FSA vs ATP?

[lythgoe12]

I've been looking at both of these schools and I have read good and bad about both of them, but I have read way more positive stuff about FSA then i have about ATP! I know they both have different ways of doing there programs but it all really boils down to the people that are gonna be training you, if they actually want to teach you and help you out of if they just want to get you in the air with the basics info needed so they get there hours and get out of there? So if theres anyone that can help me out here I would really appreciate it!!

[psosa272]

Wow, what a funny time for this topic to be posted. I will try to be unbiased at this point but I think it will be hard.

I started the nation wide program in the fall of 2006 at my local fbo. I was to enroll in the career pilot program with ATP as soon as I was finished. But as we all know, weather never goes our way. Betwen instructors leaving and changing as they got hired into airlines, limited aircraft availibility, and other random events, it took me almost exactly a year to get my PPL.

ATP decied that because of the raise in tuition and the fact that it took me so long to finish that rating and my start date being switched several times, I owed them an additional ten thousand dollars. I bit the bullet and took out another loan.

I then proceeded to RIC for my 20 hr timebuild and intro to instruments in one of their 172's. Out of the 5 days I was there (after I paid airfare to fly there), I got a total of 2.4 flight hours. No instructors were available to fly with me, and this had been scheduled 2 weeks in advance! Frustrating to say the least. So an employee of ATP said it was no big deal (not the case in my opinion for the money I was spending), and that I could continue on without the hours. Not acceptable at all!

I came back to Trenton where I would do the remainder of my training. I started November 26th with my multi engine training and here we are on Feb. 9th and I still don't have the rating. I made myself available 5 days a week for this program when all they ask for is 8 days a month!

The condition of the airplanes at this particular location was pathetic. We were grounded more times than we flew, we had to sometimes turn around after takeoff and land due to some electrical problems. The switch panel placards are completely worn away so you can't read any of the switches and their functions. The elevator trim tab indicator was broken so my instructor said you basically had to guess the position before takeoff! WOW.

The last straw was a couple weeks ago when we got in the cockpit to go do a few more hours so I could take my scheduled check ride the following day. I turned on the master switch as per the checklist and everything was dead. I mean everything completely dead. I also noticed a considerable amount of water that came out of the electrical panel. I have not been a pilot that long but I can say with relative certainty that water belongs nowhere near an aircraft electrical system. We got a ground start and the alternators still failed to produce a charge.

I put in several calls to ATP dispatch, some met with a rude attitude on the other end, and some calls never returned. I also called school president Koziarski and never recieved calls back. I was only told that we could not get a newer or better functioning airplane at Trenton. As a student who has a total debt of over 63 thousand dollars, I should think they would do their best to accomodate me. They didn't even want to help.

I finally got a return call from the president the day we sent him a certified letter (which was difficult because we didn't know his address as they only list a PO box for him). Long long story short, he basically tried to put words in my mouth, and turn things around on me when I was just asking him for any help with the situation. He also had no idea about the instructor situation until I informed him that 2 had previously left, and mine was on vacation. He said he will try to have one there within the next month. Its funny how they could charge me ten thousand dollars for taking a while, but they can take their time with anything.

Don't believe their advertising hype about new and pristine aircraft fleet because it is false, at least in my experience over the past year. As a side note, on the timebuild in Richmond, we had to turn around in flight because the left fuel pump failed. Great maintinence.

The reaction I got out of the president was not what I would expect after I had taken a loan for that much tuition. They are not about customer service and if you need more information, I am sure you could find quite a few disgruntled ATP instructors, as I have of my own.

I requested refund as of last week. I am going to flight safety academy for a tour next week. They seem to have great program without all of the advertising hype. I have also been told my major airline and air force pilots flight saftey is the only civilian way to go. You need to make your own choice but please consider what I have said as I want to see no more students deal in this way with such a huge investment, and their personal safety. ATP is NOT worth it.

Good Luck and Be Safe!

Hope this wasn't too long winded lol.

[lythgoe12]

Holy cow you've had a pretty rough go! The sad thing is, is that your not the first persons I've read about that is having or had the same problem! I haven't heard anything really great about any of the locations! If it isn't a big deal do you think you could post a thread or email me on how your visit goes to the academy? Thanks for the post!

[psosa272]

I would be more than happy to do so! Do as much reading as you can and do what works for you. Even if FSA turns out to be perfect for me (no idea yet) still look around and visit everywhere you can. Don't be sucked in by advertising like ATP puts out there.

