QUOTE ]
Mel Carnahan (former governor of MO) died in a crash when they lost the gyroscopic instruments on the left side and the pilot (his son) was trying to fly off the AI on the right side of the aircraft (from the left seat), it was night, it was IMC and he got disoriented and .. BAM. One dead governor.

[/ QUOTE ]

This court case REALLY hit a sore spot with me, especially since it involved so many negligent lawsuits against the manufacturers over something the NTSB concluded was pilot error. The family just could not accept the fact that their beloved son screwed up, so it must be a fault in the design. The people that made the vaccum pumps are now out of that business, and the NTSB even specifically said in their report that BOTH pumps were working. It was the AI that failed. So, b/c of ignorance this company lost millions of dollars, and is now near bankruptcy. Don't get me wrong, it's sad and tragic that they lost family members. However, what was this guys THINKING? He ignored all of his instrument training and decided to LEAN over to read instruments instead of relying on his backups like the turn coordinator and compass.

Now, I have to agree with you here. What is Mooney thinking? At least Cirrus put the backups in between the MFDs.

pilot602 · July 28th, 2004, 14:46

You'd think after 100 years aircraft corporations would at least ask a pilot or two their opinions on panel layout ... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]

albatross · July 28th, 2004, 14:58

I can't see any of the writing well enough to tell- but is it possible that they flipped the negative? A reverse image, in other words.

sopdan · July 28th, 2004, 15:10

[ QUOTE ]
I can't see any of the writing well enough to tell- but is it possible that they flipped the negative? A reverse image, in other words.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everything else seems to be in the right place (throttle, mixture, circuit breakers, etc.) . [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

I was also going to say that if you were in IMC, your airspeed is 0 kts, which would also be a problem. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

pilot602 · July 28th, 2004, 15:14

No it's not reversed ... I first saw this in a magazine ad and it was larger. The standby's are on the right side.

albatross · July 28th, 2004, 15:18

Gotcha. That's what I get for opening my mouth, keyboard, whatever, before thinking.

Citationkid · July 28th, 2004, 16:04

[ QUOTE ]

WTF is Mooney thinking? This panel is almost designed to induce spatial disorientation if/when the main MFDs go dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe both screens can work as an PFD. Where else would you like them to put them?

pilot602 · July 28th, 2004, 16:14

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

WTF is Mooney thinking? This panel is almost designed to induce spatial disorientation if/when the main MFDs go dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe both screens can work as an PFD. Where else would you like them to put them?

[/ QUOTE ]

We're talking about the standby instruments (ASI, AI and Altimeter) on the FAR right of the panel.

I'm fully aware you can make the MFDs display whatever you like but if you lose electrical (the FARs only require the MFDs to run at full capacity for 30 minutes) you will lose both panels thus relegating you to the standby instruments "conveniently" located on the other side of the aircraft. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Bandit_Driver · July 28th, 2004, 16:15

Where do I start. The Mooney has more avionics in it than most of the airliners flying today. I don't see it being that big of a problem. Any proficient instrumet pilot should be able to fly it safely off the standby's. The panel is missing a back up VOR/LOC. It would suck to lose the panel IMC and not be able to shoot the approach.

As far as the MFD's go at least they get backup power. If you were to lose the GEN"s in a Saab the Batts cannot power the displays and you are down to the small standbys...
Not fun but flyable.

I_Money · July 28th, 2004, 16:16

Not really impressed with this post - we all know Moonies are so narrow it will make no difference.

pilot602 · July 28th, 2004, 16:22

[ QUOTE ]
Any proficient instrumet pilot should be able to fly it safely off the standby's.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Carnahan's son was a "proficient' instrument pilot (well at least far more proficient thatn the averag GA pilot) and he's dead.

2) If it comes down to the point the standby insturments are needed "all those fancy avionics" are no longer operating and thus pointless.

I do agree with you about the standby VOR/LOC indicator. Non of these new GA "glass panel" layouts include this which is dumb IMHO.

All this comes down to is a little foresight. You'll notice there are switches in the upper left area of the pannel. Those could very easily be relocated and the standbys placed there.

And Iian ... have you ever shot an approach from the right seat using instruments on the left side? Not incredibly difficult but not incredibly fun either - now mic in the stress of a real partial panel situation, bad weather and thing can go badly very quickly.

chrisesp · July 28th, 2004, 20:05

Kinda like that Swiss air flight off of Nova Scotia! That was an MD11 with the instruments on the center! Of course it was IMC in the cockpit as well.

