Flying Schools

[Gabito]

I am planning to study aviation, and I am considering the following academies : Pan Am, Regional Airlines and FlightSafety. I will appreciate if somebody who has passed through this experience can give me an opinion about these academies.

Thank you

[DE727UPS]

They are all overpriced routes into the piloting profession. They work for some people, especially for those whom money is no object or those who have VA benies to spend. Just don't buy off on the marketing hype you'll see at the schools websites. Be sure to visit each school personally and talk to students on the side, not part of the official tour.

I think the best route into the profession is to train at a quality smaller school, get your CFI, and work your way up.

Be especially wary of schools that promise you a job or an interview.

[Gabito]

Are you a pilot? Where did you study?

[DE727UPS]

Gabito. See my profile at the perspectives section of the home page. I'm a 757/767 Capt at UPS. I trained at both ERAU and small flight schools. Hopefully, someone from FSA with something useful to say will speak up.

[bLizZuE]

Always a glamorous introduction, thank you Don

I currently attend FSA in Vero, and can offer you a little insight on the program, yet as Don said, visiting the school is the best idea.

We have a very structured course here, and they have a syllabus they follow religiously. The professional pilot course they sell you as a zero time pilot is the CIME (commercial/instrument - multi-engine). They say you can do this course in 53 weeks, but that's with 5 events per week(an event is a flight, class, simulator lesson, etc). There aren't very many people that can manage to get 5 events. Weather, scheduling, work, all affect how you get scheduled. I'm currently about a year and 2 months into it here, and I'm just about to finish CIME.

The planes are well maintained, as ancient as they are. The facilities here for the most part are well maintained.

I have enjoyed most of my stay here, and am satisfied with the training. It is expensive, but in my mind, well spent. You can spend a lot less money, and get the same training, but you can't get some of the benefits of training here. They have a great corporate business jet internship program, and of course the opportunity to instruct here.

If you have any other questions, I'm all ears.

[Doug Taylor]

This is something I typed several months ago in the forum about the various flight training options. Instead of repeating myself, I just cut 'n pasted:

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

This is my opinion. It's 'stream of consciousness' so I might ramble.

There are five distinct "training circles".

One training circle is the military. People that have the qualifications for the military and have a strong desire to serve their country generally take this route. Highly structured program, intense training, little opportunity for extra training and zero spoon feeding. Perform at 100% or become the "chief bottle washer" of your Air Force base. Taxpayer-financed training, but you repay that cost with a charge to defend the nation with your life.

Another training circle are the FBO/fixed base operators. Spread across the country at small, medium and large airports offering a variety of services. Some have stuctured programs, some don't. Costs are generally lower than other training circles, but you get the same FAA certificate than you get anywhere else. Mostly meant for people who want to train at their local airport at their own pace. Less structure and less overhead mean a lower cost.

Flight Academies are another circle. Some students perform best in a tightly structured (for the lack of a better term) quasi-military style program with performance goals, a tight syllabus and whatnot. Additional structure means a higher cost than a FBO/fixed base operator.

Another training circle are accelerated (training) programs. If you're a self-starter, learn fast on your own and generally (unlike me cuz I'm a little slow) have the ability to get concepts and manuevers down pat the first time, you can save time and sometimes money with a program like this. Costs vary depending on the company.

And the last circle is the Aviation University. A mix of Flight Academy added into a collegiate environment.

As a potential student, you've really got to look at yourself first and figure out how you learn and what you want to get out of training in order to decide which training circle you'd do best in. Some people need a red-hot fire poker in their rump during training and others want a 'peace train' approach. Comparing prices and programs across circles isn't a valid comparison unless you recognize what environment you feel you'll best succeed in.

Focus primarily on the training and the environment that best matches the way you realistically learn.

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by Gabito

I am planning to study aviation, and I am considering the following academies : Pan Am, Regional Airlines and FlightSafety. I will appreciate if somebody who has passed through this experience can give me an opinion about these academies.

