Airnet SICs

[Ian J]

Here is my personal opinion about low-time pilots wanting to get hired as SICs at Airnet:

Unless you have 900-1000 hours, don't do it. It's not worth it.

I've talked to some low-time SICs (and these guys weren't the lowest time - they were about 500-700 hours) and the all agree SICing ain't cool for that long of a time. Figure about 100 hours a month and they are looking at 6-8 months sitting in the right seat of a Baron at $7 and change an hour.

Seriously, unless you have an extreme personal situation that prevents it, CFI until you get 1000-ish hours or so. You'll bring a lot more to the company, and you'll save yourself some pain.

Sitting in the right seat of a C172 CFI-ing, you're the guy in charge, making decisions, and are improving your craft. Sitting right seat in the Baron, you are not in charge, and the company has no PNF duties for you in that seat, unlike in a large turboprop or a jet where you are actually needed to do something. The PIC will usually swap legs with you, that's it. A good PIC will develop PNF duties so everyone isn't completely bored, but in the end it's up to him. If he wants you to sit there for 8 hours and not touch a thing, he can. (Extreme example - I haven't heard of anyone doing that.)

On the other hand, a wise Boston-based Lear SIC advised me 50 or so hours of SICing is very beneficial. He was right.

Please, come to Airnet - we need good pilots and it's a good company. But look out for yourself, too.

[mikecweb]

Originally Posted by Ian J

Here is my personal opinion about low-time pilots wanting to get hired as SICs at Airnet:

Unless you have 900-1000 hours, don't do it. It's not worth it.

I've talked to some low-time SICs (and these guys weren't the lowest time - they were about 500-700 hours) and the all agree SICing ain't cool for that long of a time. Figure about 100 hours a month and they are looking at 6-8 months sitting in the right seat of a Baron at $7 and change an hour.

Seriously, unless you have an extreme personal situation that prevents it, CFI until you get 1000-ish hours or so. You'll bring a lot more to the company, and you'll save yourself some pain.

Sitting in the right seat of a C172 CFI-ing, you're the guy in charge, making decisions, and are improving your craft. Sitting right seat in the Baron, you are not in charge, and the company has no PNF duties for you in that seat, unlike in a large turboprop or a jet where you are actually needed to do something. The PIC will usually swap legs with you, that's it. A good PIC will develop PNF duties so everyone isn't completely bored, but in the end it's up to him. If he wants you to sit there for 8 hours and not touch a thing, he can. (Extreme example - I haven't heard of anyone doing that.)

On the other hand, a wise Boston-based Lear SIC advised me 50 or so hours of SICing is very beneficial. He was right.

Please, come to Airnet - we need good pilots and it's a good company. But look out for yourself, too.

That guy is pretty freakin smart.

One thing I'd like to add as far as PNF duties go. I really would just limit it to possibly talking on the radio. If anything. You are trained as a single pilot PIC. When you get on the line you are going to be a single pilot PIC. You don't want to develop habits of having someone else put the cowl flaps up or someone putting the gear down for you.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by mikecweb

That guy is pretty freakin smart.

One thing I'd like to add as far as PNF duties go. I really would just limit it to possibly talking on the radio. If anything. You are trained as a single pilot PIC. When you get on the line you are going to be a single pilot PIC. You don't want to develop habits of having someone else put the cowl flaps up or someone putting the gear down for you.

That's pretty much what I meant... radios.

[ackeight]

Originally Posted by mikecweb

That guy is pretty freakin smart.

One thing I'd like to add as far as PNF duties go. I really would just limit it to possibly talking on the radio. If anything. You are trained as a single pilot PIC. When you get on the line you are going to be a single pilot PIC. You don't want to develop habits of having someone else put the cowl flaps up or someone putting the gear down for you.

And Bingo was his name-0

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by Ian J

I've talked to some low-time SICs (and these guys weren't the lowest time - they were about 500-700 hours)

What's the lowest time SIC you've seen?

[minitour]

Apparently someone w/ ~300 hours starts Monday. Check it out at aviationinterviews.

