Business Jet Direct

[DeuceOfAces]

Hey ya'll,

Do any of you have any experiance with this program?

So, turns out than I'm really interested in it because I've decided that if I pursue the professional pilot route, I'd like to fly biz jets and not at the airlines (it used to be the other way around but thank goodness I found jetcareers, phew...) Teaching at a Flight Safety Center should be awesome for networking and that's basically how you get your foot in the door in the biz av industry, right? I've realized that getting that first job in the Part 135 world is the hardest part, but after that, experience should carry my career forward.

I'm 18 right now and a college sophomore I'm thinking of doing this program after I graduate and seeing how the economy is then. Hopefully, I can knock out at least my PPL and maybe instrument before I graduate if I pay as I go. That's outrageously expensive here in the NYC metro area though...

All comments and advice welcome.

[soonerpilot06]

Get at least ATP minimums before even thinking about going to a center. FSI will not let anyone instruct in a jet simulator with less than that. Working for FSA (Academy) is a good way to get a foot in the door at a sim center. Otherwise, you will be competing with retired airline captains and those with tens of thousands of hours of jet time for a sim instructor job.

Craig....care to shed some light on this?

[DeuceOfAces]

Originally Posted by soonerpilot06

Get at least ATP minimums before even thinking about going to a center. FSI will not let anyone instruct in a jet simulator with less than that. Working for FSA (Academy) is a good way to get a foot in the door at a sim center. Otherwise, you will be competing with retired airline captains and those with tens of thousands of hours of jet time for a sim instructor job.

Craig....care to shed some light on this?

Oops, I meant to say that I intend to hopefully get my private and instrument on my own up here, then heading down to vero beach once I graduate from college.

[brandyn]

Originally Posted by DeuceOfAces

Oops, I meant to say that I intend to hopefully get my private and instrument on my own up here, then heading down to vero beach once I graduate from college.

You wont qualify if you don't go down to the Academy wth any licenses. To do that program you have to start with your private pilot's license there. But, once you work for them as an instructor, you could apply for a transfer to a center.. The only thing is you may not get the same pay as if you did the full BJD program.. Still a way to fly the sims though and make some good connections!

[DeuceOfAces]

Originally Posted by brandyn

You wont qualify if you don't go down to the Academy wth any licenses. To do that program you have to start with your private pilot's license there. But, once you work for them as an instructor, you could apply for a transfer to a center.. The only thing is you may not get the same pay as if you did the full BJD program.. Still a way to fly the sims though and make some good connections!

I love quick replies

So, if I start from scratch at FSA Academy (PPL to CFI/CFII/MEI) I should earn more as a CFI and eventually as a sim instructor?

[Crockrocket94]

It is all economy dependent.

Both of you guys are correct in your assesment.

There are really two ways to go about looking at this.

To be an INSTRUCTOR at a Center on whatever equipment if it requires a TYPE rating than you FSI will require you to be ATP rated and TYPED in that Series.

If you are teaching on something lesser like a King Air 200, then I believe they will let you teach without the ATP.

Call the center and find out, I honestly can only speak from an SIC standpoint here.

Brandy is correct, however, I believe it is more of a person to person basis and it is up to that center to what they are going to pay you.

Play your cards right and you can come out making mid 40's and have a pretty cushy schedule.

Generally the FSI BJD program is more of an SIC position for networking but there is the possibility of becoming an INstructor at a Center. Now, Sooner is correct in stating that having at LEAST 1500 would behoove you in the idea that you can just get a type and ATP and then possibly start on a program, depending on if the center needed Instructors.

Btw, I am an SIC up at the Toledo center.

I currently work with the Citation II, V, V Ultra, III, XL.

I have met alot of good clients through the Sims and am looking forward to hopping into a Citation VII for some contract work in the very near future.

Craig

[DeuceOfAces]

Sweeeet!