Thank you

I, as well as most of my friends who went through FSA completed the CIME program in 7-9 months. If you want to fly 5 missions a week, it is very easy to do. We had 600 students there when I went through and my instructor always had 6 students. Getting scheduled is not a problem. Sometimes I would fly 2 missions a day.

FSA has one of the best programs out there. If you want to get hired by a regional fast you are going to need good multi engine time behind you. Make sure you look for a school that has a good multi program where you can build the ME time. At FSA you will do the last three steps of the program in the twin to include your instrument rating. As an instructor there you can expect to have approx 400 hours of multi by the time you hit 1100 total time. Most of the instructors when I was there were getting hired at 800TT/300ME.

I trained at Safety and two small FBO's. There isn't an FBO school out there that will give you the quality training or multi time that FSA will get you. Maybe another larger school like ATP, Embry Riddle or UND, but not a mom and pop FBO.....


Good luck,
PM me if you want and we'll chat...

DE, is that useful enough????

ILS

[Flysher]

I went to FSA and I agree that its a great place to learn. The only downside was the cost. Very very expensive. If cost is not an issue, then go to FSA. Just keep in mind that there are many roads to take to get where you want, all of which produce successful pilots every year. Also like ILS said, you can get done pretty fast at FSA if you fly alot. Dont call them missions though if you go there, they might laugh at you Just kiddin ILS.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by CLR4ILS

I trained at Safety and two small FBO's. There isn't an FBO school out there that will give you the quality training or multi time that FSA will get you. Maybe another larger school like ATP, Embry Riddle or UND, but not a mom and pop FBO.....

That is your opinion. I disagree with it. Strongly.

[bLizZuE]

Ditto.

[Gabito]

Thank you for your comments. all the opinions have been very helpfull. I already visist FSA, Delta Conection and Regional Airline Academy...I think I am ready to take a decision. I know there are many ways to get the tickets, Flying is a passion and I am in it because I liked not for money. Every person has and opinion but if I stay in Puerto Rico Studying at the end it will take a lot of time and a lot of money and will not obtain the quality of tranning that I could get at an academy like FSA. If you analized the costs at the end its almost the same the diference is quality and well structure program.

I don't know if my opiniom is correct but according with my experience, that is my feeling.

Gabito

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"DE, is that useful enough????"

Much better, learning has taken place...

Your kidding right? You have abused your moderating authority again by deleting my original post. You actually think I would ever take anything you say as "something to learn from"?

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

I notice a major difference between Blizzue and ILS's experiences with FSA. Blizzue uses words like "I currently attend" and "I'm currently...". ILS uses words like "I trained at" and "We had...when I went through...".

It makes no difference whether he and I attended at the same time or not. Myself and all of my friends finished the CIME program early and under budget. I think that given I finished the program in the top 5% out of 600 students gives me just a bit more clout than someone who is behind blaming it on WX etc.... I don't care for sniveling babies. Yes, the piper Warriors are early eighties. They are extremely well maintained on a 50 hour progressive MX program and serve their purpose for private and VFR commercial time building. The Seminoles are new fully equipped with HSI, RMI, and dual 430's which are used for the instrument multi training.

I would like to see Blizzue leave FSA after CIME and go to one of your great mom and pop FBO's for his CFI ratings. I gaurantee he would be crawling back for the excellent training and facilities (to include the aircraft) he left behind. I know, because I did my CFI elsewhere (because of wifes job offer) and immediatley ran back to FSA for the CFI through MEI....

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

Of course, what it's like now is most important to a newbie asking questions like Gabito's and, like Blizzue said, a personal visit and dialouge with a current student (off the record) is a must. ]

The school is still one of the best in the nation. It is still "NOW" providing excellent training with great customer service. Yes, when you tour you should talk with the students. FSA will tell you to during the tour. I know because I gave the tours when I worked and attended there.