RiddlePilot · July 28th, 2004, 20:43

I really don't see a huge deal with this. Flying instruments from the opposite seat isn't really that difficult, just takes a little bit of getting used to. Also, seeing as how a pilot can keep positive control using the backup attitude indicator, a proficient instrument pilot should be able to keep it in the air long enough to find VMC and land safely. By the way...how are ya gonna have a backup CDI if you lost your electrical system? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I'm pretty much repeating what was already said by a couple previous posters, but I'm just putting my opinion in the pool. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Bandit_Driver · July 28th, 2004, 21:00

Whoops, I almost forgot the Mooney has an ALT and not a GEN. Mooney could install an emergency battery and associated switch that could power a backup com and nav.

You can't always reach VMC. i.e. you don't notice the failed ALT and drain your batts. The nearest VMC is farther away than you have fuel for...
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bandit.gif[/img]
Sorry I was thinking along the lines of GEN's....i.e. in my aircraft if we have a dual gen failure we are on backup power and all the MFD's are offline. Only giving us NAV 1, COM 1 and the peanut sized backups ADI, ALT, and ASI

mtsu_av8er · July 28th, 2004, 21:05

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't see a huge deal with this. Flying instruments from the opposite seat isn't really that difficult, just takes a little bit of getting used to.

[/ QUOTE ]

For those of us that have learned to fly from the right seat, it's not that big of a deal. Now, imagine that you're a 110-hour private pilot, instrument rated and you've never flown from the right seat. It's your third flight in IMC and you lose your MFD.

Now, how long should it take to get used to it?

asl · July 28th, 2004, 21:14

Honestly, all they had to do was move the right hand screen to be directly in front of the right seat, and put those standby insruments in the middle, thereby avoidong any problems. Doesn't anyone employ Ergonomics Engineers anymore!!!!!

NJA_Capt · July 28th, 2004, 21:29

Like another poster said, the Mooney is only 3' wide, not like it's a B52. As Citation kid mentioned, where else would you put the standbys in the Mooney? There isn't any more open panel space. I would be more concerned at the lack of a TC or roll indexer. These are included in most PFDs. This leads me to believe that at least one screen will run on Emer backup.

Up until a few years ago NO single engine airplane had backup anything. If the vac pump failed you had an elec TC and a wet compass. None of this extra "sissy" stuff like dual vac pumps standby instruments and flat compass faces. And man continued to fly IFR none the less. And all without a GPS....Oh the humanity [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

There are backup batteries for the MFDs. With product liability laws these days, no lawyer is going to sign off on a design unless there are backups to the backups.

By the way, the radios are in the MFDs too.

RiddlePilot · July 28th, 2004, 21:32

[ QUOTE ]
For those of us that have learned to fly from the right seat, it's not that big of a deal. Now, imagine that you're a 110-hour private pilot, instrument rated and you've never flown from the right seat. It's your third flight in IMC and you lose your MFD.

Now, how long should it take to get used to it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. Could very well become an issue there.

July 28th, 2004, 14:03	#1
pilot602 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: who haa Posts: 3,752	What\'s wrong in this picture ? So, what's wrong with this picture? (This is the brand, new Mooney panel forthe Ovation 2 DX)

July 28th, 2004, 14:25	#2
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,230	Re: What\'s wrong in this picture ? Other than crosswing landings in the right seat would REALLY suck, I don't notice any problems.

July 28th, 2004, 14:29	#3
Lurker Posts: n/a	Re: What\'s wrong in this picture ? IMC conditions.

July 28th, 2004, 14:32	#4
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,230	Re: What\'s wrong in this picture ? Well, if you're gonna say IMC conditions, might as well go with no pilots while you're at it.....

July 28th, 2004, 14:32	#5
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,590	Re: What\'s wrong in this picture ? All the standby instruments are wayyyy over on the right... That would suck unless you're the CFII!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

July 28th, 2004, 14:35	#6
pilot602 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: who haa Posts: 3,752	Re: What\'s wrong in this picture ? [ QUOTE ] All the standby instruments are wayyyy over on the right... That would suck unless you're the CFII!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Ding Ding Ding! WTF is Mooney thinking? This panel is almost designed to induce spatial disorientation if/when the main MFDs go dead. And, btw, anyone knowthe FAA certification requirement for length of full operation of these panels if the electrical source is lost (i.e. how long do they have to run on batteries)? Mel Carnahan (former governor of MO) died in a crash when they lost the gyroscopic instruments on the left side and the pilot (his son) was trying to fly off the AI on the right side of the aircraft (from the left seat), it was night, it was IMC and he got disoriented and .. BAM. One dead governor. Seriously, WTF.