[KLB]

Originally Posted by Ian J

Sitting right seat in the Baron, you are not in charge, and the company has no PNF duties for you in that seat, unlike in a large turboprop or a jet where you are actually needed to do something. The PIC will usually swap legs with you, that's it. A good PIC will develop PNF duties so everyone isn't completely bored, but in the end it's up to him. If he wants you to sit there for 8 hours and not touch a thing, he can. (Extreme example - I haven't heard of anyone doing that.)

Wow. I didn't know that. Airnets "distant cousin on the west coast" trains its pilots to fly all its planes two crew. Even the chieftan and the 99 trainees go through a small amount of two crew training. I guess it's in place to give the "commercial fo's" (eaglejet guys) a sense of self worth.

[falconvalley]

Another thing to note is low time SICs have a bad record in PIC upgrade after months of SICing. Airnet's training program is geared for pilot's who are proficient.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by falconvalley

Another thing to note is low time SICs have a bad record in PIC upgrade after months of SICing. Airnet's training program is geared for pilot's who are proficient.

If they pass SIC "initial", why aren't they proficient when they get to "upgrade"? Sounds like the PICs aren't doing their job of helping the SICs learn how to be a PIC.

-mini

[mikecweb]

Originally Posted by minitour

If they pass SIC "initial", why aren't they proficient when they get to "upgrade"? Sounds like the PICs aren't doing their job of helping the SICs learn how to be a PIC.

-mini

First of all, that isn't their job. Their job is to be a PIC. It's the SIC's priviledge to pick up anything along the way. Not being a jerk about it but this really isn't a dual given thing. And if you approach it as such it's going to be awful quiet in that baron. There isn't going to be oh here fly slow for the first 100 hours just to get a feel for thing. If you can't cut the mustard right away you'll be watching. Deadlines aren't going to be forgiven because a SIC is on board.
Secondly I've never heard of this problem. The only negative thing that could happen is if their PIC doesn't fly the profiles and then when they get back to LCK for their upgrade ride they didn't study.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by mikecweb

First of all, that isn't their job. Their job is to be a PIC. It's the SIC's priviledge to pick up anything along the way. Not being a jerk about it but this really isn't a dual given thing. And if you approach it as such it's going to be awful quiet in that baron. There isn't going to be oh here fly slow for the first 100 hours just to get a feel for thing. If you can't cut the mustard right away you'll be watching. Deadlines aren't going to be forgiven because a SIC is on board.
Secondly I've never heard of this problem. The only negative thing that could happen is if their PIC doesn't fly the profiles and then when they get back to LCK for their upgrade ride they didn't study.

I never said it was a "dual given" situation, but if you're a PIC and you have an SIC, part of your job is to help the SIC learn how to be a good PIC. The SIC doesn't have to have any "privileges". They passed the interview and the training, they earned the right to be there.

Does that mean letting him/her fly if it's going to blow "deadlines"? No.

Does it mean letting him/her go crazy on headings/altitudes? No. (etc., etc.)

If you can't do those "mechanical" things (making the airplane do what you need it to do), you probably shouldn't have passed SIC training to begin with.

I don't see how helping a "low time" (that term, to me is relative...I still consider myself low time at almost 3k hours...so take it FWIW) pilot gain some good PIC experience and learn some decision making skills isn't part of a PIC's job.

...and I don't see how looking at it like that would make it quiet in the baron. If I can learn something every flight, I don't know why I can't help someone else learn something every flight.

-mini

[ljg]

I SIC'd for 180 hours, and that is plenty enough time to learn how things work. The upgrade ride may be difficult because after flying for many hours from the right side, it is a transition to get back to the left. They do give you the grace of a reintiation flight to get back into the swing of things (thank goodness). After that, checkride, and the training department's standards on checkrides don't budge. I was the only person in my class who had less than 1050 hours going to training, which is the magic number to avoid going through a second PIC upgrade checkride. I'd recommend coming to training with 1050 if you can because you can avoid the aforementioned upgrade ride and probably get a higher seniority number than your classmates (seniority #'s based on TT, and currently people are coming to class with less than 1050).