Yeah, I think I confused sim instructor with the SIC program. If I'm reading this right, as a SIC I'd fly in the right seat while Flight Safety clients conduct recurrents, type rating training, etc, right?
And CrockRocket, how long did it take to get your certs and make it to St. Louis? I'm assuming you went to FSA without a PPL?

Oh, and do instructors at the academy (before they head to a Flight Safety center) get bennies (401k, health care)? I think I read that SIC employees at the sim centers get benefits.

This info is really, really helpful.

[swisspilot]

Originally Posted by soonerpilot06

Get at least ATP minimums before even thinking about going to a center. FSI will not let anyone instruct in a jet simulator with less than that. Working for FSA (Academy) is a good way to get a foot in the door at a sim center. Otherwise, you will be competing with retired airline captains and those with tens of thousands of hours of jet time for a sim instructor job.

Craig....care to shed some light on this?

I know two FSA 2008 grads, one CFI (never worked as one) and the other just Comm multi instrument, both working at FSI centers, one In Savannah the other in Tucson, both with less then 400 hours when hired. last time I talked to them they where flying for clients too.

I think what matters is if they are hiring or not, then for sure with ATPL mins you can get hired easier..

I was at FSI in Paris (world main center for EMB), where my gf's dad works, over there SIC are actual sim instructors, nobody around there had less then 5 type ratings and 15k hours....

[Crockrocket94]

Originally Posted by swisspilot

I know two FSA 2008 grads, one CFI (never worked as one) and the other just Comm multi instrument, both working at FSI centers, one In Savannah the other in Tucson, both with less then 400 hours when hired. last time I talked to them they where flying for clients too.

I think what matters is if they are hiring or not, then for sure with ATPL mins you can get hired easier..

I was at FSI in Paris (world main center for EMB), where my gf's dad works, over there SIC are actual sim instructors, nobody around there had less then 5 type ratings and 15k hours....

Alex who went to Sav and TUS?


Btw, the mindset is differet for FO's and SIC's over there than it is here in the states.

And alot of people who seat fill around here are IPs for FSI. Having 15k hours and multiple types doesnt mean you are a good right seat guy. There is alot more to being a good SIC for FSI then just having experience. Being too good a co-pilot can really hurt the learning ability of the client. It's like instructing, you have to let the student make the mistake for them to learn.

[swisspilot]

Originally Posted by Crockrocket94

Alex who went to Sav and TUS?


Btw, the mindset is differet for FO's and SIC's over there than it is here in the states.

And alot of people who seat fill around here are IPs for FSI. Having 15k hours and multiple types doesnt mean you are a good right seat guy. There is alot more to being a good SIC for FSI then just having experience. Being too good a co-pilot can really hurt the learning ability of the client. It's like instructing, you have to let the student make the mistake for them to learn.

KSAV: Satoshi
KTUS: Lory Wood

There is an other guy I remember that grad in 2008, he is also in TUS, he was in the AATP with eagle before

[Crockrocket94]

Originally Posted by DeuceOfAces

Sweeeet!

Yeah, I think I confused sim instructor with the SIC program. If I'm reading this right, as a SIC I'd fly in the right seat while Flight Safety clients conduct recurrents, type rating training, etc, right?
And CrockRocket, how long did it take to get your certs and make it to St. Louis? I'm assuming you went to FSA without a PPL?

Oh, and do instructors at the academy (before they head to a Flight Safety center) get bennies (401k, health care)? I think I read that SIC employees at the sim centers get benefits.

This info is really, really helpful.

Duece, AFAIK IPs at the Academy receive full benefits (something like 20 a month for health coverage, with selectable plans). I am a full time Employee of FSI at the Toledo location so I receive said bennies.

Part time workers do not receive benefits. Which isnt bad if you have alternative means for healthcare be it through a university or sig. other.

Alex- Cool, thanks for the info.

I think alot of people get a misconception about what it is people are expected to do at a center if they choose that route.