Its funny, over the last week I have been calling "career counselors" to get school info for such places as DCA and FSA and its kinda funny...every one I talked to kinda chuckled when I said what happened with ATP and they just kinda said..."ohhh another one..."

I will definitly let you know how my visit to FSA goes next week or the week after. After all the things I have read, esp about cons of each flight school...the worst FSA cons couldn't come close to the seriousness of ATP's cons. I'll keep ya posted!

[psosa272]

LOL don't mean to keep going on but thoughts keep on coming after the fact!

When you are looking at length of time for completion of courses, don't think you will be done ATP in 90 days in the "fast track". When I was in Richmond, the people who I was in the apartment with had been there for over a month and had just started their instrument training. I mean just started. FSA makes the call of about 6.5 mos being realistic. Also from the DE's that I have run into thus far....90 days is entirely too fast to learn what you absolutly need to know to be a safe pilot. Just a thought.

Also at FSA, one thing that is pulling me there is student life. The fact that you go in with a training class, makes things a bit easier. I know this from my experience in the fire department/academy, as well as police training in my past. Everyone shares a common goal and you are in it together. I think it would help you focus a bit more.

[lythgoe12]

I really appreciate everything that you have said! it's been a big help in trying to decide what and how to do the rest of my training! I can't believe that ATP is getting away with training and running there company like that! hopefully you get your money back from them! well good luck with your visit and keep me posted how how things are going!

[Ducky]

based on readings, atps is based on locations of how cfi's treat you from what i understand. But im sorry to hear your experiences.

Ever been to a Mcdonalds that cashiers actually cares about taking your order and service and other McD's locations don't?

Same concept.

Just my observations.

[Clocks]

Yeah from what I heard the "nationwide" program was an absolute 100% complete disaster, which is why it was canceled.

The attitude from the VP doesn't surprise me at all, that's exactly what he's like in real life too. The shoddy mx at RIC was my biggest complaint after working there for 3 months (left before you started I think, 5 of the 7 instructors including myself left within a 3 week period).

I cant imagine 8 hours of flight training for the multi addon taking 7 weeks and counting, even for a self-paced student. I have to think there's a little more to the story, but I don't want to jump to any conclusions.

[psosa272]

LOL I know it sounds like there should be but there really isn't. I have been online weekly making myself available through the online scheduling 5 days a week and a lot of weekends as well, and I am in this situation. It still seems unbelievable to me. My instructor quit this month as well. He was kicked out of housing because Jim did not want to deal with anything. The story was that a gun was pulled on him as he was returning home one night. The person who pulled the gun was a known weed dealer in the area. A fight ensued, and on my advice (former LEO) my instructor immediately filed a police report. Turns out this guy had caused trouble before and told my instructor it would be taken care of. Word got back to Jim and he would hear no parts of the story. He kicked my instructor out right away. Way to take care of the employees. I saw the police report, and I am still amazed.

I agree with the point about McDonalds, however I have never spent 63000 dollars at one lol and expect better service from ATP.

I went to my local fbo and they have a seneca available to do my MEL and they promised me about 10 days until completion. We shall see.

[Ducky]

i wonder if we can petition at atp for new management :P

[Number1atNumber2]

I went to FSA, and I thought it was a great flight school. The aircraft were pretty well maintained, and I rarely had to scrub a flight due to maintenance. I had a few instructors as I trained there, most were really good, one was not. I also enjoyed the CRM and aerobatics classes. Ther instructors definatly knew their stuff. Vero Beach is a boring town, but that can be good as you'll have less distractions. Watch your self in the practice areas though, it can be crowded at times.

[psosa272]

Originally Posted by psosa272

LOL I know it sounds like there should be but there really isn't. I have been online weekly making myself available through the online scheduling 5 days a week and a lot of weekends as well, and I am in this situation. It still seems unbelievable to me. My instructor quit this month as well. He was kicked out of housing because Jim did not want to deal with anything. The story was that a gun was pulled on him as he was returning home one night. The person who pulled the gun was a known weed dealer in the area. A fight ensued, and on my advice (experience with LEO's i should say, and on their advice) my instructor immediately filed a police report. Turns out this guy had caused trouble before and told my instructor it would be taken care of. Word got back to Jim and he would hear no parts of the story. He kicked my instructor out right away. Way to take care of the employees. I saw the police report, and I am still amazed.

I agree with the point about McDonalds, however I have never spent 63000 dollars at one lol and expect better service from ATP.