July 28th, 2004, 14:43	#7
MikeD Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pinal Airpark Posts: 6,897	Re: What\'s wrong in this picture ? LOL. In the F-117 (arguably one of the worst ergonomically-designed planes, IMO) the standby AI is on the right side of the front panel, while the standby altimeter and airspeed indicator (as well as the standby ADI and standby HSI) are all located in a cluster on the extreme lower left of the front panel.

July 28th, 2004, 14:45	#8
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,230	Re: What\'s wrong in this picture ? [ QUOTE ] Mel Carnahan (former governor of MO) died in a crash when they lost the gyroscopic instruments on the left side and the pilot (his son) was trying to fly off the AI on the right side of the aircraft (from the left seat), it was night, it was IMC and he got disoriented and .. BAM. One dead governor. [/ QUOTE ] This court case REALLY hit a sore spot with me, especially since it involved so many negligent lawsuits against the manufacturers over something the NTSB concluded was pilot error. The family just could not accept the fact that their beloved son screwed up, so it must be a fault in the design. The people that made the vaccum pumps are now out of that business, and the NTSB even specifically said in their report that BOTH pumps were working. It was the AI that failed. So, b/c of ignorance this company lost millions of dollars, and is now near bankruptcy. Don't get me wrong, it's sad and tragic that they lost family members. However, what was this guys THINKING? He ignored all of his instrument training and decided to LEAN over to read instruments instead of relying on his backups like the turn coordinator and compass. Now, I have to agree with you here. What is Mooney thinking? At least Cirrus put the backups in between the MFDs.

July 28th, 2004, 14:46	#9
pilot602 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: who haa Posts: 3,752	Re: What\'s wrong in this picture ? You'd think after 100 years aircraft corporations would at least ask a pilot or two their opinions on panel layout ... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]

July 28th, 2004, 14:58	#10
albatross Junior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 80	Re: What\'s wrong in this picture ? I can't see any of the writing well enough to tell- but is it possible that they flipped the negative? A reverse image, in other words.

July 28th, 2004, 15:10	#11
sopdan Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 671	Re: What\'s wrong in this picture ? [ QUOTE ] I can't see any of the writing well enough to tell- but is it possible that they flipped the negative? A reverse image, in other words. [/ QUOTE ] Everything else seems to be in the right place (throttle, mixture, circuit breakers, etc.) . [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] I was also going to say that if you were in IMC, your airspeed is 0 kts, which would also be a problem. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

July 28th, 2004, 15:14	#12
pilot602 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: who haa Posts: 3,752	Re: What\'s wrong in this picture ? No it's not reversed ... I first saw this in a magazine ad and it was larger. The standby's are on the right side.

July 28th, 2004, 15:18	#13
albatross Junior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 80	Re: What\'s wrong in this picture ? Gotcha. That's what I get for opening my mouth, keyboard, whatever, before thinking.

July 28th, 2004, 16:04	#14
Citationkid Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Delaware Posts: 1,416 Blog Entries: 5	Re: What\'s wrong in this picture ? [ QUOTE ] WTF is Mooney thinking? This panel is almost designed to induce spatial disorientation if/when the main MFDs go dead. [/ QUOTE ] I believe both screens can work as an PFD. Where else would you like them to put them?

July 28th, 2004, 16:14	#15
pilot602 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: who haa Posts: 3,752	Re: What\'s wrong in this picture ? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] WTF is Mooney thinking? This panel is almost designed to induce spatial disorientation if/when the main MFDs go dead. [/ QUOTE ] I believe both screens can work as an PFD. Where else would you like them to put them? [/ QUOTE ] We're talking about the standby instruments (ASI, AI and Altimeter) on the FAR right of the panel. I'm fully aware you can make the MFDs display whatever you like but if you lose electrical (the FARs only require the MFDs to run at full capacity for 30 minutes) you will lose both panels thus relegating you to the standby instruments "conveniently" located on the other side of the aircraft. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]

July 28th, 2004, 16:15	#16
Bandit_Driver Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DTW Posts: 1,872	Re: What\'s wrong in this picture ? Where do I start. The Mooney has more avionics in it than most of the airliners flying today. I don't see it being that big of a problem. Any proficient instrumet pilot should be able to fly it safely off the standby's. The panel is missing a back up VOR/LOC. It would suck to lose the panel IMC and not be able to shoot the approach. As far as the MFD's go at least they get backup power. If you were to lose the GEN"s in a Saab the Batts cannot power the displays and you are down to the small standbys... Not fun but flyable.

July 28th, 2004, 16:16	#17
I_Money Moderator Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Socal Posts: 5,691	Re: What\'s wrong in this picture ? Not really impressed with this post - we all know Moonies are so narrow it will make no difference.