I know of MANY people who have gotten jobs out of FSA's BJD track, and other who have gotten jobs without ever working a day at FSA Vero. Like I said, it is all up to the center, just go talk to the Center Manager or Director of Training and if they are looking for part time help or full time help they are the ones that would know about it.

[DeuceOfAces]

OK, I've got one (wait.. its two) more questions. How's the debt load? Since I go to a state school, I expect to graduate from college with 0 student loan debt so that should really help. I expect the price of attending FSA to increase over the next 2 years but can anyone give a ballpark figure?

And, what time frame should I be looking at to get from PPL to CFI. It depends on how much I apply myself unlike ATP where they've got people on a set schedule (90 days), right?

[swisspilot]

Originally Posted by DeuceOfAces

OK, I've got one (wait.. its two) more questions. How's the debt load? Since I go to a state school, I expect to graduate from college with 0 student loan debt so that should really help. I expect the price of attending FSA to increase over the next 2 years but can anyone give a ballpark figure?

And, what time frame should I be looking at to get from PPL to CFI. It depends on how much I apply myself unlike ATP where they've got people on a set schedule (90 days), right?

Get your PPL before you go to FSA.

[soonerpilot06]

Originally Posted by DeuceOfAces

OK, I've got one (wait.. its two) more questions. How's the debt load? Since I go to a state school, I expect to graduate from college with 0 student loan debt so that should really help. I expect the price of attending FSA to increase over the next 2 years but can anyone give a ballpark figure?

And, what time frame should I be looking at to get from PPL to CFI. It depends on how much I apply myself unlike ATP where they've got people on a set schedule (90 days), right?

If you get your private before coming here, I recommend you don't build too much time afterward. In the part 141 world, if you enter a program with a private, you have to complete the Step II time building phase. That's even if you have 100 hours already. It will seem like a waste of money to have to go back and fly more cross countries just to meet the requirements of the 141 program. Part 61, of course, would be different. From Step II through Step V (CIME) you can plan on spending around $50K. Step I through CFI would cost around $65 - 70K. With a private already in hand, you can complete this in about 4 to 6 months if you are dedicated. CFI will likely take you 2 to 3 months. PPL to CFI is possible in about 10 to 12 months. Just don't take long leaves of absence.

[DeuceOfAces]

Originally Posted by swisspilot

Get your PPL before you go to FSA.

Yeah, I've been hearing that. Why is it better to go to FSA with a ppl already in hand?

[soonerpilot06]

Originally Posted by DeuceOfAces

Yeah, I've been hearing that. Why is it better to go to FSA with a ppl already in hand?

Mainly because it is much cheaper to get a ppl from an FBO part 61. From an FBO, you will likely spend $5K to $8K getting a private. At FSA, the cost is somewhere near $12K just for the ppl portion of the 141 program.

[Crockrocket94]

Well, I guess it depends on the person. However, if you go by the MIN numbers (40 hrs 61 vs the 141 FSA Syllabus) it is cheaper. But it has to do with the groundschool as well.

[DeuceOfAces]

Thanks guys for all the responses so far

Now, after a bit of research of my own I've discovered that FSA is the most expensive academy-type flight school out there. Even showing up with a PPL already in hand, FSA will run me about 55K - 65K. That's a big investment since I'll be borrowing all that money. IS IT WORTH IT? I would like you all to give me your coldest, most brutally honest, un-sugarcoated assessment. Did FSA work for you or other people you know and would you recommend it?

BTW, I'm deciding from among academy (FlightSafety, ATP, PanAm, DeltaConnection) schools that have housing options since I'll be living away from home wherever I train at. The fbo's around where I'm at (FRG, ISP, HWV) aren't great for training career pilots. Barely anybody has multi-engine planes (and they're $260 an hour, ouch...)!