I liked Airnet's SIC program a lot. It is a great way to experience approaches flown down to low weather, flying aroudn thunderstorms and ice, and observing life on the line. But I think realistically you can learn all of this in the first 20-25 hours.

[mikecweb]

Originally Posted by minitour

I never said it was a "dual given" situation, but if you're a PIC and you have an SIC, part of your job is to help the SIC learn how to be a good PIC. The SIC doesn't have to have any "privileges". They passed the interview and the training, they earned the right to be there.

Does that mean letting him/her fly if it's going to blow "deadlines"? No.

Does it mean letting him/her go crazy on headings/altitudes? No. (etc., etc.)

If you can't do those "mechanical" things (making the airplane do what you need it to do), you probably shouldn't have passed SIC training to begin with.

I don't see how helping a "low time" (that term, to me is relative...I still consider myself low time at almost 3k hours...so take it FWIW) pilot gain some good PIC experience and learn some decision making skills isn't part of a PIC's job.

...and I don't see how looking at it like that would make it quiet in the baron. If I can learn something every flight, I don't know why I can't help someone else learn something every flight.

-mini

I'm sorry you can't see that.
The fact remains that this is a single pilot enviornment. The SIC is a "rider" placed there by the company. It is no where in a PICs job description to train SICs.
If you're a PIC here and you wanna help the SICs out that's your choice. There are currently three of my former SICs currently posting on this forum. You can ask them and I'm sure they'd tell you that I not only made their life a living hell but they probably learned a thing or two also. Especially how great of an airplane the Caravan is.
My point is, if an SIC fails upgrade training, the PIC will not get a phone call, an email, or even a oh by the way. It's not their "job" to make sure the SIC becomes a PIC. Their job is to make sure the run gets completed safely and on time each and every night. So if an SIC fails ugrade training it wasn't anyones fault except for their own.

[murphfly]

Originally Posted by minitour

I never said it was a "dual given" situation, but if you're a PIC and you have an SIC, part of your job is to help the SIC learn how to be a good PIC. The SIC doesn't have to have any "privileges". They passed the interview and the training, they earned the right to be there.

Does that mean letting him/her fly if it's going to blow "deadlines"? No.

Does it mean letting him/her go crazy on headings/altitudes? No. (etc., etc.)

If you can't do those "mechanical" things (making the airplane do what you need it to do), you probably shouldn't have passed SIC training to begin with.

I don't see how helping a "low time" (that term, to me is relative...I still consider myself low time at almost 3k hours...so take it FWIW) pilot gain some good PIC experience and learn some decision making skills isn't part of a PIC's job.

...and I don't see how looking at it like that would make it quiet in the baron. If I can learn something every flight, I don't know why I can't help someone else learn something every flight.

-mini

Why do people want to argue with a current Airnet pilot about what it's like to have an SIC when they have no clue what our operation is like?

Although it is really unspoken the SIC picks up on the techniques the
PIC uses to get the job done. The PIC isn't going to intervene while the SIC is flying unless safety or deadlines are compromised. The PIC may give tips but he expects you can do the job if you passed a checkride. I just think that you're attitude towards the PIC is all wrong. Don't expect him/her to help you out, just appreciate when they do. I got a lot out of the 100 hrs of SICing with Mikecweb b/c I was courteous and we got along. I dislike when an SIC thinks it's your job to help them learn to fly the line.

I know this sounds rude and I don't want people to get the wrong idea about Airnet pilots, but if you respect the PICs and come out the airplane with a great attitude you'll have a ball and learn a lot.

Of course none of this applies to minitour b/c you'll have PIC mins and you'll be out on the line the day after your PIC checkride with zero line experience. Probably not even an IOE flight b/c Airnet needs pilots. Good luck in training. When's your class date?

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by minitour

I don't see how helping a "low time" (that term, to me is relative...I still consider myself low time at almost 3k hours...so take it FWIW) pilot gain some good PIC experience and learn some decision making skills isn't part of a PIC's job.

That's the thing - Airnet does not have a separate training program for SICs. They are trained right along with the PICs. The idea is once they pass training they are 100% able to fly the line on their own - they just lack the regulatory requirement to do so while carrying work on board.

