how strict is freight flying?

[butt]

I'm trying to get a feel for how 135 cargo flying is like. Do you get to pick the route? If the weather is nice, can you opt to go the flight VFR? Lets say your route takes you over the town where you grew up in. If you were to decide to do a few 360's over the town to try to spot your house, will something like this get you fired? At a regional, this would get you fired in an instant. Are you given more freedom as a 135 cargo pilot? Obviously, assume that doing something like this causes no adverse safety violations. Do they just give you the plane loaded up, tell you the destination, then it's up to you to do the rest? Or is it just as strict as the airlines? Right now as a CFI, I can pretty much do whatever I want. If me and my student want to circle around a cow patch and watch the cows, we sure as hell can. There is no one to stop us. I have a cross country tomorrow, which we planned specifically so we can fly over and see this certain lake, which is supposed to have good water skiing (we are both interested in waterskiing). I KNOW this kind of freedom doesn't exist at an airline (which is partly why I'm not interested in working at an airline), but what about places like Airnet and AMF?

[falconvalley]

Look at it this way...if you were paying someone to paint your house, would you want them using the paint to do some personal art projects with your paint while you're paying them? Now imagine paying 100 people to paint houses and they all do that. Imagine the money you're paying them and they waste it on personal projects. That's your money.

[subpilot]

Your being paid to get the job done as efficently as possible. Doing 360's over your hometown is not what your employer is paying you to do. You can sightsee on your own time.

[butt]

Originally Posted by falconvalley

Look at it this way...if you were paying someone to paint your house, would you want them using the paint to do some personal art projects with your paint while you're paying them? Now imagine paying 100 people to paint houses and they all do that. Imagine the money you're paying them and they waste it on personal projects. That's your money.

OK i get the point, but I'm not talking about going 100 miles out of your way or anything like that. Maybe "doing a few 360's" would be a little excess... The reason I asked, is because I know an Airnet guy who told us that at night you can get away with more. He went on to explain how he would practice emergency descents by descending from 30,000ft in the Lear, down to 3,000 in like 120 seconds. He seemed to characterize cargo flying as more "free". Is this correct?

[mikecweb]

Most of the time your deadlines will not allow for this type of activity. Once you are flying commercial ops, fun is a byproduct of the flying not the purpose. The reason why I believe freight flying is more fun: YOU FLY THE PLANE. You don't get to watch and fly when the captain says. If you wanna do a tight visual you can. It gives you alot of freedom in that sense. This is also a trap. Flying by yourself is very dangerous if you let it because no one is making sure you don't fool around. You must be very disciplined to fly single pilot.

[DE727UPS]

Well....I think 135 freight is more relaxed.

We were encouraged to fly VFR whenever possible to save time.

A few 360's....nobody's gonna notice. I once knew a guy who flew Beech 18's out of Spokane. He was such a valued employee that they let him take the plane home, empty, for the weekends, rather than strand him in Missoula. Heck, I know an Amflight guy with a run into Grand Coulee, WA. They don't even HAVE an IFR approach there. Can't imagine how he manages to find the place all the time.

At some point, if you are doing things non-standard in a Learjet, it crosses the line into "screwing around". Which is what got PCL3701 into trouble. So, you gotta draw the line somewhere. I don't do anything in a freight 767 I wouldn't do in a Delta 767. At the same time, I think 135 freight in a light twin is a different story and has more leeway. You just have to know where to draw the line. I'll tell you that we don't "practice emergency descents" for fun where I work.

[falconvalley]

Originally Posted by butt

OK i get the point, but I'm not talking about going 100 miles out of your way or anything like that. Maybe "doing a few 360's" would be a little excess... The reason I asked, is because I know an Airnet guy who told us that at night you can get away with more. He went on to explain how he would practice emergency descents by descending from 30,000ft in the Lear, down to 3,000 in like 120 seconds. He seemed to characterize cargo flying as more "free". Is this correct?