[swisspilot]

Originally Posted by DeuceOfAces

Thanks guys for all the responses so far

Now, after a bit of research of my own I've discovered that FSA is the most expensive academy-type flight school out there. Even showing up with a PPL already in hand, FSA will run me about 55K - 65K. That's a big investment since I'll be borrowing all that money. IS IT WORTH IT? I would like you all to give me your coldest, most brutally honest, un-sugarcoated assessment. Did FSA work for you or other people you know and would you recommend it?

BTW, I'm deciding from among academy (FlightSafety, ATP, PanAm, DeltaConnection) schools that have housing options since I'll be living away from home wherever I train at. The fbo's around where I'm at (FRG, ISP, HWV) aren't great for training career pilots. Barely anybody has multi-engine planes (and they're $260 an hour, ouch...)!

I don't think FSA is the most expensive, out of the schools you named I would go FSA with no doubt

[DeuceOfAces]

Originally Posted by swisspilot

I don't think FSA is the most expensive, out of the schools you named I would go FSA with no doubt

The 4 I mentioned are just examples, but any flight school that has housing options is fair game.

[T56Maniac]

Originally Posted by swisspilot

I don't think FSA is the most expensive, out of the schools you named I would go FSA with no doubt

Deuce,
you'll only get bias answers from this forum. Everyone has to make that decision on their own.....if it was "all worth it.". Every individual is different. What I recommend (like everyone else) is to visit each top flight school that u have in mind and then make an informed decision. Yes, I repeat visit.... Because like u said ..... +60k is alot of money to be paying off for the next 30 years! I know this is a big decision for u, we have all been there.

For me, FSA is/was (very) expensive but I'm glad FSA gave me the opportunity (training/job) to move past the military while still giving me "structure" in my life. For me, this was a "professional" course I could follow and not worrie about the end goal. That gave me (and only me) the, what u called "All Worth It" factor.

Hope this has helped. Best Of luck.
T56

[SuperStarFlyer]

There's several different ways to do things in this industry. You will definitely receive professional training if you go to FSA. I am currently an instructor at FSA and I have been for awhile now, waiting for my opportunity to transfer to a center. I never had intentions to go to the airlines either. Corporate all the way!

I can't speak much for the other schools that you mentioned other than DCA. I was not impressed with their housing (too expensive) and flightline when I toured. Since then they've gotten new aircraft. Other friends of mine went there and said they enjoyed being a student and got the training done relatively quickly. But once they became instructors there, the story changed and they couldn't wait to leave. I think they were making somewhere around $10 per hour as an instructor. I decided real quickly that DCA was not for me especially since FSA had the BJD program.

When I decided to attend FSA, I already had my PPL and instrument ratings. (Mainly because I had never heard of FSA until later into my training). I would say that it is definitely a good idea to get your PPL before you decide to invest the rest of your money into and expensive program as it is. Make sure this IS REALLY what you want to do. I know some people say do all your ratings at FSA or do everything after your PPL there. It really doesn't matter as long as you work hard and apply yourself. Yes, it's true the less ratings that you do at FSA will make it more difficult to "catch up" to their standards. It isn't impossible but it can be difficult. It depends on the person. Basically what I'm trying to say here is that you can do your training however you want to and still have the opportunity to be involved in the BJD program if you like.

Honestly, it really doesn't matter if you say that you want to do the BJD program. That program is in place, but at the moment the best idea is to get your CFI ratings and instruct until you get the ATP mins and then transfer to a center when they need people. If you do that, you take your current pay and benefits with you. (All full-time CFI's at FSA get full-time benefits) and at least you would have much better chances of being SIC typed on some SIM or better sometime. It always depends on what they need at the time.
The other option is to go to a center right after finishing with your CIME (which right now would be very difficult-it might change by the time your ready) and basically make minimum wage doing whatever the center needed done. And this option is only available to students that have done all their training at FSA (full CIME).

