Why freight over regionals???

[Stone Cold]

Originally Posted by E_Dawg

Just an observation but txpilot, you almost sound defensive.

Defensive...nah. Frustrated, saddened, distraught, maybe. Not defensive.

Bob,

That's great!!! I wish y'all the best over there.

Just answer my question, though, on the other regionals I mentioned and how their upgrades are going. Where are y'all getting your upgrade times from? All regionals or the ones you want to look at?

[Stone Cold]

Thinking about it, distraught is too strong...we'll stick with frustrated and saddened to see the industry like it is.

[Dugie8]

Originally Posted by txpilot

Thinking about it, distraught is too strong...we'll stick with frustrated and saddened to see the industry like it is.

I ask this honestly, whom do you think is responsible for the current state of the industry?

[Kingairer]

Originally Posted by txpilot

Defensive...nah. Frustrated, saddened, distraught, maybe. Not defensive.

Bob,

That's great!!! I wish y'all the best over there.

Just answer my question, though, on the other regionals I mentioned and how their upgrades are going. Where are y'all getting your upgrade times from? All regionals or the ones you want to look at?

Are there no freight operators with guys on furlough ? I believe there is. ARe the majors terrible companies because they have guys on furlough also? Its the fact of life, and a fact of aviation, maybe not for the 135 operators of the world. How many freight dawgs have lost routes b/c there company lost a contract freight bid? Does the new company now have trouble looking at themselves " in the mirror" as you put it? Is ramp 66, tarheel, pirate, etc still running some of the eastern NC routes....they arent....wonder what happened to them? ....And thats just in one state and in one region. I decided to do a little research since i pulled the times out of my own ass, so this is what airline pilot central says...which is close to be up to date....

Jr capt Date of hire
Air wis...Oct 2003
Big sky...Oct 2004
Boston-Maine...2005
CHQ....March 2004
Colgan...Jan 2006
Commutair...may2004
Era...Apr 2000
Lakes...Apr 2005
Horizon...Oct 99
Island Air...Oct 2004
Mesaba..Mar 2001
PDT...Mar 2001
Pinnacle...Apr 2005
PSA....Jun 2001
Skyway...Oct 2005
TransStates...feb 2004
Eagle...June 99
ASA...July 2001
Comair...Feb 2002
ExpressJet...Jan 2005
Mesa...Aug 2005
Skywest...Jan 2005

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/

I would say my ass was pretty close, Im sure youll disagree. So there is all of them...and not the ones "I just want to look at".

[jonnyb]

You guys all have waaaaay too much time on your hands.





J/K

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by Kingairer

Jr capt Date of hire - ExpressJet...Jan 2005

Ummm, no... Or I'd be a hoopin' and a holarin' right now.

The rest of their info on XJT looks pretty accurate with the exception of the statement "-Continental will pull 69 aircraft from ExpressJet in Jan 2007" We'll know by September what our company (XJT) decides to do with the aircraft. Either way... things are going to get really bad... or really good. Sooooo... we'll see.

Originally Posted by Kingairer

Eagle...June 99

Holy crap!

[EatSleepFly]

It's a lost cause, txpilot. Just like you said in your first post on this thread, and why I haven't even bothered replying.

People would line up in droves to fly for "mini majors" (I like that) if they paid $5/hr.

I'd love to actually contribute to the real topic of this thread, but I don't think I'll bother wasting my time.

To each his own, I have nothing against regional pilots. It's just not for me, and freight is. I know (and I'm sure you do too) that you and I aren't the only ones, tx.

I've turned to being indifferent lately, and its much less stressful. I'll keep doing what I'm doing, and everyone else can do the same. Life's too short.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by EatSleepFly

I'd love to actually contribute to the real topic of this thread, but I don't think I'll bother wasting my time.

The best way to discuss this subject is to put forth the facts, and let others decide vs. try and convince someone their/your way is better than the other, IMO. Like you said, it totally depends on the person. You posted your typical schedule here not too long ago and it's stuff like that that'll help someone decide if they wanted to fly for a regional vs. flying freight.

I think there are a lot of misconceptions on both sides - ie the $18k ALL regional pilots earn and the freight dawgs that fly through EVERYTHING and go no matter what .

Asking a general question like "why freight over regionals" is a loaded question IMO. Brings back memories of debate team stuff....

[EatSleepFly]

Good post!

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Asking a general question like "why freight over regionals" is a loaded question IMO. Brings back memories of debate team stuff....