Sure, but understand that it's still a job, like the others said. If you don't have a basic grasp of discretion you will find yourself consistently in trouble for breaking the rules when you thought you were just bending them. Flying freight isn't closer to a free-for-all, it's just a job with very little supervision. The main difference between flying freight and flying pax for me is how much less abrupt I am on the controls. I handfly (and I do ALOT of handflying) like I'm communicating to the passengers that whatever air we fly through, I'm going to make this flight as smooooooth as possible. That's just me. When I flew freight, I just didn't care about that or being configured 5 miles out. I still was careful though. Whatever job it is, there's no big deal in asking for your own headings and pilot's discretion. If you play your cards right, a trip over the house might be right in line from where you are granted your request and the airport.

[PanJet]

Originally Posted by butt

I KNOW this kind of freedom doesn't exist at an airline (which is partly why I'm not interested in working at an airline), but what about places like Airnet and AMF?

Sounds to me like you'd be most suited in a Part 91 corporate gig. However, I don't know if I fully support Part 91 corporate stuff. Highly unstructured compared to 135 or 121. There are no checkrides, very few limitations on block times, and you could take off from an airport without even being able to see your wingtips in fog. It's a little to loose if you ask me. Heck, if someone really wanted to let you, they could throw you in the left seat of a King Air 200 after two or three flights so long as you're CMEL with the proper endorsements.

Now as far as freight flying goes, I believe you can use more tricks than in the 121 world. I personally know some former freight flyers (and I know there's lots of former and current dawg's on this forum) who've told of experiences of getting into the tiny little VFR airports. They made use of every class of airspace (including G) to every sense of the regs. Shoot an approach into a nearby airport, cancel and go special 500 ft. off the deck for 5 miles into a little VFR airport in a Beech 1900. Or shoot an approach into an airport 20 miles away and go VFR through class G up the coast for 20 miles and drop it into a tiny little VFR strip.

Quite honestly, I'm very intrigued by the freight world, and I tend to like to do a lot of stuff on my own, so I can't wait to try out the 135 cargo world, but it's not something to take lightly, and like the other guys said, business is business. Screwing around at $500/hour operating cost (for some of the smaller planes) probably wouldn't sit well with any employer, airline or not.

[JEP]

Originally Posted by butt

OK i get the point, but I'm not talking about going 100 miles out of your way or anything like that. Maybe "doing a few 360's" would be a little excess... The reason I asked, is because I know an Airnet guy who told us that at night you can get away with more. He went on to explain how he would practice emergency descents by descending from 30,000ft in the Lear, down to 3,000 in like 120 seconds. He seemed to characterize cargo flying as more "free". Is this correct?

Yeak, O.K. I also have 2nd hand knowledge of someone at Airnet that did some of that very 'screwing around' and ended causing some structural damage to the a/c, not to mention the damage to his flying career. Dumb, Dumb, Dumb.....

NTSB Identification: CHI07CA058.
The docket is stored in the Docket Management System (DMS). Please contact Records Management Division
Nonscheduled 14 CFR Part 135: Air Taxi & Commuter

Accident occurred Wednesday, January 10, 2007 in Columbus, OH
Probable Cause Approval Date: 3/26/2007
Aircraft: Learjet 35A, registration: N40AN
Injuries: 2 Uninjured.
The airplane was substantially damaged during an in-flight recovery after the captain attempted an intentional aileron roll maneuver during cruise flight and lost control. The cargo flight was being operated at night under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 135 at the time of the accident. The captain reported the airplane was "functioning normally" prior to the intentional aileron roll maneuver. The captain stated that the "intentional roll maneuver got out of control" while descending through flight level 200. The captain reported that the airplane "over sped" and experienced "excessive G-loads" during the subsequent recovery. The copilot reported that the roll maneuver initiated by the captain resulted in a "nose-down unusual attitude" and a "high speed dive." Inspection of the airplane showed substantial damage to the left wing and elevator assembly.


