Advanced Airline Training Program

[USMCmech]

ILS the thing I think that we are disagreeing with each other on is that to be a compente and safe airline pilot you need BOTH the thechnial skills and the experiance. If you are missing one or the other you are not ready.

My point of contention (and UPSs I belive) is that while FSA and their direct track does an excelent job teaching the technial skills (systems, procedures, and sim time) untill you have the experiance you are not really ready.

These training schools have realized that the technial skills are the easy part, and you can push someone through that half of their education in a few months.

However they still lack the required experiance that only flight time making decisions as PIC can provide.

[DE727UPS]

"And the day you do not spend every waking minute on this website, someone might almost begin to think you actually have a life.."

Oh ILS, my life is fine. I'm a mod at Jetcareers BECAUSE I spend a lot of time here. I know how that must bother you...

[bLizZuE]

The personal badgering has really started to bother me. You're embarrasing us.

[NJA_Capt]

Originally Posted by CLR4ILS

Reading these posts/forums on JC tells me one thing...Too many of these new and somewhat seasoned pilots/CFI's have a huge confidence problem. It is almost scary...ILS

And it shows established members of the aviation community that too many of these new and somewhat seasoned (ATP,FSA, EiEiO) pilots/CFI's have a huge overconfidence problem. That's scarier.

[USMCmech]

Originally Posted by NJA_Capt

And it shows established members of the aviation community that too many of these new and somewhat seasoned (ATP,FSA, EiEiO) pilots/CFI's have a huge overconfidence problem. That's scarier.

What could be more simple than flying skydivers? You just take off, climb to 10,000ft everybody hops out, and you land. No complicated systems, no instrument flying, peice of cake.

A Cessna 182, no problem it's just a basic fixed gear single. I've been trained by one of the best schools in the country. In fact, as a flight instructor I'm over qualified.

It's not like I could kill myself and 4 other people.

But I nearly did.


It's not the fall that kills you, nor is it the sudden stop at the end. It's the sudden shocking realization that yes you are that F%^*ing stupid.

I would much rather fly with a pilot that is completely aware that he does NOT know everything and can easily make a fatal mistake, than someone who is "confident" in their skills and abilities.

[killbilly]

Originally Posted by USMCmech

A Cessna 182, no problem it's just a basic fixed gear single. I've been trained by one of the best schools in the country. In fact, as a flight instructor I'm over qualified.

It's not like I could kill myself and 4 other people.

But I nearly did.

USMCmech - would you be willing/comfortable talking about what happened here that you're referencing? I, for one, would find it interesting to see what happened and what you learned, but I totally understand if you don't want to talk about it in a public forum.

[USMCmech]

No problem, I've shared this on the board before. This is what I submited to Flying magazine for "I learned about flying from that"

My second load, my first emergency!

I drove to the DZ with my logbook and the advice that they might need pilots. I had about 350 hrs and a brand new CFI cert. Previously I had flown a few hours right seat in a Twin Bonanza at another DZ, so I had an idea what to expect.

The DZ owner/chief pilot landed after a load and I introduced myself, and asked if they might need somebody. He said yes, because he was doing all the flying and wanted to get back to jumping. We put the right seat in and did a few T&Gs. Since I did OK, we took up a load of 3 plus the DZ owner riding right behind me. We did 3 loads like that, and I did OK. I was a little overwhelmed, but was picking it up OK.

We planed to do a 4th load under supervision, but a fourth jumper wanted to go, so the DZ owner sent me on my way. I did a good take off and climb to 10,500 and released the jumpers. During my descent I backed the RPM to 2200 like I was told to. I made a good approach and landing with out ever adjusting the throttle.

This DZ was on it's own 3,000ft grass strip. One thing about this place was that it was set in a small depression. The first 1/3 of the runway was a descending slope and the rest was a gentle up slope. Previously I had been airborne by the low point, and climbed away fine.

The next load (my 2nd solo) I had two tandem combos. I started up and taxied into takeoff position which was right near the packing building, and picnic tables. When I added full throttle I heard it speed up, then slow back down. I continued with my take off not realizing the significance of what I had heard. As I passed my usual lift off point I realized that something was wrong. I looked at the engine controls and didn't see anything wrong. The mixture knob stuck out about 1/4 inch at full rich, and I noticed the prop knob doing the same thing. I thought this was normal for this plane.