In the long-run, do what's best for you. If that means getting your private, instrument & commercial ratings at your FBO locally, then do that and finish everything at FSA then instruct and go to the center when you get the opportunity. Or head down to FSA as soon as you can and get started on your training to the business jets. You'll find lots of us here that want the same thing. Just remember your goals and work hard. Whatever school you decide to go to is just there to help YOU fulfill your goals. Work hard and apply yourself and you'll get it.

Hope that helps. Good luck!

[swisspilot]

Originally Posted by SuperStarFlyer

There's several different ways to do things in this industry. You will definitely receive professional training if you go to FSA. I am currently an instructor at FSA and I have been for awhile now, waiting for my opportunity to transfer to a center. I never had intentions to go to the airlines either. Corporate all the way!

I can't speak much for the other schools that you mentioned other than DCA. I was not impressed with their housing (too expensive) and flightline when I toured. Since then they've gotten new aircraft. Other friends of mine went there and said they enjoyed being a student and got the training done relatively quickly. But once they became instructors there, the story changed and they couldn't wait to leave. I think they were making somewhere around $10 per hour as an instructor. I decided real quickly that DCA was not for me especially since FSA had the BJD program.

When I decided to attend FSA, I already had my PPL and instrument ratings. (Mainly because I had never heard of FSA until later into my training). I would say that it is definitely a good idea to get your PPL before you decide to invest the rest of your money into and expensive program as it is. Make sure this IS REALLY what you want to do. I know some people say do all your ratings at FSA or do everything after your PPL there. It really doesn't matter as long as you work hard and apply yourself. Yes, it's true the less ratings that you do at FSA will make it more difficult to "catch up" to their standards. It isn't impossible but it can be difficult. It depends on the person. Basically what I'm trying to say here is that you can do your training however you want to and still have the opportunity to be involved in the BJD program if you like.

Honestly, it really doesn't matter if you say that you want to do the BJD program. That program is in place, but at the moment the best idea is to get your CFI ratings and instruct until you get the ATP mins and then transfer to a center when they need people. If you do that, you take your current pay and benefits with you. (All full-time CFI's at FSA get full-time benefits) and at least you would have much better chances of being SIC typed on some SIM or better sometime. It always depends on what they need at the time.
The other option is to go to a center right after finishing with your CIME (which right now would be very difficult-it might change by the time your ready) and basically make minimum wage doing whatever the center needed done. And this option is only available to students that have done all their training at FSA (full CIME).

In the long-run, do what's best for you. If that means getting your private, instrument & commercial ratings at your FBO locally, then do that and finish everything at FSA then instruct and go to the center when you get the opportunity. Or head down to FSA as soon as you can and get started on your training to the business jets. You'll find lots of us here that want the same thing. Just remember your goals and work hard. Whatever school you decide to go to is just there to help YOU fulfill your goals. Work hard and apply yourself and you'll get it.

Hope that helps. Good luck!

Getting your private outside FSA could be good for your overall pilot skills. If you go to FSA with O time and you do your CMEI there, you will be a nice 1000' pattern pilot. Florida is flat an other then weather and some busy airspaces (which in reality are not so bad at all) does not offer anything to make everyflight different.

Before going to FSA I did some flying in the mountains, then for 2.5 years just Florida and some southern Georgia. When I went back home, I was amazed how a new environment totally killed my pilot skills, I went to the local FBO to do a Dual and I felt I was training for my private again.

[bLizZuE]

Originally Posted by swisspilot

Florida is flat an other then weather and some busy airspaces (which in reality are not so bad at all) does not offer anything to make everyflight different.

I couldn't disagree more with this statement.

Maybe we should move the academy to the grand canyon so that every day we can have a different flight? That doesn't make any sense.

[swisspilot]

Originally Posted by bLizZuE

I couldn't disagree more with this statement.

Maybe we should move the academy to the grand canyon so that every day we can have a different flight? That doesn't make any sense.

FSA is at the right place, but it's nice for a pilot to get exp in different places not just to get is full training in one spot...

BTW let me know when you get to switzerland, and I will show you what I mean