The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:

The pilot's failure to maintain aircraft control during an inflight maneuver which resulted in the design stress limits of the airplane being exceeded. A factor was the excessive airspeed encountered during recovery.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?...07CA058&rpt=fa

[mtsu_av8er]

With the schedule I have to keep, if I have to do a 360 on final, I'll behind!

[mikecweb]

That's a culture we are definetly trying to change if it even exist at Airnet. Freight Dawgs have a bad reputation as it is from the shady operations out there, the last thing we need are lear jets getting bent.
For those that are considering Airnet or those that even hold an opinion of our company, please know that the 40AN incident is a black eye that no one at Airnet is proud of and everyone at Airnet takes near and dear to there heart. The perception that we are "cowboys" and "maniacs" is not something we strive for. When everyone goes to there next company after their tenure here they definetly don't want their former employer to be known as "The guys that rolled that lear jet".

[Flysher]

chances are that guy was exaturating about how fast he comes down in the lear. I ride in the back of them all the time to reposition and they DO come down fast, just not that fast. I think they use a 2/1 descent ( any lear guys on here feel free to smack me and correct me if im wrong)

None of us are proud of the Lear incident. It doesn't reflect on the overall professionalism of the company. Most of us couldn't get our jobs done/meet our tight deadlines each night if we weren't professional in the way we handled our planes/couriers/cargo etc. It just sucks cause freight pilots get the bad rap already as it is, with us being labeled as the cowboys of aviation, then something like that happens.

Oh and to the guy askin about doin 360s over his hometown, if you saw what some of these companies were shipping on our flights or the price they were paying to ship them, you would understand why that wouldn't be a good idea. Body parts, medicines, stuff that expires. Last week a courier told me I had over 2 billion in cancelled checks onboard . So now you can understand why we try to go A to B as fast a humanly possible.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Flysher

Last week a courier told me I had over 2 billion in cancelled checks onboard . So now you can understand why we try to go A to B as fast a humanly possible.

Have you guys seen your check runs diminish at all or are they still going strong? IOW, have you seen any effect of the Check 21 law reducing demand? I know my checks with BoA are now electronically "mailed" back to me - viewable in my online account.

Also, I noticed Airnet ships stuff on 121 carriers too. Just the other day waiting in Ops I noticed an Airnet box that was going with us up to PHL from GSP.

[Flysher]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Have you guys seen your check runs diminish at all or are they still going strong? IOW, have you seen any effect of the Check 21 law reducing demand? I know my checks with BoA are now electronically "mailed" back to me - viewable in my online account.

Also, I noticed Airnet ships stuff on 121 carriers too. Just the other day waiting in Ops I noticed an Airnet box that was going with us up to PHL from GSP.

I myself have not noticed, but I have only been at Airnet for 1 year. Alot of the couriers that I talk to who have 10+ years with the company say it has declined big time. The one guy has gone from driving around in a big hotel shuttle-like van to driving a 4 door honda civic due to smaller loads. As I said before though, checks aren't our only business anymore thankfully. Our new CEO is pushing hard to aquire new customers, in new and existing regions.

I honestly didn't know about the 121 carrier thing, I would assume those are charters for pieces that didn't make it onto a system flight or something like that.

[EatSleepFly]

Originally Posted by Flysher

I honestly didn't know about the 121 carrier thing, I would assume those are charters for pieces that didn't make it onto a system flight or something like that.

Or possibly parts for your airplanes.

I know my company sends parts on the airlines if it's urgent and/or the location isn't reachable via comat.