Very quickly I passed the point where I could have stopped safely. I finally lifted off well past where I should have. The stall horn was blaring, and I could feel the controls buffeting at the edge of a stall. Knowing I needed more speed I retracted the flaps, much too soon. I felt the A/C sink, and I looked out to the side. I was passing the brush lining the end of the runway. I couldn't see the tops of some Texas scrub Oak. Finally I pushed all the engine controls forward. The second I pushed the prop knob forward the engine speed right up, and we started climbing.

I HAD NEVER RESET THE PROP RPM FROM THE LAST LOAD!

That was the closest I have ever come to crashing, and the most scared I have ever been in my life. To my credit, I didn't panic and flew the plane all the way through the emergency. However this should have never happened

I learned several lessons from this incident, and I tell this tale to all my flight students now.

1 Use your checklists. If I had done a basic GUMP check before landing on the previous flight I would have been fine.

2 If something is wrong on take off, don't waste time, just abort. Then figure out what was wrong.

3 Keep flying the plane and don’t panic. I didn’t have much to work with, but I used it anyway, all those hours of slow flight paid off.

4 Never assume anything. If something doesn’t look right check it.

A very simple mistake, one that I had read about in accident reports, and always told myself that I could never be that stupid. However in a moment of excitement/distraction/carelessnes, I made that mistake.

That one incident converted what was false confidence, into humility and a desire to learn. Confidence must always be temperd by a healthy dose of humility.

Chuck Yeager groundlooped an AT-6 a few years ago.

I've retrained a 747 captian in how to fly a C-172.

A througholy trained profesional crew of two tried to take off on the wrong runway in Lexington KY.



It's the ones who DON'T have "a confidence problem" that frighten me.

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by USMCmech

No problem, I've shared this on the board before. This is what I submited to Flying magazine for "I learned about flying from that"



A very simple mistake, one that I had read about in accident reports, and always told myself that I could never be that stupid. However in a moment of excitement/distraction/carelessnes, I made that mistake.

That one incident converted what was false confidence, into humility and a desire to learn. Confidence must always be temperd by a healthy dose of humility.

Chuck Yeager groundlooped an AT-6 a few years ago.

I've retrained a 747 captian in how to fly a C-172.

A througholy trained profesional crew of two tried to take off on the wrong runway in Lexington KY.



It's the ones who DON'T have "a confidence problem" that frighten me.

I am glad it worked out all right for you. I would chalk that up to complacency. You trained at FSA where you were made fully aware of the importance of checklist and procedure usage. You for what ever reason (excitement etc.) you chose not to use the checklist provided for the A/C. It could have killed everyone on board. Don't get me wrong, you are not alone. It happens EVERY day at ops all over the U.S.. This is the problem I have with "most" of your small mom and pop schools. They are the ones that usually make the headlines.

That incident has nothing to do with being confident in your skills. It has everything to do with throwing procedure completly out the window. If the A/C owner did not have a proper checklist with procedures set forth by the manufacturer in the A/C, then yes by all means use the "GUMP" flow.

How often do you ask your students and initial instructor applicants if they feel they could put down a plane safely on the ground if they experienced a total engine failure? If they have their engine out procedure memorized and know how to identify a clear landing area, they should be "confident" in their abilities to land the plane safely. Most are not. I have never had an engine failure in flight BUT.... I know and am confident that I know my procedure well enough to set that plane down safely.

Do not confuse "confidence" in the A/C with some of the "hazardous attitudes". Not the same at all... Your incident was a combination of complacency and a few of those attitudes...

Your example is exactly why I strictly follow checklists and procedure. If that fails, then you move to pilot judgement to handle the problem and to find the best course of action...

Do you think that pilots that train in the military make it through with a "lack" of confidence in the A/C? My cousin is out in Texas training in the Airforce right now and he says it is easy to identify the ones that have a lack of confidence in their ability to understand and fly the A/C.

Like I said, I am very glad you came out of that OK....

ILS

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by USMCmech

ILS the thing I think that we are disagreeing with each other on is that to be a compente and safe airline pilot you need BOTH the thechnial skills and the experiance. If you are missing one or the other you are not ready.

My point of contention (and UPSs I belive) is that while FSA and their direct track does an excelent job teaching the technial skills (systems, procedures, and sim time) untill you have the experiance you are not really ready.

These training schools have realized that the technial skills are the easy part, and you can push someone through that half of their education in a few months.

However they still lack the required experiance that only flight time making decisions as PIC can provide.

I will agree that experience or time in the A/C is important. The problem I have is with the new hire candidate that meets the mins of 1000/100 that just spent 600+ hours flying pre-privates to the same practice area and back and on the same x-countries. They have everything memorized from airspace, to checkpoints on the ground, to frequencies. Take them out of their cozy little box and see what happens...

