Icing in the air...

[c172captain]

Scenario: If I'm flying into a cloud with visible moisture(obviously) and I am at an altitude below the freezing point (formula for icing) and I start to accumulate icing, a lot of it... what will happen? I know this might be a stupid question to ask, maybe even an obvious one, but to me, it isn't clicking. Will I stall and lose altitude to the point where the ice melts away and allows me to fly normally? Or will I crash and burn like so many other pilots. Just curious. I do not know much about the actual affects of icing in mid air (other than it disrupts the flow of smooth air over the wings, etc) but is it something to panic over if I see it?

Thanks

[alloyicon]

Here is a good interactive Aircraft Icing Training Course from the NASA website.

http://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/courses.html

I don't recall how I came across this link. It may well have been from a fellow JC'er on this forum.

It's worth saving as a favorite link as it has as a ton of info & will take a few hours to view the entire course.

[Baronman]

Originally Posted by c172captain

Scenario: If I'm flying into a cloud with visible moisture(obviously) and I am at an altitude below the freezing point (formula for icing) and I start to accumulate icing, a lot of it... what will happen? I know this might be a stupid question to ask, maybe even an obvious one, but to me, it isn't clicking. Will I stall and lose altitude to the point where the ice melts away and allows me to fly normally? Or will I crash and burn like so many other pilots. Just curious. I do not know much about the actual affects of icing in mid air (other than it disrupts the flow of smooth air over the wings, etc) but is it something to panic over if I see it?

Thanks

You shouldn't panic if you get into icing, provided it's not severe icing you should have time to clearly think out a plan. Usually the plan is to change altitude by at least 3-4 thousand feet or if that isn't an option, to turn around.

You will start to notice ice build up on the wings and on a light twin it will build up on the windscreen area. You'll find that you can maintain altitude, but that your speed will start to decrease (if you don't add power) and that you'll need an increased angle of attack to maintain that altitude.

So at this point you are flying slower, the ice is still sticking and you're increasing angle of attack thus exposing previously unexposed to the airflow surface of the wing. The situation will continue to deteriorate if you don't intervene.

The ice causes a disruption in the airflow and changes the shape of the leading edge of the wing and elevator/rudder. The wing starts to loose lift and you must add Angle of attack to compensate, of course adding AOA will cause a decrease in speed if you don't add power. So drag is increased, and lets not forget that the ice has weight...so now you must add AOA to compensate for added weight....

The scenario you gave of stalling and the ice melting is not realistic. If you got to the point of stalling due to ice build up, you've waited too long and are probably seconds from disaster. It won't melt in time, the ice may start to come off with a change in temp but at this point you're in bad shape.

So again, don't panic but realize you must take some action to exit the icing.

[klondiked]

I agree with Baronman, but if I was going IFR in a Cessna 172, I wouldn't fly into possible icing conditions unless I KNEW I could descend into warmer air and lose the ice.

To describe it simply, ice makes you slow down, and raises your stall speed some unknown amount. Either descend or stall, it's as easy as that. I wouldn't consider trying to climb through it in a 172. In an airplane with more excess power, climbing would be just fine.

[texas_pilot]

On the C208, there's 2 schools of thought about adding flaps in icing as well. I decided I will never add flaps while in icing conditions even as I beat a hasty retreat to warmer air.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by texas_pilot

On the C208, there's 2 schools of thought about adding flaps in icing as well. I decided I will never add flaps while in icing conditions even as I beat a hasty retreat to warmer air.

Yeah, I can't see adding 10 degrees of flaps so I can climb 15 knots slower.......I'll land and deice first. Hopefully the season is close to, if not completely over.

-mini

[ackeight]

Originally Posted by minitour

Yeah, I can't see adding 10 degrees of flaps so I can climb 15 knots slower.......I'll land and deice first. Hopefully the season is close to, if not completely over.

-mini

Sometimes not always an option.

