Icing and weather.

[Ian J]

With the recent ice-storms around here these days, I started wondering about you guys who fly ice-capable planes.

How well does the de-icing equipment work on the typical freight aircraft (navajos, chieftains, barons, caravans, etc).

And a follow-up, is there any weather conditions you won't launch in? (Besides weather below mins, T-storms, etc.) Surface winds too high... too much icing?

Just wondering.

[Flysher]

You will probably get some much better answers from the more seasoned freight pilots here, but heres what I have to offer.

I fly the Baron, Caravan and Chieftain at Airnet. I've been in icing conditions in all 3 of them as well. Nothing to serious in the caravan though so hopefully Mike or Stone Cold will chip in for that. I can tell you though that the Chieftain and Baron are great in icing. Not so much the equipment even, just the fact that each of them can really haul a load of it(Chieftain/baron that is). The boots on most of the ones I have flown are so so. Sometimes most of the ice comes off and other times just bits will blow off and your left with leaving it on there or trying a different altitude to melt some off (Usually doesnt work for me).

Overall I would say the ice equipment on the planes is enough to give you options in getting out of the ice, or staying in it for a short period of time depending on the severity.

Oh and one more thing, we arent even legally allowed to launch into forecast or known severe icing, so your offered a bit of protection there. The training goes really in depth in dealing with it, so you will be ready to deal with it. EVERYONES main concern in flying freight is weather so you are not alone, its just something new for most people.

As for launching into weather, I have never cancelled a flight yet. Again the more seasoned dogs will have better answers for you. I have talked to guys who have landed in 40 + knot winds in blowing snow, yadda yadda, but hey no one ever says you HAVE to go.

I remember hearing a story about sometime last spring all of our guys in the south refused to fly because there were tornadoes and hail everywhere, and no one got fired then. Thats the best part about the job is YOU are PIC and whatever decision you make is the one that goes.

Hopefully that helps, I myself am looking forward to some of the other answers because its still a constant learning game for me as well.

[mikecweb]

I fly the caravan and have had some pretty good ice experience this season. One thing you will constantly hear with icing is the phrase "always have an out". Whether its an easy decision like descend 2,000ft to get to above freezing or climbing to get between layers. Tougher outs are having a place to divert to incase you have an deice equipment failure or a change of direction to get out of severe icing. The van collects ice as everyone knows. You just gotta be smart. You can sit in ice and pop the boots for hours on end. But you'll notice after awhile your airspeed never gets back to normal because there are places where the ice and weight just accumulate.
One thing that I learned which wasn't mentioned in any training I received: Yes you'll lose airspeed and we have minimum speeds in icing, but have you ever thought about fuel? Say you planned a 2:30 hour flight in night/IFR conditions. So you put on the minimum fuel you need plus your personal reserve. So you have 3:15-3:30 hours of fuel on board. Well you planned to fly at 170 not 120 your minimum icing speed. This is something I never even considered until I had to go into my reserve fuel just to make it to my destination one night because of reduced airspeed from ice. Not a fun night when the weather is close to minimums.

Edit: And dispatch has cancelled me because of freezing rain before I even looked into a go/no decision.

[johntlewis]

Hey Mikecweb:

Are go/no-go decisions always up to you as the Pilot? Would you get into trouble (fired) if you knew that flying in a particular situation was too dangerous but your boss didn't see it your way? I've always wondered that.

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[mhcasey]

Originally Posted by Flysher

EVERYONES main concern in flying freight is weather so you are not alone, its just something new for most people.

Sorry to interject here, but what kind of resources did you freight guys use to learn advanced weather, especially icing? Did your companies just give you a manual that they wrote, or did you pick up other books, etc?

Thanks,

Mike

[Flysher]

Originally Posted by mhcasey

Sorry to interject here, but what kind of resources did you freight guys use to learn advanced weather, especially icing? Did your companies just give you a manual that they wrote, or did you pick up other books, etc?

Thanks,

Mike

We got a training binder for class, it contained alot of company written stuff that I think was based alot on their extensive experience. I beleive they also used the NASA ice course a bit to demonstrate some things. If you want a good outside book on weather, pickup "weather flying" by Robert Buck. He did alot of severe weather flying in thunderstorms and ice and offers practical advice on how to deal with it all.

http://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/courses.html

Heres a link to the NASA ice course if you would like it.

[jtrain609]

If it's legal we go.

But if we tell dispatch we're not going, we're not going. NORMALLY that will simply mean a delay for whatever weather event you're talking about, be it a thunderstorm to move on, winds to die down a little bit or for the weather to come up above minimums.

Honestly I think our company will cancel more flights than the pilots will.

[mtsu_av8er]

I will cancel if there's freezing rain. Otherwise, just as Jtrain said - if I can go, I'm going to go.