Remember when you did your training at FSA and you had ALL of the approaches from Palm Beach to Titusville memorized including the final approach course/radial, MDA/DA and frequencies? What happened the first time you flew an approach outside of that area that you had never flown before. I'll bet you were a little behind the A/C right?

That 1000/100 example above is 9 out of 10 applicants. Sorry, but I'll take the direct track guy at 300-500 hours that has been through extensive advanced instrument training in the Seminole and SIM...

ILS

[DE727UPS]

"Sorry, but I'll take the direct track guy..."

You can take whoever you want but the industry seems pretty content with 1000/100 CFI's with time/experience/background you don't consider valuable. Would you dare hazard a guess as to the number of guys hired into the industry via FSA direct track in the last year compared to the number of guys with 1000/100? I'd have to guess a fraction of one percent.

"Sorry, but I'll take the direct track guy"

Sorry, but I take the 1000/100 guy...

[jonboy34]

Originally Posted by CLR4ILS

That 1000/100 example above is 9 out of 10 applicants. Sorry, but I'll take the direct track guy at 300-500 hours that has been through extensive advanced instrument training in the Seminole and SIM...

ILS

Most of my friends that did the direct track had about 220-250tt, not 500, and none outside of the safe training environment world (nothing against that) If they had 500, that would be pretty silly to pay $25K when you can get hired at ASA or ExpressJet or comair with another hundred hours- literally.
I went to FSA and really considered the direct track, but then got my CFI and taught pt 61 for a year, loved every second of it, then got hired at SKYW at 1000/100 exactly, and looking back would do the same thing if had to do it over, every experience I had instructing whether or not it made me better to fly at a 121 airline, I learned something from and had a great time.
Honestly the training is so good here at SKYW I don't think it would matter which of the 2 routes being discussed you take, the only ones who are having trouble are usually the old guys trying to change a career with like 40 VFR hours in the past 3 years...
So I would probably lean towards the 1000 hour guy, because well he can upgrade much quicker, and has had the other experiences so at least 121 flying is not all that he knows... but i think its the attitude of the person more than anything, someone who in sim training isn't going to act like he knows everything just because he's done it in the sim once or twice. Most of the rest of us can handle a V1 cut or single engine ILS hand flown after our sim training is complete...

[badco99]

Jonboy,

Congrats on the SKYW job! I'm sure that Learjet training at FSI ATL helped a lot.

[jonboy34]

Originally Posted by badco99

Jonboy,

Congrats on the SKYW job! I'm sure that Learjet training at FSI ATL helped a lot.

Thanks buddy, Im here @ FSI long beach now for my sims, finish tomorrow. Yeah I think the main thing was that I know how to manage the autopilot efficiently, where guys that haven't had the experience in advanced automation get lost sometimes.

I was looking for you here! Anyway you should call ASA back man, I have friends in class there now and nobody wants to come out here to LA and thats where everyone in class is getting assigned. I bet if u call them and tell them that you'd love to come out to LA they'd throw you in the next class...think about it! Pay may suck but this job seems really fun!

[SteveC]

The best thing about Direct Track is that it makes money for FSA.

[FSIPILOT]

[quote=Aviator_Bakeek;450719] I think of it like this, many of us learned how to fly for the first time and know everything for our Private checkride in give or take 6 weeks. Why cant you learn to fly a ERJ in 6 weeks? QUOTE]

Wow. Not even in the ballpark.

[DE727UPS]

I think he's not in the house anymore.

[SmitteyB]

Originally Posted by Aviator_Bakeek

UPS, thanks for the input again.

I am still wondering why then is it an option? Why do 4 or 5 airlines even bother taking direct trackee's? How would the industry realistically be effected without direct trackee's? And, has it been proven that direct trackee's are proven a poor resource in the cockpit (I am talking NTSB reports related to runway incursions, accidents, etc.)?

Because a DT (Direct Trackers) chances of sucessfully making it through training are higher than a 1200TT CFI. This doesn't mean the CFI is any less talented or smart. Sim Training is a DT'ers 2nd time around the block. Most DT'ers have already completed a type and/or special certification. ala: ATPs Regional Jet Standards Certification Program.

Airlines lose less money due to a smaller amount of potential failures.

Let's say you bought a house with nice new carpets and wanted to get a dog.

Would you go get a puppy that could urinate all over the new carpet?

Or would you go get a puppy that is house trained? What will save you more money?

[RynoB]

I would buy the dog I liked best.

[pavelump]

I'd say that the direct track puppy would stand a better chance of wetting his or her seat when the ##### hit the fan...