Why freight over regionals???

[Adam2006]

Just curious why people choose freight over regionals? It appears companies are requiring more hours than regionals to get hired on at, is this true? Is this still a stepping-stone to a regional? What about the 1000hr PIC over 12,500lbs. requirement for the majors? Aren't most freight companies flying under this weight(I'm obviously not talking about UPS, Fedex, etc)? Thanks, for your replies!

[OldTownPilot]

....because sometimes the journey is so much better than the destination.

With the little flying that I have done I feel it would make me a better pilot in the long run. This is also the route I want to take in a few more years. In 6 months you can be PIC on a B-99 for AMF getting your 1000 hours of Multi turbine PIC long before you would be close to a Captain bid at many regionals. Plus you dont have to play the "lower the bar to keep your flying" game against your fellow pilots. As far as advancement only JetBlue has a weight requirement. Pilots have gone from AirNet (with Lears) and Ameriflight (with TurboProps) and other Turboprop 135 operators to the majors. Heck 13 years ago the only jets were flown at the "Majors" (Comair got the first RJ in the US in 1993). Thousands of pilots got their first jet time in 737s coming from B-99s, 1900s, Saabs, ATRs etc. If it was done then why not now? It was posted a while ago on here the New hire makeup of an Alaska new hire class. Guess what? Half of them were flying props before the move.

If you really want to get down to scrounging for time, there was a recent Continental new hire who had ZERO multi turbine time, not even as SIC, All of his turbine time was in a Caravan and his multi was in a piston.

[Minnesota_Flyer]

Because boxes don't [COMPLAIN].

[Stone Cold]

Where do I start...ahh never mind, I'll piss people off and write a book on it. We'll just say so I can look in the mirror. This is for me only, YMMV. And, no I will not be going to a regional after this...I will get out of flying first. We have had some people come here (Airnet) and then go to the mini majors but I've never understood that one.

Oh well, good luck.

[Texasspilot]

Originally Posted by txpilot

Where do I start...ahh never mind, I'll piss people off and write a book on it. We'll just say so I can look in the mirror. This is for me only, YMMV. And, no I will not be going to a regional after this...I will get out of flying first. We have had some people come here (Airnet) and then go to the mini majors but I've never understood that one.

Oh well, good luck.

Copy that......besides chicks dig freight hounds...just ask my GF - shes an airline pilot.

[Adam2006]

Oldtown, my goal is a major(unique, I know), and I'm concerned about being competitive down the road. Do you think having thousands of hours in a lance or baron would be desirable for a place like southwest. thanks, for your help.

[CaptChris]

Adam,
I'll take this question bud.
Scenario:
Pilot A has 1000 total time, 200 multi and is hired by XYZ regional. In his 18 months with XYZ regional he logs 1400 mutli engine SIC and is furloughed. He then gets hired by ABC regional where he logs an additional 1000 hours mutli engine SIC but can not upgrade due to his seniority #/base/attrition etc.

Pilot B has 1200 total time, 25 multi and is hired by ABC Freight Inc. During his 18 months with ABC Freight he logs 300 hours single engine and 1200 hours mutli engine PIC.

Three years down the road the two go for a job interview:
Pilot A-1000 PIC 2400 SIC (hasn't touched the controls in five years)
Pilot B- 1225 MULTI ENGINE PIC, 2700 PIC total.

Which looks more attractive? If you want to go to a major, then go to a regional, but you're putting all your eggs in one basket. If you want more information buy my book

[Stone Cold]

See this thread: http://www.jetcareers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26319 and Alchemy's post on it to see why not to go to a regional. I feel bad for all the regional guys/gals. It's sad to see this industry go where it's going.

CaptChris, the SIC's in the regionals fly regularly, but SIC time is just not as valuable as it once was considering how many mini majors are furloughing, losing people to attrition, etc. There are a ton of CRJ/ERJ SIC's looking to get out of where they are.

Just my observations, don't take personally. Any regional guys want to chime in with why go to regionals over freight??? Equal opportunity, and all.

[AlexF]

Originally Posted by txpilot

We have had some people come here (Airnet) and then go to the mini majors but I've never understood that one.