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"
"There isn't an FBO school out there that will give you the quality training or multi time that FSA will get you"

I totally disagree. Here's a school that I'd use to challenge that statement. http://www.galvinflying.com/GalvinFl...lot%20Training

I have rented A/C at Galvin and flown out of Boeing Field many times. A friend of mine used to instruct there. He is also one of many friends who told me to go to FSA. If I remember correctly, he did not like the amount of "down" time there....

ILS

[RynoB]

I have a friend at FSA right now working on his CFI. He likes the school and the quality of instruction. He did say that the instructors are swamped, and this is one thing leading to delays. Due to scheduling delays, he gets to fly 3 days a week instead of the 5 that he would rather have.

[Doug Taylor]

I think if anyone is looking for a "perfect" institution to train at, they need to look at themselves first to see what environment they'll best learn in.

I've said it a thousand times over the last decade of running the website and I'll say it again, it all depends on what you're looking for and what environment best matches your personality.

If I didn't think the FSA program that value or that 'the planes are old!' or whatever, I wouldn't run the risk of running their advertisements on Jetcareers.com

Ads don't produce much revenue at all so chances of me selling out for an advertiser are straight up ridiculous.

They've got a great program for people who best thrive in a highly structured environment.

But to answer the question (again), keep doing your research, ask lots of questions and do impromtu 'site visits' to places that you're interested in.

[Doug Taylor]

All of the non-sequitor/"my pee pee is bigger'n your pee pee" threads are in "The Lavatory".

I'm starting to feel like an air traffic controller where no one's paying attention to vectors...

[bLizZuE]

Sigh.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by bLizZuE

Sigh.

My sentiments exactly.

[USMCmech]

I will just copy and paste my post from an earlier thread.

Overall, I was very impressed by the whole place, and have no complaints. I now wish I hadn't paid so much, but that was my call.


Pros:

Well set up program.

Good instructors.

Great CFI ground school

Spin training (loved that)

Great maintence.

Large fleet



Cons:

Rigid program

Bad instructors

Cost

"Extra Features" like spatial disorientation traing and CRM class which cost a lot, yet don't add much to your education.

Vero Beach in the winter.



I saw some great instructors at FSA and saw some terrible ones. My CFI for comercial/instrument/ME was terrific. The CFI I had for the instructor course was awful. The ground schools were good, and the CFI ground school was great. However, many common myths, and OWTs were repeated several times.

All the CFIs went through "standardization" class where they were taught to instruct students to a certian standard. This is a good idea, except that once a CFI learned something in "standz" it was not up for debate. I argued with my instructor several times about something I knew to be incorect. I have had to "unlearn" many things I learned there. To be fair most of these are common throughout the country and are not unique to FSA.

Like all of the big schools, you are never really PIC. All solo flights must be aproved by a CFI for Wx and flight planning. This does protect the few idiots out there, but it also dosen't allow the student to make go/nogo decisions by themselves.

The checklists and procedures are well thought out. OTOH they cause students to spend a lot of time head in the cockpit.

I am now teaching at a small school, and I think I give my student's as good a learning experiance as I recived at FSA albeit without a lot of the extra support.

In conclusion I loved my time at FSA, and think it's one of the best schools in the country. Yet it is not without it's faults, and is very expensive.

[pilotots]

Originally Posted by Gabito

I am planning to study aviation, and I am considering the following academies : Pan Am, Regional Airlines and FlightSafety. I will appreciate if somebody who has passed through this experience can give me an opinion about these academies.

Thank you

I attended FSA back in 2002, private to CFI took about 9 months. I was able to fly 5 times a week and I made the most of everyday I had down there. I enjoyed the training and "I" think it was worth the money.

The FBO vs. flight academy vs. a college type flight school (UND, DWC etc) has been debated very very much here. It is a personal decision, an education is what you make of it, it's more about how you learn and the effort you put into it rather than where you learn. I have friends who graduated from a respectable university with a bachelors degree and they're working at home depot. I have other friends who never went to college and have their own small businesses. Flight training much like life is what you make of it.