Alright then, if anyone has an "unloaded" question about freight, I'll do my best.

[Kingairer]

Thats the difference ESF...You state that frieght it for you...which is great...TX POV is that he wouldnt lower himself to fly for a regional, and that he can sleep at night because he doesnt work for one.

[EatSleepFly]

Well, to be fair, there's a whole lot of regional pilots out there who wouldn't "lower" themselves to fly any freight less than FedEx or UPS.

But I'm all for getting the thread back on track or starting a new one, because it could be a valuable discussion for someone.

[Stone Cold]

Originally Posted by Kingairer

Thats the difference ESF...You state that frieght it for you...which is great...TX POV is that he wouldnt lower himself to fly for a regional, and that he can sleep at night because he doesnt work for one.

Feeling defensive, Kingairer? Guess what, it's a growing feeling out here in the rest of aviation. Ask around...

[Kingairer]

Originally Posted by txpilot

Feeling defensive, Kingairer? Guess what, it's a growing feeling out here in the rest of aviation. Ask around...

Not defensive, just quoting your normal responses without exagerating.

[Stone Cold]

Originally Posted by Dugie8

I ask this honestly, whom do you think is responsible for the current state of the industry?

I think it's a combination of numerous things from the past and continuing today. I think the biggest contributors are the Majors and ALPA/APA. Back in the day, there were good jobs at the majors. They all looked down upon the regionals and said we'll gladly give you those small planes (50 and less seats). I was interning at AA at the time this was going on. At the time, the regionals were a stepping stone, and required 135 minimums.

Then, word found it's way to airline mgmt that pilots would "pay for training" and "pay for jobs", with shirts everywhere that said "I will fly for food", etc. Most regionals started requiring people to pay for their own training, which was a very bad thing for the industry, because it reinforced to mgmt that pilots really will do anything to fly for an airline.

Of course, the people entering the industry at the time (my age group) gladly paid the money because the regionals were just a stepping stone. They were using the regionals to get that coveted job at a Major. The regionals were getting a great deal, since the pilot groups were paying for their jobs and/or training, depending on how you look at it. Everybody was using each other.

Enter the RJ's. Now, everybody knows that they aren't efficient, but they still dominate the regionals, and for years. Why? I am still trying to figure that one out. The majors, seeing how everybody was jumping on each other to get the jobs, and knowing what the pilots did at the time to get the jobs, looked at it as a way to decrease pilot pay. The majors had some very senior pilots getting paid very well. How do they get rid of this? Enter the regionals. Now, most of the regionals had a decent sized fleet of RJ's. More and more flying starts going to the regionals. The pilots at majors start seeing the light, but too late. Now, everybody is screaming bloody murder about the RJ's. The major pilots are watching their flying go to the regionals more and more. Mgmt now comes and says, either take a pay cut or we'll give more flying to the small guys. The majors are locked in to their brand of flying, due to being very senior, since airline mismanagement prior to 9/11 already washed out most of the junior guys/gals at the airlines. 9/11 just amplified a bad situation and helped the airline management's cause.

Now, you have major airline pilots adamant about getting back the flying they gave up a long time ago. You have regional guys/gals that bought their jobs back in the day, who are now the senior people at the regionals saying screw the majors...we're stuck here. Let's get as much flying here as we can and hold on to our jobs. And you have these flight schools tripping over each other to get the business to get these low-timers into the cockpits.

As far as the low-timers...remember, I said the regionals used to have normal flight time requirements to get hired on? Well, most regionals ended up being in a MAJOR airline status (see airlinepilotcentral.com). This, along with the regionals fighting over each other for flying rights for each major, led to lower and lower pay. When you lower pay, you have to look for lower qualifications. It's been discussed on here with other threads how I believe it was Pinnacle didn't pay for training costs, but once they stopped hiring from Gulfstream, they had to start doing something, a la pay for housing, etc, during training to get people in the door. This is them raising the bar after hitting rock bottom. Scary, isn't it?

So, to answer your questions, the demise is caused be each and every one of us. We're the ones who fly for lower and lower wages. Why do you think the regionals keep lowering their mins? Does everybody think there aren't enough qualified pilots out there?

Just my observations...

TX

[GaTechKid]

I ask this honestly, whom do you think is responsible for the current state of the industry?

Economics.

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by GaTechKid

Economics.

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.... folks... we have a winnah!

[Stone Cold]

That is the worst oversimplification I've heard to that question!