Granted I'm not a commercial pilot of any sorts. But I do want to become a major pilot (I think), yet I've always thought it would be fun to fly in the middle of the night, single pilot IFR, in an old airplane, with some "bumps" along the way to drop off some cargo. It just seems really appealing to me. Now maby that's not how the cargo outfits are in reality, but in my mind, that's how I see places like airnet, and that's where I'd like to be for a good chunk of time.

[adreamer]

Just wondering what are some freight job around MI? I do know airnet has some runs around Detroit.

adreamer

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by CaptChris

Three years down the road the two go for a job interview:
Pilot A-1000 PIC 2400 SIC (hasn't touched the controls in five years)

This may come as a shock, but the FO's get to fly just as much as the CA's at my airline. We generally fly 2, then do the PNF thing for 2 legs.

As for picking a freight vs. regional, I think there are way too many variables that go into that to make a choice. Family aspects, advacement opportunity, top out pay, etc. all go into that. I had the opportunity to ride with a few LabQuest guys for a few nights, and it was interesting and looked like a lot of fun. $$ talks in their case, I suspect most freight operations flying bonanzas, barons, TBM's and PC-12's don't start you at $60+k and top out at well over $115k...at least you have that option (for similar potential earnings) at most of the jet regionals.

However, the bigger freight companies certainly offer that and quicker advancement (such as Airnet - from piston to lears to the well-paying jetride). That, IMO, would trump a regional any day if you could swing it. I kick myself from time to time for going to MAPD to instruct instead of toughing it out another couple months to go to a place like airnet, ameriflight, etc. etc.

However, my life certainly isn't bad, I will go to work 8 days this month, 2 of which I picked up for overtime. I might pick up another 3 or 4 day depending on how lazy I am feeling to make another $500 or so extra this month (that's at first year pay). Not great, even embarassing, but that option is there. With a real job you wouldn't have to pick up extra time...

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by adreamer

Just wondering what are some freight job around MI? I do know airnet has some runs around Detroit.

adreamer

Central Air Southwest does some stuff up there.
http://www.centralairsouthwest.com/main.html

[KLB]

Do you guys know if this SIC program is PFT or pay for hours. http://www.centralairsouthwest.com/sic_info.html

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by KLB

Do you guys know if this SIC program is PFT or pay for hours. http://www.centralairsouthwest.com/sic_info.html

Doesn't matter - don't do it, yo. Get the 135 mins and become a PAID professional pilot .

[jtrain609]

I think what Kelvin is asking is whether it's like Airnet's SIC Program where THEY pay YOU

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by John Herreshoff

I think what Kelvin is asking is whether it's like Airnet's SIC Program where THEY pay YOU

Just remember if you get into one of those "SIC" programs, you can only log the time when you manipulate the controls, ie PIC. You cannot log SIC in an aircraft that does not require one, like a baron.

[jtrain609]

Take it up with Airnet, it's legal what they do.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by John Herreshoff

Take it up with Airnet, it's legal what they do.

Willing to bet your Certificate on that?