July 28th, 2004, 16:22	#18
pilot602 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: who haa Posts: 3,752	Re: What\'s wrong in this picture ? [ QUOTE ] Any proficient instrumet pilot should be able to fly it safely off the standby's. [/ QUOTE ] 1) Carnahan's son was a "proficient' instrument pilot (well at least far more proficient thatn the averag GA pilot) and he's dead. 2) If it comes down to the point the standby insturments are needed "all those fancy avionics" are no longer operating and thus pointless. I do agree with you about the standby VOR/LOC indicator. Non of these new GA "glass panel" layouts include this which is dumb IMHO. All this comes down to is a little foresight. You'll notice there are switches in the upper left area of the pannel. Those could very easily be relocated and the standbys placed there. And Iian ... have you ever shot an approach from the right seat using instruments on the left side? Not incredibly difficult but not incredibly fun either - now mic in the stress of a real partial panel situation, bad weather and thing can go badly very quickly.

July 28th, 2004, 20:05	#19
chrisesp Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 394	Re: What\'s wrong in this picture ? Kinda like that Swiss air flight off of Nova Scotia! That was an MD11 with the instruments on the center! Of course it was IMC in the cockpit as well.

July 28th, 2004, 20:43	#20
RiddlePilot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 928	Re: What\'s wrong in this picture ? I really don't see a huge deal with this. Flying instruments from the opposite seat isn't really that difficult, just takes a little bit of getting used to. Also, seeing as how a pilot can keep positive control using the backup attitude indicator, a proficient instrument pilot should be able to keep it in the air long enough to find VMC and land safely. By the way...how are ya gonna have a backup CDI if you lost your electrical system? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] I'm pretty much repeating what was already said by a couple previous posters, but I'm just putting my opinion in the pool. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

July 28th, 2004, 21:00	#21
Bandit_Driver Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DTW Posts: 1,872	Re: What\'s wrong in this picture ? Whoops, I almost forgot the Mooney has an ALT and not a GEN. Mooney could install an emergency battery and associated switch that could power a backup com and nav. You can't always reach VMC. i.e. you don't notice the failed ALT and drain your batts. The nearest VMC is farther away than you have fuel for... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bandit.gif[/img] Sorry I was thinking along the lines of GEN's....i.e. in my aircraft if we have a dual gen failure we are on backup power and all the MFD's are offline. Only giving us NAV 1, COM 1 and the peanut sized backups ADI, ALT, and ASI

July 28th, 2004, 21:05	#22
mtsu_av8er Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Utopia Posts: 12,590	Re: What\'s wrong in this picture ? [ QUOTE ] I really don't see a huge deal with this. Flying instruments from the opposite seat isn't really that difficult, just takes a little bit of getting used to. [/ QUOTE ] For those of us that have learned to fly from the right seat, it's not that big of a deal. Now, imagine that you're a 110-hour private pilot, instrument rated and you've never flown from the right seat. It's your third flight in IMC and you lose your MFD. Now, how long should it take to get used to it?

July 28th, 2004, 21:14	#23
asl Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Dartford,UK (near London) Posts: 248	Re: What\'s wrong in this picture ? Honestly, all they had to do was move the right hand screen to be directly in front of the right seat, and put those standby insruments in the middle, thereby avoidong any problems. Doesn't anyone employ Ergonomics Engineers anymore!!!!!

July 28th, 2004, 21:29	#24
NJA_Capt Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Low Earth Orbit Posts: 1,389	Re: What\'s wrong in this picture ? Like another poster said, the Mooney is only 3' wide, not like it's a B52. As Citation kid mentioned, where else would you put the standbys in the Mooney? There isn't any more open panel space. I would be more concerned at the lack of a TC or roll indexer. These are included in most PFDs. This leads me to believe that at least one screen will run on Emer backup. Up until a few years ago NO single engine airplane had backup anything. If the vac pump failed you had an elec TC and a wet compass. None of this extra "sissy" stuff like dual vac pumps standby instruments and flat compass faces. And man continued to fly IFR none the less. And all without a GPS....Oh the humanity [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] There are backup batteries for the MFDs. With product liability laws these days, no lawyer is going to sign off on a design unless there are backups to the backups. By the way, the radios are in the MFDs too.

July 28th, 2004, 21:32	#25
RiddlePilot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 928	Re: What\'s wrong in this picture ? [ QUOTE ] For those of us that have learned to fly from the right seat, it's not that big of a deal. Now, imagine that you're a 110-hour private pilot, instrument rated and you've never flown from the right seat. It's your third flight in IMC and you lose your MFD. Now, how long should it take to get used to it? [/ QUOTE ] Good point. Could very well become an issue there.

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