[Alchemy]

I think it's human nature to defend one's own choices, and it's natural to think that the path you blazed was "the right way to go". Personally I won't apologize for flying an RJ; mainline chose to scope the flying away. If it was really that important to them I suppose they could negotiate to get the RJ's back at mainline. Even though we have a few vocal pilots on these boards who are adamant about limiting RJ flying, the vast majority of mainline pilots really don't care enough to give up anything like payrates to get the flying back.....if I wasn't flying these things then someone else would be.

ESF's philosophy is probably the best way to approach things. Most people have a reasonable amount of integrity, but you can kill yourself trying to point fingers and criticize the choices that everyone makes in their career.

Most pilots who did PFT or PFJ at outfits like gulfstream probably did not do it out of malice, but purely out of ignorance. After all, why would somebody pay for something when in reality they could fairly easily accomplish the same thing while being paid? Probably because they didn't expend the time and energy to research before they plunked down the money.

I believe the same thing applies to the regionals in general. You've got a lot of CFI's who are working their tails off and can't crack 20k/year. They're looking for the quickest way to a better living, and right now the regionals are that quick and easy way out, even quicker than 135 freight. Unfortunately you also have regional airlines competing against one another to see who will work for the least amount of money... that type of environment is not condusive to making progress in pilot pay.

The moral of the story is that aspiring pilots need to do some research before they go blindly seeking employment. Insist on respectable pay and work rules....select your employer, don't let them select you. Unfortunately that old cliche too often applies: Beggars can't be choosers.

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by txpilot

That is the worst oversimplification I've heard to that question!

Well... the question itself is way too broad. So.... I liked the overly simplified response.

[Trybysky]

I'll try to stick to the facts:

I fly freight. People ask me if I want to ever become a real pilot (meaning haul people, i guess). I still have to wear a tie. I don't make a lot of money ($33k). I fly a dirty airplane with the old steam guages. BUT... I work monday night (start at 4pm done at 7pm) through friday night(tues-fri, 3pm to 9pm). I am building pic multi turbine. I am home every night (if I choose to live at my base). I have EVERY HOLIDAY off. I have EVERY WEEKEND off. I have jumpseat privilages. I've become very efficient at instruments.

I'm happy where I am. I don't want to work for a regional, it does not interest me at all. Hopefully I can skip that step, like many others.

Choosing to be a freight driver was a great choice(FOR ME)...no regrets.

To each their own. Good luck with your desision.

[Alchemy]

That's sounds like a nice schedule rybysky. Weekends and holidays would be nice, although I'm getting weekends off now.

Don't worry, flying an RJ I still get the "so when are you gonna fly a real jet" comments from everyone I know. Heck, half the people just assume that I fly freight for some reason....."hey, you're flying freight right?". "No."

"What kind of plane do you fly?"

"An Embraer 145."

"What's that?"

"A 50 seat brazillian made jet."

"oh, so when are you going to fly a real jet?"

"well I have to make captain on these first."

"how long will that take?"

"anywhere from 6 months to 10 years"

"oh. that doesn't sound so great."

I'm was at a wedding last weekend, I never mention that I'm a pilot but of course everyone knows (thanks to my loudmouth parents) and they want to start a big conversation about it. Gag me. As soon as I start explaining the regionals and what they are they lose interest fairly quickly.

At least it's a good way to change the subject. Talking about the job is becoming one of the last things I want to do on my days off.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I think there are a lot of misconceptions on both sides - ie the $18k ALL regional pilots earn

OK......most, then.

and the freight dawgs that fly through EVERYTHING and go no matter what .

Hey! I did that.

[Mr_Creepy]

LOL I was a Shorts Driver and told some girl about it in church one day (because she asked - really - like you I had learned to avoid the subject.)

She says "Oh no, you don't fly commuter jets do you - those things are dangerous! They're falling out of the sky!"

At that time there was only a couple regionals with jets (1995) and I said "I would LOVE to fly a commuter jet."

I never got it explained to her properly.

[jtrain609]

One time I told my mother I wouldln't mind getting on at Scenic, flying Twotters over the Grand Canyon. She thought that was about the most dangerous thing I could do with my life. I looked at her and said, "You realize that flight instructing is a heck of a lot more dangerous than flying a 12,500 lbs., twin turbine aircraft over a big ditch, right?"

She didn't want to hear that.

[hank1292]

Try explaining on demand freight to someone. Frustrating. I gave up a while ago. "Hotel room tester" is my "official" answer when asked about what I do. It is just not worth trying to explain.