Logging SIC/PIC time: here's howIn addition to hiring pilot in command (PIC) qualified pilots, AirNet Systems, Inc. offers a program by which pilots serve as first officers (FOs) on light, twin-engine, piston-powered aircraft operating under 14 CFR 135. Candidates for this particular program have less than 1,200 hours total flight time and/or less than certain categories of flight time such as cross country. As noted in 14 CFR 135.243(c), 1,200 hours total flight time, is the minimum total time a pilot must have to be assigned as pilot in command in IFR conditions while operating under 14 CFR 135. In the same regulation, minimums also are established for cross country, night, and instrument flight time. No minimum PIC time is specified. The minimum grade of pilot certificate for PIC or second in command (SIC) is Commercial. AirNet’s first officer program allows pilots to build their flight time to 1,200 hours and/or to meet the minimums established for the categories mentioned above.
Here is how a pilot utilizes the flight time accrued in AirNet’s program: 14 CFR 135 subparts G and H establish the requirements for testing and training of flight crew members in each type of aircraft to which they are assigned to duty by an air carrier operating under 14 CFR 135. For a flight crew member to be assigned duty, the air carrier and the pilot must comply with all requirements. This, of course, allows the pilot to be on board the aircraft as a flight crew member.
Since the pilot can now legally be a flight crew member, the pilot also can manipulate the aircraft’s flight controls. How a pilot logs the flight time is found in 14 CFR 61.51(e)1. If a pilot assigned as SIC manipulates the flight controls of an aircraft in which that pilot is rated, that pilot may log the time as PIC. This does NOT change who is assigned as pilot in command. Operations conducted under 14 CFR 135 can have only ONE assigned PIC, regardless of who is manipulating the flight controls. The assigned PIC must be assigned in writing and remains the pilot in command throughout the flight. Therefore, when the SIC manipulates the flight controls, that pilot may log PIC flight time. The only time the second in command can log SIC flight time is while that person is serving as second in command on an aircraft requiring more than one pilot by its type certificate, or when required by the regulations under which the flight is conducted. Obviously, AirNet’s light piston twins do not require more than one pilot by the type certificates, however, there are conditions under 14 CFR 135 operations which do require two pilots regardless of the aircraft type. Examples include takeoffs below 1,800 RVR, carrying passengers in IFR conditions without an autopilot, and whenever the flight crew is being assigned to more than eight hours of flight time. In most cases, even these requirements do not apply to operations at AirNet, therefore, the SIC logs pilot in command time while being the sole manipulator of the flight controls and logs total time only, when not manipulating the flight controls.
This program and method of logging flight time is supported not only by Federal Aviation Regulations, but also by legal interpretations. Keep in mind, however, that as pilots move through their careers and apply for other jobs, certain organizations may require specific conditions of pilot in command time. One major airline, for example, has very specific instructions on its application that state pilot in command time is ONLY the time for which you were responsible for or in charge of the aircraft, not merely sole manipulator of the flight controls.In summary, there is a difference between who is assigned as pilot in command and who may be manipulating the flight controls and logging PIC time. At times, both pilots may be logging PIC time because one is the assigned pilot in command (acting PIC as provided in 14 CFR 61.51(e)1(iii)) and the other may be manipulating the flight controls but assigned as second in command.
In most cases at AirNet, an assigned SIC is either logging the time as pilot in command when he or she is the sole manipulator of the flight controls, logging the flight time as total time only when not manipulating the flight controls, or as SIC if required to be there either by the aircraft type certificate or by the regulations under which the operations are conducted.
Pilots who still have questions about how the AirNet second in command program works may contact us at (877) 247-6386.

— Clair Morris,
Director of Training, AirNet Express

[Hootie]

Freight or regionals, its all the same #####. If you're in a hurry to get to a major then try the freight gig, more pic. I think everyone should get some pic time in a pos before they become an fo on junglejet. That way you have some decision making skillz. If you want a higher qol then do the regional thing without commuting. Id rather have wheelsup's schedule.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by John Herreshoff

I think what Kelvin is asking is whether it's like Airnet's SIC Program where THEY pay YOU

I took it to mean - "is this a PFT type program, or is it considered paying for hours a la timebuilding".

Originally Posted by dugie8

Just remember if you get into one of those "SIC" programs, you can only log the time when you manipulate the controls, ie PIC.

Dugie8 - what you posted and the article you posted don't conincide. According to Airnet, you can log the time you are not manipulating the controls as well, but simply as TT. Did you read the article you posted?

I did, because I've posted it several times on here myself.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I took it to mean - "is this a PFT type program, or is it considered paying for hours a la timebuilding".



Dugie8 - what you posted and the article you posted don't conincide. According to Airnet, you can log the time you are not manipulating the controls as well, but simply as TT. Did you read the article you posted?

I did, because I've posted it several times on here myself.

Uh, total time, but not PIC, SIC, or dual received, do you log TT when you fly on an airliner? Airnet's program is legit, if you log PIC when manipulating, or SIC when certain conditions are met, but TT and no PIC,SIC or Dual Received, now thats funny.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

Uh, total time, but not PIC, SIC, or dual received, do you log TT when you fly on an airliner? Airnet's program is legit, if you log PIC when manipulating, or SIC when certain conditions are met, but TT and no PIC,SIC or Dual Received, now thats funny.

Hey, I'm just pointing out what they say they are allowed to do in the article you posted as gospel. If the FAA has signed off on it, why not?