My company has both booted airplanes, and airplanes with TKS systems. Both work well, and I'd usually prefer a TKS plane to a booted plane. The TKS is wonderful.

[EatSleepFly]

Originally Posted by ChinookDriver

How well does the de-icing equipment work on the typical freight aircraft (navajos, chieftains, barons, caravans, etc).

I've never flown an airplane with boots and thought, "gee, these things sure work great." Most of the time they suck. Some airplanes just carry ice better than others. Most of my icing experience is in the Be-99, Chieftain, Metro, and Caravan, and that's the order I'd rate them in from best to worst in ice overall. We had a Caravan with TKS at my old company, and I was thoroughly unimpressed, but some people swear by it.

Originally Posted by ChinookDriver

And a follow-up, is there any weather conditions you won't launch in? (Besides weather below mins, T-storms, etc.) Surface winds too high... too much icing?

I go unless company policy/regs, aircraft capability, or a deferred item prohibits it. And even then, it's usually just a delay to wait for better conditions. Just starting my third year flying freight and I've never had a flight completely cancel due to weather. Lots of delays, plenty of diversions, lots of holding. But I've never had to say, "nope, I'm going home and going back to bed." It just doesn't happen often, unless you're in the middle of a natural disaster and/or you're flying something that is very limited in capability.

[mikecweb]

Originally Posted by johntlewis

Hey Mikecweb:

Are go/no-go decisions always up to you as the Pilot? Would you get into trouble (fired) if you knew that flying in a particular situation was too dangerous but your boss didn't see it your way? I've always wondered that.

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The way I put this may sound bad at first but consider everything I write. Dangerous is a very relative term. What I think is dangerous and my 82 year old grandma think are dangerous are two different things. I like to sum up the go/no go decisions with flying freight as such: If the Regs whether it be company or FARs and airplane can go you go. If weather is below minimums at your destination you don't say oh well won't happen today. You find an alternate plan you find a solution. I've never since being here heard of someone getting fired because of a no go decision. Now if you rutinely cancel and every other plane in the company is flying your decision making may be looked at. Our job is to get boxes from Point A to Point B. Our job isn't to enjoy flying or to have fun. Those are byproducts of flying freight. The only day I've been cancelled was from a ice storm which not only cancelled my caravan but also several lear jets. Remember our job is to get boxes from point a to point b. The company knows that and if we crash point b didn't get their boxes.

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by EatSleepFly

We had a Caravan with TKS at my old company, and I was thoroughly unimpressed, but some people swear by it.

ME! ME! ME!!!

[Texasspilot]

cancelled one flight.

12 hours into a duty day and sleet that was sticking to the airplane with no sign of it giving up in time for the 1 hour flight home.

[KLB]

I've only ever had to cancel two flights so far. One was because of a winter storm with winds gusting up to 70kts and severe ice everywhere up in Seatle and the other time was going to Mammouth Lakes where the winds were gusting 50+kts with blowing snow. If its legal and I feel safe....I'm going.

[jtrain609]

We SHOULD HAVE cancelled that flight to Mammoth, dude!


(Nothing bad actually happened, and we had no reason to cancel, we just had a really frustrating morning trying to get up there the other day)

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

We SHOULD HAVE cancelled that flight to Mammoth, dude!

Don't you love hindsight?

Once, on final to 20L, with winds varying from 150 to 300 degrees, gusting to 49 knots, I thought to myself, "Self, maybe another cup of coffee and a nap would have been a good idea . . . ".

[jtrain609]

Naw, it wasn't that bad. We just managed to break 2 planes and it made us a good 2 hours late that day. One turbo failure about 20 miles away from Burbank and then the next one wouldn't start. You know it's just one of those days when somebody is trying to tell you somethin', but we didn't really want to listen.

[Bandit_Driver]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

Naw, it wasn't that bad. We just managed to break 2 planes and it made us a good 2 hours late that day. One turbo failure about 20 miles away from Burbank and then the next one wouldn't start. You know it's just one of those days when somebody is trying to tell you somethin', but we didn't really want to listen.

I hate days like that John...

I can't imagine going back to boots...I love the hot wing...

[KLB]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

Naw, it wasn't that bad. We just managed to break 2 planes and it made us a good 2 hours late that day. One turbo failure about 20 miles away from Burbank and then the next one wouldn't start. You know it's just one of those days when somebody is trying to tell you somethin', but we didn't really want to listen.

Awww...It wasn't that bad. Besides the few maintenance issues (and that other errr... thing) it was a pretty easy flight up the owens valley. Now when I go up there tommorrow........I better remember to bring my hard hat because it's suppose to be winnnnndy! Atleast I'll be by myself and won't have that liberal hippy with all his bad luck sitting next to me.j/k

Btw
That turbo failed more like 60 miles outside of BUR!