[mikecweb]

If we can't fit it on our system it gets bumped and then we "commercial" it. Bank work almost never gets bumped as it has the highest priority with medical supplies just behind it.
Also if the stuff isn't time critical and has an odd routing that requires a monday morning delivery we'll throw it on a airline and it will get to it's location. We only do this if the customer isn't willing to charter.
I've noticed that the bank work is declining. You'd notice this J if you had the same run for awhile.
But pretty much there will always be a demand for flying checks. There will always be some that can't be sent electronically. However the weights are going down by the day and eventually it'll just be 5-10lbs of checks put out by the banks vs. the 100-200lbs we are getting now.
As stated above they are trying to explore other avenues to carry medical supplies and other premium time critical work but I've been told one of our current issues is bulk. We can't service the banks and the medical supplies at the same time as much as we'd want to with our current fleet. Checks fit better than square boxes in round tubes. That's what gets me excited when they talk about bringing some larger faster turbo-props onboard. This however is just a rumot and I wouldn't count on it until one pulls into Rick.

[KLB]

Suprisingly, AMF carries alot of Airnet stuff. Usually it's radioactive stuff.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by mikecweb

medical supplies just behind it.
Also if the stuff isn't time critical and has an odd routing that requires a monday morning delivery we'll throw it on a airline and it will get to it's location. We only do this if the customer isn't willing to charter.

It looked like a blood sample from what I could remember, but that would explain it. I thought it was a pretty good idea actually - charging customers for same day service at close to the speed of a charter. Just have a delivery guy in both cities and presto, instant same day service.

That's what gets me excited when they talk about bringing some larger faster turbo-props onboard. This however is just a rumot and I wouldn't count on it until one pulls into Rick.

I'm wondering if Airnet's long term goals are to be the new FedEx/UPS/DHL. They certainly seem to be slanting that way with their delievery tracking service, etc. I think it would be pretty neat to see them grow like that. Any rumors of that sort floating around? Take this quote for example:

Originally Posted by CEO Bruce D. Parker

"In addition, we are aggressively pursuing opportunities within the express services markets and look forward to leveraging the company's core competencies and strengths as we shape AirNet's future."

[Flysher]

The possibility of new planes has me excited as well. I would love to fly some larger equipment, but like Mike said I will believe it when I'm behind the yoke

[falconvalley]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I'm wondering if Airnet's long term goals are to be the new FedEx/UPS/DHL. They certainly seem to be slanting that way with their delievery tracking service, etc. I think it would be pretty neat to see them grow like that. Any rumors of that sort floating around? Take this quote for example:

Airnet has a different type of system. Their bread and butter is "when do you need this...ok, done." UPS and Fedex get it there on their schedule.

[mikecweb]

It's like we're on demand.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by falconvalley

Airnet has a different type of system. Their bread and butter is "when do you need this...ok, done." UPS and Fedex get it there on their schedule.

Right, I understand they are "on demand" but they do run most flights on a schedule, correct? It's just set by the banks, which happens to be why you run at night mostly.

A quote from your annual 10-K:

For those customers requiring time-critical delivery options not available on AirNet’s regularly scheduled routes, cargo charter services are available.

Also from it the company reduced it's weekday flights by 10% so far due to the reduced demand of check hauling.

I'm curious because I've been thinking about buying some Airnet stock, but I was wanting a positive indication that they were, in fact, expanding their express services department.

[towhook]

Originally Posted by butt

I'm trying to get a feel for how 135 cargo flying is like. Do you get to pick the route? If the weather is nice, can you opt to go the flight VFR? Lets say your route takes you over the town where you grew up in. If you were to decide to do a few 360's over the town to try to spot your house, will something like this get you fired? At a regional, this would get you fired in an instant. Are you given more freedom as a 135 cargo pilot? Obviously, assume that doing something like this causes no adverse safety violations. Do they just give you the plane loaded up, tell you the destination, then it's up to you to do the rest? Or is it just as strict as the airlines? Right now as a CFI, I can pretty much do whatever I want. If me and my student want to circle around a cow patch and watch the cows, we sure as hell can. There is no one to stop us. I have a cross country tomorrow, which we planned specifically so we can fly over and see this certain lake, which is supposed to have good water skiing (we are both interested in waterskiing). I KNOW this kind of freedom doesn't exist at an airline (which is partly why I'm not interested in working at an airline), but what about places like Airnet and AMF?