EDIT: I agree, sounds shady to me, but who am I do disagree with the FAA? If Airnet has this in writing that its legit, I'm guessing it's ok to do. Any Airnet SIC's wanna chime in about how they log this stuff? Is Airnet still doing the PIC/TT thing?

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Hey, I'm just pointing out what they say they are allowed to do in the article you posted as gospel. If the FAA has signed off on it, why not?

EDIT: I agree, sounds shady to me, but who am I do disagree with the FAA? If Airnet has this in writing that its legit, I'm guessing it's ok to do. Any Airnet SIC's wanna chime in about how they log this stuff? Is Airnet still doing the PIC/TT thing?

Lets back up one step here. Airnets "posting" is not regulatory by any means. The FAA has not stated you can log TT without PIC, SIC or Dual received...

Mr. Jeff Karch
P.O. Box 5791
Lynnwood, WA 98046-5791

Dear Mr. Karch:

This is in response to your letter dated August 26, 1996, to the Office of the Chief Counsel, Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), concerning the logging of pilot-in-command (PIC) time. Additionally, your letter raises questions regarding the qualifications of pilots designated as second in command (SIC) by part 135 (14 CFR part 135) operators.

In your letter you present the following scenario: A pilot, wishing to advance his or her career, pays a part 135 operator to fly in the right pilot seat during part 135 operations. The part 135 operator designates this pilot as second in command (SIC) and allows him or her to manipulate the controls. The aircraft being flown during these operations is not required by type certification to have more than one pilot and the part 135 operation being conducted does not require more than one pilot. You ask whether the above pilot can log PIC time during those portions of the flight when he or she is the sole manipulator of the controls and whether a pilot may be considered the SIC for the part 135 operation if he or she is paying the part 135 operator to conduct the flight. The answers to these questions are discussed below.

The logging of flight time is governed by section 61.51 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (14 CFR part 61.51). That section requires the logging of aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate or rating, flight review, or the recent flight experience requirements of 14 CFR part 61. The FAA does not require the logging of other flight time, but it is encouraged.

Logging of SIC flight time is governed by section 61.51(f), which provides, in pertinent part, that a person may log SIC time only for that flight time during which that person acts as SIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required by the aircraft’s type certificate or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

If a pilot designated as SIC is not required by either the aircraft type certificate or the regulations under which the operation is being conducted (e.g. 14 CFR part 135.103), as is the case in the scenario above, then the pilot designated as SIC may not log flight time as SIC. Although the flight time cannot be logged as SIC time, the pilot designated as SIC may be able to log part or all of the flight time as PIC in accordance with section 61.51(e).

Section 61.51(e) provides, in pertinent part, that a private or commercial pilot may log PIC time only for that flight time during which that person is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or is acting as the PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

Accordingly, a pilot designated as SIC may log as PIC time all of the flight time during which he or she is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which that individual is rated. Although the pilot designated as SIC in the scenario you provided in your letter may be properly logging flight time pursuant to section 61.51(e), the more important issue raised in your letter concerns whether or not this individual is properly qualified to be designated as SIC and to manipulate the controls of the aircraft.

Section 135.95 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (14 CFR part 135.95) provides, in pertinent part, that no certificate holder may use the services of any person as an airman unless the person performing those services holds an appropriate and current airman certificate and is qualified, under this chapter, for the operation for which the person is to be used. (Emphasis added)

Section 135.115 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (14 CFR 135.115) governs who may manipulate the controls of an aircraft being operated under part 135. This section states, in pertinent part, that no person may manipulate the flight controls of an aircraft during a flight conducted under part 135 unless that person is a pilot employed by the certificate holder and qualified in the aircraft. (Emphasis added)

As a result, a part 135 operator may only designate a pilot as SIC and allow that individual to manipulate the controls of the aircraft if that pilot is "qualified" in the aircraft and "employed" by the certificate holder. In order to be "qualified" in the aircraft for the operation for which the person is to be used, a pilot designated as SIC must meet all applicable regulatory requirements including the eligibility requirements under section 135.245 (14 CRF part 135.245) and the initial and recurrent training and testing requirements under section 135.293 (14 CFR part 135.293).

Section 135.245 provides, in part, that a certificate holder may not use any person, nor may any person serve, as SIC of an aircraft unless that person holds at least a commercial pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings and an instrument rating.