In short, technically the SICs should have the same PIC/ decision making abilities as their 1200 hour counterparts.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by murphfly

Why do people want to argue with a current Airnet pilot about what it's like to have an SIC when they have no clue what our operation is like?

Although it is really unspoken the SIC picks up on the techniques the
PIC uses to get the job done. The PIC isn't going to intervene while the SIC is flying unless safety or deadlines are compromised. The PIC may give tips but he expects you can do the job if you passed a checkride. I just think that you're attitude towards the PIC is all wrong. Don't expect him/her to help you out, just appreciate when they do. I got a lot out of the 100 hrs of SICing with Mikecweb b/c I was courteous and we got along. I dislike when an SIC thinks it's your job to help them learn to fly the line.

I know this sounds rude and I don't want people to get the wrong idea about Airnet pilots, but if you respect the PICs and come out the airplane with a great attitude you'll have a ball and learn a lot.

Of course none of this applies to minitour b/c you'll have PIC mins and you'll be out on the line the day after your PIC checkride with zero line experience. Probably not even an IOE flight b/c Airnet needs pilots. Good luck in training. When's your class date?

I'm not trying to "argue" about anything. I'm just trying to point out a different view on what I think a good captain does for their FO.

Flying is flying, whether it's at a single pilot operator that tosses an SIC my way or if it's in a strictly 2 pilot crew environment. It's called CRM. Having had a bit of bad and a bit less good crew experience, I want to make sure that if I end up with an SIC (and I'm not sure how they "assign" them) I'm doing everything in my power to show him/her the "correct" way to operate a crew.
Believe it or not, though it isn't written down anywhere and in the "job description", part of what a good captain will do is teach their FO how to become a good captain. That doesn't mean you're being a CFI up front...it's more of a "leading by example" thing. That means flying the profiles, talking to the FO after his/her leg and critiquing each other (in a constructive way, it doesn't have to be confrontational).

Sure, you could brief the takeoff as, "Let's see...my name's on the paperwork and yours isn't...sit there, be quiet and don't touch anything", and no one is going to say boo if the FO fails upgrade training. Afterall, it is, in the end his or her responsibility to ensure that they are following company procedures. That being said, as a PIC, I feel like you have a responsibility to the FO, but more-so to the company (who already dropped $$$ to train said FO and doesn't want to have to hire someone new to come in and train and get to the line). You should be flying the profiles and making safe, conservative, positive decisions anyway.

That's what I mean by "doing your job". You aren't a CFI, but that doesn't mean you aren't teaching.

...if that makes any sense. You'll have to forgive me if it doesn't...I've been flying and now I'm all hopped up on a nice DayQuil/NyQuil cocktail. mmmmmmmm

Originally Posted by Ian J

That's the thing - Airnet does not have a separate training program for SICs. They are trained right along with the PICs. The idea is once they pass training they are 100% able to fly the line on their own - they just lack the regulatory requirement to do so while carrying work on board.

In short, technically the SICs should have the same PIC/ decision making abilities as their 1200 hour counterparts.

Are you saying that in order to pass a practical test, you'd be demonstrating the same decision making abilities as someone with (potentially) 900 more hours of experience?

I agree that they should...even if it was separate SIC training, but I'd have a hard time thinking that at 300-600 hours I had anywhere near the decision making abilities that I had at 1000. Same thing there, looking back at 1000 hours, I had nowhere near the experience necessary to do some of the things I was doing. Hopefully when I've got 10,000 hours, I'll look back and think "man...I must have been some kinda cowboy at 3,000 hours to be doing that crazy stuff!" Experience is our friend.

-mini

[mikecweb]

You still aren't recognizing the fact that it isn't a Captain/FO relationship in the cockpit. There is no crew. It's single pilot. They are there to build time however they see fit and that is all. TRUST me I know a lil about this.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by mikecweb

You still aren't recognizing the fact that it isn't a Captain/FO relationship in the cockpit. There is no crew. It's single pilot. They are there to build time however they see fit and that is all. TRUST me I know a lil about this.