Originally Posted by butt

OK i get the point, but I'm not talking about going 100 miles out of your way or anything like that. Maybe "doing a few 360's" would be a little excess... The reason I asked, is because I know an Airnet guy who told us that at night you can get away with more. He went on to explain how he would practice emergency descents by descending from 30,000ft in the Lear, down to 3,000 in like 120 seconds. He seemed to characterize cargo flying as more "free". Is this correct?

I would say it depends on where you work. You will find in aviation that different companies, and different pilot groups, will have different opinions on what liberties you should take for your own pleasure. Whatever you do, at work try to appear to be the most conservative guy in the room. Obviously you have to remember that you can't get violated, you can't break the plane, and you need to be on time. Getting the job done is always going to be #1. If you want to peg out the VSI on descent, cool (keeping it in the envelope of course). If you are on a VFR leg and happen to track a few miles off course over your home town... no one is going to be the wiser. Yes, these are some of the freedoms of flying freight. When you get there you will know what is appropriate.

If 15k ft/min descents sound like fun to you then you will love being a freight dog. There are even more exciting things then that and they are all just part of the job.

[PositionAndHold]

Sounds to me like you'd be most suited in a Part 91 corporate gig. However, I don't know if I fully support Part 91 corporate stuff. Highly unstructured compared to 135 or 121. There are no checkrides, very few limitations on block times, and you could take off from an airport without even being able to see your wingtips in fog. It's a little to loose if you ask me. Heck, if someone really wanted to let you, they could throw you in the left seat of a King Air 200 after two or three flights so long as you're CMEL with the proper endorsements.

Panjet,

The stuff you mentioned about 91 corp flying has happend, but to say that 91 guys are out there doing it day in and day out, is a HUGE assumption. I fly a 91 Lear 45 part time, about 300 hours in the last 18 months. We have NEVER even considered doing ANY of the things you describe above. Yes we do get to make our own decisions. We are a small flight department, so we do not have a dispatch, pre-printed weather briefs, or flight plans filled for us (not that there is any thing wrong with that). Yes we do get to make more decisions, but they are always based from a safety point of view, and never a mission completion point of view. Our owners will back us up all day if we tell them we have to go later or maybe not at all.

Bottom line if your an idoit in 91, your going to be an idiot in 135 (Re: Airnet Lear roll), or in 121 (Re: PCL Repo flt). At the end of the day you are still going to have to explain to a Boss of some kind, why you bent his airplane or wasted his money.

[falconvalley]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Right, I understand they are "on demand" but they do run most flights on a schedule, correct? It's just set by the banks, which happens to be why you run at night mostly.

A quote from your annual 10-K:

Also from it the company reduced it's weekday flights by 10% so far due to the reduced demand of check hauling.

I'm curious because I've been thinking about buying some Airnet stock, but I was wanting a positive indication that they were, in fact, expanding their express services department.

Yes and no. Of course Airnet is "non-scheduled" and like you guys, they have a schedule of sorts. I wouldn't think Airnet would make a run at the biguns because of the disparity between their style of service. At least I don't think it's possible because to keep the prices down and make everybody happy, they'd have to set a schedule. They'd turn out to be exactly the same in the end. The best they can do is get the "we need to ship this now!!" customers. What I read out of the new CEOs statement was exactly what I told newbies during their interview tour, that Airnet is wading out of the check business and developing their express model. They've been doing that for a while, well express meaning customers willing to pay some extra cash for priority. I don't mean "overnight", I mean NY to LA in a few hours. So, yes they should still be expanding their express as he said, but it won't be anything UPS or FedEx would have to worry about. If we're talking actual customer service and not the service itself that could be a different story. You wanna buy stock?? Ahhh, well...that'd be a great question for those that see LCK alot more than I do these days.