Section 135.293 provides, in part, that a certificate holder may not use any person, nor may any person serve as a pilot, unless that pilot has passed a written or oral test on the listed subjects in this section as well as pass a competency flight check.

Therefore, a part 135 operator may only designate a pilot as SIC if that pilot is properly "qualified" in accordance with the regulations including sections 135.95 and 135.115 (he or she holds the appropriate certificate and ratings pursuant to section 135.245 and that pilot has received the initial and recurrent training and testing requirements in accordance with section 135.293).

In addition to being properly "qualified," a pilot may only manipulate the controls of an aircraft under section 135.115 if that individual is also "employed" by the part 135 operator. A pilot is considered to be "employed" by a certificate holder under part 135 if the pilot’s services are being "used" by the certificate holder. This is the dictionary definition of the word "employed"; there does not have to be a direct employer to employee compensatory relationship. While there does not have to be a direct employer to employee compensatory relationship, there does have to be an oversight relationship of the individual by the certificate holder for that individual to be considered properly "employed" (used) by the certificate holder.

As part of this oversight relationship, the part 135 operator is required, pursuant to 14 CFR part 135.63(a)(4), to keep certain records of each pilot the certificate holder uses in flight operations (e.g. the pilot’s full name, the pilot’s certificates and ratings, the pilot’s aeronautical experience, the pilot’s duties and assignments, the date and result of each initial and recurrent competency tests and proficiency and route checks, the pilot’s flight time,…). In addition, the part 135 operator is required under 14 CFR parts 135.251 and 135.255 to provide, directly or by contract, drug and alcohol testing for each individual it "uses" in safety-sensitive positions. Flight crewmember positions, of which pilots fall under, are considered to be safety-sensitive positions as defined under part 121, appendices I and J, (14 CFR part 121, appendices I and J), which require drug and alcohol testing.

In summary, based on your scenario, a pilot, wishing to advance his or her career, may pay a part 135 operator to fly in the right pilot seat during part 135 operations provided he or she is qualified, under part 135, for the operation for which the person is to be used. In addition, this pilot may manipulate the controls of the aircraft during part 135 operations provided he or she is employed by the certificate holder. This pilot may be designated as SIC even though the aircraft being flown does not require more than one pilot and the regulations under which the flight is being conducted do not require more than one pilot. Finally, this pilot may log PIC time for those portions of the flight when he or she is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, but may not log any portion of the flight as SIC time.

We hope that this satisfactorily answers your questions. This opinion has been coordinated with Flight Standards.

Sincerely,

Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations Division

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

Lets back up one step here. Airnets "posting" is not regulatory by any means. The FAA has not stated you can log TT without PIC, SIC or Dual received...

What, exactly, was the point of pasting that article here then? It sounded to me like you were referring to it as part of your argument. It would have been better to post the offical FAA LOI.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

What, exactly, was the point of pasting that article here then? It sounded to me like you were referring to it as part of your argument. It would have been better to post the offical FAA LOI.

Because the letter is from Airnet, clearing stating you cannot log SIC (unless certain conditions are met), the FAA letter was not entirely on point as it deals with PFT and sitting right seat in a 135 operation, but it did address logging PIC vs SIC, note the letter says nothing about op specs either.

Now, maybe Airnet allows for logging of just TT to meet the FARs for 1200 TT for 135 PIC quals, if so, I don't think there is anything wrong with that, I don't know of a FAR that actually dicatates that TT must be either PIC, SIC or Dual received/given. It does seem a little suspect though, the FAA letter talks about logging all or part of the flight as PIC for the time the pilot manipulated the controls, yet it makes no mention of logging just TT for flight time not manipulating the controls. However, the REGS are more of a permissive language, so anything not clearly prohibited, is usually ok. Huge difference between ok and being accepted as "valid" time for any other job. Not saying the time isn't valid, per se, just that if someone is not going to make a career out of Airnet, applying to SWA or JBLU, you may want to think about how you log your flight time. This scenario is especially important since the TT you may log at Airnet (without PIC/SIC) is going towards your 1200, which must be logged since it is required by the FARs for PIC in 135.

Kind of a catch .22 that is probably best left untested.