Are they authorized to be there in your ops specs?

-mini

[Zephyr]

Originally Posted by minitour

Are they authorized to be there in your ops specs?

-mini

Yes, they are. What do you think would benefit a prop SIC more: learning new multi-crew habits that will be of no use (in the context of flying props at AirNet) once they are PIC qualified, or practicing single pilot operations that will be the same as they will be using once they are PIC qualified? Multi-crew CRM has its place, but that place is not when the job you will be having is a single-pilot operation.

Now I'm not saying the PIC shouldn't mentor the SIC if time allows for it, but that should be the extent of the relationship. I don't see a benefit to multi-crew CRM in the Baron.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by Zephyr

Yes, they are. What do you think would benefit a prop SIC more: learning new multi-crew habits that will be of no use (in the context of flying props at AirNet) once they are PIC qualified, or practicing single pilot operations that will be the same as they will be using once they are PIC qualified? Multi-crew CRM has its place, but that place is not when the job you will be having is a single-pilot operation.

Now I'm not saying the PIC shouldn't mentor the SIC if time allows for it, but that should be the extent of the relationship. I don't see a benefit to multi-crew CRM in the Baron.

I can't disagree with that.

-mini

[Flysher]

Anyone coming to Airnet to fly single pilot is gonna be sorely disappointed anymore in my opinion. That is of course unless you bid a caravan or chieftain run. Otherwise your pretty much gonna be "crewing" a baron for your time. I floated for a year, and about 99% of my time was single pilot. A good portion of that time was spent in the van and 'ho. I've had my own baron run for 6 months now and spent MAYBE a month total flying it by myself, MAYBE.

Don't get me wrong, I like the SIC program but only to an extent. Hell I did it myself for a bit. But the guys coming in with 500 TT I just feel plain bad for. Like someone else said, theres only so much to learn in the right seat of a baron. Your time would be much better spent running pipelines or CFIing or even just going to the regionals. Thats a real crew environment, not a "well today we dont have an intercom, brakes on your side, or a duel yoke, so see ya at our destination!!"

Then again if the 500 hour guys stopped applying I think we would be screwed at this point, my SIC now didn't have anyone PIC qualified in his class.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Flysher

Anyone coming to Airnet to fly single pilot is gonna be sorely disappointed anymore in my opinion. That is of course unless you bid a caravan or chieftain run. Otherwise your pretty much gonna be "crewing" a baron for your time.

That's location dependent, I think. I run into a lot of Baron drivers every night and only one has an SIC.

Originally Posted by Flysher

Thats a real crew environment, not a "well today we dont have an intercom, brakes on your side, or a duel yoke, so see ya at our destination!!"

I forgot about this point. Many of our Barons are as described above. The SIC can't talk or taxi, and to fly the PIC has to throw the single yoke over.

[Ian J]

And I don't want people to think we are throwing our SICs to the wolves with our tough "sink or swim" talk. They do get "taught" things. An example is, you aren't taught a visual approach profile during training. I'm sure all PICs show the new guys their techniques. As an SIC I learned a whole bunch by asking questions and watching. My PICs certainly had no problem showing me he ropes. Most do guys have little experience with tough weather, and I'm sure our PICs impart that knowledge.

So yeah, it's not like we slap our SICs, throw them in the right seat, and say shut up till we get there.

However, here there is no takeoff briefing or approach briefing - the guy flying does all that to himself. It would be retarded for the PNF to do the flaps or make call outs or read the checklist - it's a single pilot Baron!!

[PanJet]

Question for you guys: I have a friend who's considering Airnet quite seriously, and he'll have 1200 before he applies, but he's no where near the XC requirement for 135. He's only got like 250 or less hours of XC for some reason. Do you guys ever see guys come in there that have the total time but lack the XC, night, or otherwise?

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by PanJet

Question for you guys: I have a friend who's considering Airnet quite seriously, and he'll have 1200 before he applies, but he's no where near the XC requirement for 135. He's only got like 250 or less hours of XC for some reason. Do you guys ever see guys come in there that have the total time but lack the XC, night, or otherwise?

135 xc is not the same.