[Queboat]

Originally Posted by c172captain

Scenario: If I'm flying into a cloud with visible moisture(obviously) and I am at an altitude below the freezing point (formula for icing) and I start to accumulate icing, a lot of it... what will happen? I know this might be a stupid question to ask, maybe even an obvious one, but to me, it isn't clicking. Will I stall and lose altitude to the point where the ice melts away and allows me to fly normally? Or will I crash and burn like so many other pilots. Just curious. I do not know much about the actual affects of icing in mid air (other than it disrupts the flow of smooth air over the wings, etc) but is it something to panic over if I see it?

Thanks

you turn the anti-ice on and get back to reading the newspaper.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by ackeight

Sometimes not always an option.

It is when I fly the caravan....

-mini

[mikecweb]

Originally Posted by minitour

It is when I fly the caravan....

-mini

Where is that airport in the middle of Lake Michigan?

[WalterSobchak]

Originally Posted by mikecweb

Where is that airport in the middle of Lake Michigan?

Word!

When you don't have an airport for 80 miles with an ILS in any direction and everything is 200 & 1/2 and you are picking up an inch a minute. Good luck.

[ljg]

SJX is an option if you're in the vicinity but most guys just set it down in the drink and make Section C of the newspaper.

[ackeight]

Originally Posted by ljg

SJX is an option if you're in the vicinity but most guys just set it down in the drink and make Section C of the newspaper.

haha BEAVER ISLAND! Seems a bit out of the way. Looks closer to just fly across the lake if you haven't already turned into a human popsicle.

[ljg]

I used to go up to Beaver Island as a kid. Consistently crappy WX there, but it's pretty.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by mikecweb

Where is that airport in the middle of Lake Michigan?

I don't accept clearances beyond power-off gliding distance in single engine airplanes, so that's not an issue for me. If you can glide there, you can fly there.

If there's no airport for 80 miles and everything is 200-1/2, to me that means I didn't do my preflight prep good enough and I shouldn't even be there. Sometimes you just have to tell ATC what routing you can/will take v. asking.

-mini

[murphfly]

Originally Posted by minitour

I don't accept clearances beyond power-off gliding distance in single engine airplanes, so that's not an issue for me. If you can glide there, you can fly there.

If there's no airport for 80 miles and everything is 200-1/2, to me that means I didn't do my preflight prep good enough and I shouldn't even be there. Sometimes you just have to tell ATC what routing you can/will take v. asking.

-mini

WOW!! You must be one of the guys that flies over the lake at 10K or goes around it...but for what reason?? How do you do this job with those kind of fears? Being beyond power off gliding distance in SE airplanes is the last thing going through my head while I'm flying, too many other important things...and I fly the caravan every single night over the mountains. Gotta watch out for the crazy mountain people!!

Which by the way how do you like the caravan? besides it having an uncomfortable seat...

[minitour]

Originally Posted by murphfly

WOW!! You must be one of the guys that flies over the lake at 10K or goes around it...but for what reason??

Yep...or higher, but sucking on O2 sucks.

Depending on what the best option is, I may ask for a route starting "around" the lake and when I get high enough then I'll cross. Depends on what the winds/weather is. I have no problem taking the caravan into the 20s if it's the best thing for the operation and have done so in the past.

Obviously I don't want to run too late, but I also realize that late is better than never and not ops nor the customer has to deal with ditching if something goes wrong...only me.

How do you do this job with those kind of fears? Being beyond power off gliding distance in SE airplanes is the last thing going through my head while I'm flying, too many other important things

I'm not sure what you're asking or saying. With what kind of fears? I do y best to get the work from A to B as early or as close to on-time as possible within the bounds of legality and safety. To me, there's nothing on my mind more important than safety of flight.

Realizing that my chances of surviving in the lake are far less than surviving in some field or a highway or a runway is not a fear, IMO. The airplane has limitations, some are stated in the AFM and some are just limitations. One of those limitations is that it's a single engine airplane and I treat it as such.

Make no mistake, I have no fear of swimming or water...quite a decent swimmer actually.

One thing I do have is a respect for hypothermia. The lakes never really get warm enough to survive in for very long and in the winter you've got what 5 minutes? That's not only outside my comfort level, but something I'd consider "stupid". I won't condemn pilots that go across the lake at 3,000 because obviously that's within their comfort zone and they've considered the factors for themselves. I've had just enough problems in single engine airplanes to make me realize it isn't something I'm willing to do or negotiate on.