I went to my local fbo and they have a seneca available to do my MEL and they promised me about 10 days until completion. We shall see.

[soonerpilot06]

As a former instructor at FSA I must say that the school is top notch. Yes the fleet is aged. Yes FSA is very expensive. However, the training you will receive is the best. The planes often do have maintenance issues, but the mx staff is second to none. If you have a problem, you call dispatch and a mechanic will meet you at the plane in under 5 mins. If the problem will take too long to fix, you simply return the can to dispatch and get another airplane. With FSA, you get what you put in to it. If you study hard, make yourself available to fly often, and gemini (observe) other student flights, you will set yourself up to do very well.

[psosa272]

Good to hear! Thanks for the info. I am trying not to make up my mind yet but its good to hear this info now. As I said we are headed to Vero Beach next fri. to check things out. Will let yall know!

[Ducky]

any updates?

[Fly_Unity]

Just my experiance, I showed up at ATP, got an awesome instructor the next day, 100 days later had all my ratings, and felt I got a good education, I flew with the President and VP, they are awesome ppl, the president gave me 100 dollor bill once to go buy a steak, they paid for all my expenses besides food while I was there. I finished and started instructing at another 141 school and in a years time I have over a 1000 hours, alot of it multi. It is fast for some ppl, I had one room mate drop out it was to fast for her, for me though I wouldnt want it any slower. I was the perfect study rate for me. I have friends at FSA who was still working on the same rating when I started ATP as when I finished ATP. Also I seen at my location students from FSA who quit and came over to ATP, AT ATP you know excatly what you will pay.


All that said, Ive been endorsing smaller schools because of ATP's price increase. ratings are ratings, it dont matter where you get them. so dont buy the hype that one school will get you a job easier.

[psosa272]

Nothing as of yet. Heading down there this coming Friday for the tour and evaluation and such. Will keep you posted...

[SpiraMirabilis]

Originally Posted by Fly_Unity

Just my experiance, I showed up at ATP, got an awesome instructor the next day, 100 days later had all my ratings, and felt I got a good education, I flew with the President and VP, they are awesome ppl, the president gave me 100 dollor bill once to go buy a steak, they paid for all my expenses besides food while I was there. I finished and started instructing at another 141 school and in a years time I have over a 1000 hours, alot of it multi. It is fast for some ppl, I had one room mate drop out it was to fast for her, for me though I wouldnt want it any slower. I was the perfect study rate for me. I have friends at FSA who was still working on the same rating when I started ATP as when I finished ATP. Also I seen at my location students from FSA who quit and came over to ATP, AT ATP you know excatly what you will pay.


All that said, Ive been endorsing smaller schools because of ATP's price increase. ratings are ratings, it dont matter where you get them. so dont buy the hype that one school will get you a job easier.

Thats a little psychological trick. He does that with basically everyone, although its usually like $50. You have to remember that that is your money in the first place. You just got finished paying them $45k or whatever so ask yourself -- would you rather have paid $44,900 or pay $45,000 and then get $100 back later? I know which I'd prefer.

ATP is alright. They do exactly what they say they will. But the price is getting so high lately that FSA isn't that much more and I'm sure provides a better education. YMMV

[West_Indian400]

Originally Posted by Fly_Unity

It is fast for some ppl, I had one room mate drop out it was to fast for her, for me though I wouldnt want it any slower. I was the perfect study rate for me.

Horses for courses.

[psosa272]

Looking for more advice!!!...

In this whole process of looking for a new flight school, I have given some consideration to going the FBO rating by rating route. I found a place in Northern Jersey that would take me from private MEL to all cfi's. All training is done in glass cockpit twinstars, cirrus sr-20', and glass 172's. The price is actually much lower than what I thought and is comprable to many other programs. I would wind up with 100 multi, 250 total, and was thinking about buying a block of time in the twinstar to add on. I know at FSA you end up with about 55 multi by the end.

I wanted to have something to compare with when I go down to FSA. Just trying to have some options!

[bLizZuE]

do the fbo with twin stars and sr22s

[psosa272]

Any particular reason?

[SpiraMirabilis]

Its cheaper.

[bLizZuE]

and you get to fly high performance / complex / NEW aircraft with glass. good experience and cheaper = wiser

[psosa272]

Makes sense. I am really leaning towards that now. I am going to visit that FBO tomorow and FSA on Friday and hopefully will have a decision then. I think I know what I am going to choose though lol. Still waiting to hear from ATP.