I will say this bigger and more expensive is not always better. For example, my Honda civic will out last and is more reliable than any Ferrari or Porsche.

[ihavewings]

BEWARE of FlightSafety: I was a student there and had a very difficult time getting my instrument rating there. The Seminole was just to fast for me to catch on to. I suggested doing my rating in one of their instrument rated single engines and they refused. The result was incompleted flights and review boards (actually taking my money), then one day I had a meeting w/Mr. Skovgard (the director) and he terminated my training. Thats right, after spending $80,000 I got kicked out of school. Its not that I was a slacker or anything, I really studied and tried hard. I NEVER missed a lesson or was unprepared for a flight. Its just that I didn't "fit" into the FS way of doing things and they told me to leave. Do I feel it was very unprofessional? Yes. Do I feel like FS did all they could have to help me, a struggling student? NO. Would I recommend FS to anyone? NO WAY. If you don't fit into their "cookie cutter" way of teaching, then you dont belong there. I wish I knew this $80,000 ago. I should have bought my own airplane and hired my own instructor instead of throwing it away at FS. Oh well such is life. If they dont want my money, someone else will...afterall I have enough of it!!!!

[Check_Six]

Originally Posted by ihavewings

BEWARE of FlightSafety: I was a student there and had a very difficult time getting my instrument rating there. The Seminole was just to fast for me to catch on to. I suggested doing my rating in one of their instrument rated single engines and they refused. The result was incompleted flights and review boards (actually taking my money), then one day I had a meeting w/Mr. Skovgard (the director) and he terminated my training. Thats right, after spending $80,000 I got kicked out of school. Its not that I was a slacker or anything, I really studied and tried hard. I NEVER missed a lesson or was unprepared for a flight. Its just that I didn't "fit" into the FS way of doing things and they told me to leave. Do I feel it was very unprofessional? Yes. Do I feel like FS did all they could have to help me, a struggling student? NO. Would I recommend FS to anyone? NO WAY. If you don't fit into their "cookie cutter" way of teaching, then you dont belong there. I wish I knew this $80,000 ago. I should have bought my own airplane and hired my own instructor instead of throwing it away at FS. Oh well such is life. If they dont want my money, someone else will...afterall I have enough of it!!!!

Seriously...stop whining.

FSA isn't for everyone, bud. When I arrived there that fact was made clear both by my instructor and in the fine print. I'm sure if you'd bothered to do a little research you'd have found that it is not Safety's job to spoon feed you through the program. The issue of getting "yellow-sheeted" for incomplete flights and facing the review board is FSA's way of deciding (on a case-by-case basis) whether or not it's a waste of their time and your money to keep you in the program. Skovgaard probably did you a favor by cutting you loose. Do you honestly think that the airlines aren't going to expect you to meet their requirements and operate per their "cookie cutter" standards? If you can't, they'll find someone who will. FSA training is similar to the airlines in that regard...hard work and studying isn't everything. You have to meet the STANDARDS. The program and the standards are preset and I doubt that you spent $80,000 there without even making it past the Instrument Rating (a.k.a. Step IV a/b). I'm sorry if the Seminole is to fast for ya'...but that makes it evident that another school or method of training will be better for you as an individual.

I'm not saying that FSA is perfect, but you need to take a hard look at yourself before ripping on a program that has been successfully producing pilots for years. (And BTW, I'm not affiliated with FSA other than being a grad, so this isn't a company man giving you any kind of party line.)

[bLizZuE]

Originally Posted by Check_Six

I doubt that you spent $80,000 there without even making it past the Instrument Rating (a.k.a. Step IV a/b).

The internet is so great, because everyone assumes they know it all. This person is the hardest working person I have ever met in my life. I, as well as a few other students, were pretty shocked when we heard this had happened. They made it sound like they were doing him a favor, yet he had already spent well over the quota for the rating. It seemed like they milked him for all he had, and then cut him loose to keep their percentages up.