[/quote]...and I fly the caravan every single night over the mountains. Gotta watch out for the crazy mountain people!![/quote]

I've done some of that flying the van around the mountains out west. I'd rather do that than go over the lake and a lot of times that run can be done VFR so you can save some time going direct and see/avoid everything. Always have a landing site picked out just in case. The roads out there are excellent choices. Plus, I watch the rivers. Water flows down hill...which is good to know in single engine airplanes.

Which by the way how do you like the caravan? besides it having an uncomfortable seat...

I think it would be a kick-@$$ airplane for day VFR operations....like flying jumpers. It's got some capabilities but some limitations too. Like I said, I treat it like a single engine airplane. For me that means not flying it IMC when I don't have to and staying over land (or at least gliding distance) at all times. One thing it's taught me is to have a good command of the word "unable".

It isn't as bad as I thought it would be (and I'm not afraid to admit that), but I'm still not 100% crazy about it.

-mini

[ackeight]

You make it sound like we lose an engine every night....... The PT6A series has an In Flight Shutdown rate of 1/every 100K flight hours. I like those odds. Unfortunatly Airnet seems to be on the short end of the stick in that department.

*edit* JFYI all other PT6 engines have an IFSR of 1 per 250K hours.

[mikecweb]

Originally Posted by minitour

It's got some capabilities but some limitations too. Like I said, I treat it like a single engine airplane. For me that means not flying it IMC when I don't have to and staying over land (or at least gliding distance) at all times. One thing it's taught me is to have a good command of the word "unable".

It isn't as bad as I thought it would be (and I'm not afraid to admit that), but I'm still not 100% crazy about it.

-mini

You realize you get away with that #### because you're a floater. I'll leave it at that.

[BajtheJino]

Originally Posted by minitour

I don't accept clearances beyond power-off gliding distance in single engine airplanes, so that's not an issue for me. If you can glide there, you can fly there.

If there's no airport for 80 miles and everything is 200-1/2, to me that means I didn't do my preflight prep good enough and I shouldn't even be there. Sometimes you just have to tell ATC what routing you can/will take v. asking.

-mini

So no Key West to Cancun for you huh?

[minitour]

Originally Posted by mikecweb

You realize you get away with that #### because you're a floater. I'll leave it at that.

I wouldn't go single engine over water if I wasn't a floater either. It's not some badge of honor like you're making it out to be. I'll leave it at that.

Originally Posted by BajtheJino

So no Key West to Cancun for you huh?

haha not quite

-mini

[minitour]

Originally Posted by ackeight

You make it sound like we lose an engine every night....... The PT6A series has an In Flight Shutdown rate of 1/every 100K flight hours. I like those odds. Unfortunatly Airnet seems to be on the short end of the stick in that department.

*edit* JFYI all other PT6 engines have an IFSR of 1 per 250K hours.

It isn't about how "bulletproof" the PT6A is (I've heard that a million times) or how infrequently the engine quits. It's about minimizing risk. To me, a professional pilot minimizes risk as much as possible. That's how you increase safety, which is absolutely the number one priority on my flight deck.

-mini

[mninstructor]

Best way to minimize risk, stay on the ground.

[USMCmech]

Safety is measured on an emotional level, and has nothing to do with facts, good or bad. It's like saying something is beautiful, or ugly.

Some pilots are OK with single engine ops over water, some are not. That dosen't make either one a good or a bad pilot. It only shows that one is more comfortable with higher risk than the other. Some pilots fly very low level all day every day, including under powerlines while dusting crops. Some refuse to fly in anything that dosen't have twin turbines inder a IFR flight plan.

I fly a Caravan night IFR all the time, and wouldn't have any problem flying over warm water with the apropriate survival gear. Cold water in the great lakes is another story, that exceeds my risk threshold.

Dose that mean that Mini is a safe pilot, and that I am a reckless one? No, it simpley shows that we have different thresholds of risk.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by USMCmech

Dose that mean that Mini is a safe pilot, and that I am a reckless one? No, it simpley shows that we have different thresholds of risk.

I agree....

Ya crazy cowboy

-mini