[Check_Six]

Originally Posted by bLizZuE

The internet is so great, because everyone assumes they know it all. This person is the hardest working person I have ever met in my life. I, as well as a few other students, were pretty shocked when we heard this had happened. They made it sound like they were doing him a favor, yet he had already spent well over the quota for the rating. It seemed like they milked him for all he had, and then cut him loose to keep their percentages up.

The internet has nothing to do with my comment. I would have said the same exact words to his face. No need for keyboard-hiding here...I stand behind my statement.

I hate having to repeat myself...but it doesn't matter how hard you work if you can't meet the standards. I would think this is a familiar concept as we (pilots) all must meet the minimum standards (see: PTS) in order to earn each FAA rating. An FAA check airman doesn't ask you if you feel that you've worked hard enough to deserve a rating. He simply ensures that you can meet the requirements. If you can't, then no certificate for you.

I'm sorry that this person was seemingly liked by all and couldn't make the cut, but do you really feel that FSA was out to get him? From your response to my previous comment I think that's a rhetorical question. You obviously do feel that they just took his money and tossed him to the curb.

And I don't claim to know everything, but I'm taking a pretty educated guess that (assuming he only made through Steps I-III + a portion of Step IV) he didn't spend $80,000. Money is money, and it's tough that he spent some of his on lesson retakes and whatnot, but I'm struggling to believe $80,000.

I'm not an a-hole, and I can sympathize with a student struggling through a program. But saying that it is ANY SCHOOL's (not just FSA) fault for you not getting through a rating seems silly. You seem to be making it through the program alright. I made it through. Many others have made it through. But this just wasn't the right place for him. Rather that making an angry post on JC, he should be out finding a program that works for his style of learning. Then, he can make a positive post about the new school and compare the differences of the two programs. That would be more helpful to a prospective student pilots than just trash-talking FSA because you're still burning about a personal issue.

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by ihavewings

BEWARE of FlightSafety: I was a student there and had a very difficult time getting my instrument rating there. The Seminole was just to fast for me to catch on to. I suggested doing my rating in one of their instrument rated single engines and they refused. The result was incompleted flights and review boards (actually taking my money), then one day I had a meeting w/Mr. Skovgard (the director) and he terminated my training. Thats right, after spending $80,000 I got kicked out of school. Its not that I was a slacker or anything, I really studied and tried hard. I NEVER missed a lesson or was unprepared for a flight. Its just that I didn't "fit" into the FS way of doing things and they told me to leave. Do I feel it was very unprofessional? Yes. Do I feel like FS did all they could have to help me, a struggling student? NO. Would I recommend FS to anyone? NO WAY. If you don't fit into their "cookie cutter" way of teaching, then you dont belong there. I wish I knew this $80,000 ago. I should have bought my own airplane and hired my own instructor instead of throwing it away at FS. Oh well such is life. If they dont want my money, someone else will...afterall I have enough of it!!!!

SOMETHING is missing here..... First, they have always allowed students to do their instrument in the single and still do. Second, Skovgard is the fairest person there. He also works with the best interest of the student in mind, always. Third, $80,000 by the time you hit step 4, like I said, there is something missing that you are not owning up to.

When I was there, there was a friend of Check Six's and mine that couldn't make it past private. It wasn't the book knowledge, it was the stick skills. After the review board and Safety sending him up with several check airmen to help him out, they suggested maybe this wasn't for him. After spending 1 and a half times what it should have cost for private and still not being able to pass the ride, he agreed and moved on to another career. The point is, he owned up to it and excepted his fate.

I find it hard to believe that you not only spent $80K by step 4, but that FSA would actually let you spend $80K by step 4.

I hate to say it, but if you cannot pass step 4 at Safety in a 140 knot Seminole, you are going to have a hell of a time in a sim ride with an airline.

good luck with your career. I hope it works out for you...

ILS

[bLizZuE]

Originally Posted by CLR4ILS

I find it hard to believe that you not only spent $80K by step 4, but that FSA would actually let you spend $80K by step 4.
ILS

believe it.