Advanced Airline Training Program - Page 3

CLR4ILS · October 19th, 2006, 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"I know one of your comrads at UPS that thinks you are an idiot.... He is senior to you I might add. Oh yeah, and he recommends Flight Safety and the direct track to people"

He's quite entitled to his opinion on FSA and me being an idiot. Tell him to introduce himself someday.

You do not want to debate with him. He will have you crawling into a hole to hide. He is a sharp cat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"
"I NEVER blamed FSA for ASA stopping the hiring and niether should you. FSA has zero control over ASA's decisions and they don't let FSA know anything until the day it happens...."

Yeah, FSA can't control the hiring situation at their partner regionals. ASA decided to stop hiring and people got burned. One of several good reasons not to do direct track. Wanna hear more?

The program has worked out extremely well for 250+ candidates. I would say the program has been a success and I believe the regionals feel the same about the quality as well...

Quote:

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"
"However, if you keep beating them up over something only ASA had control over, they might not be very sympathetic"

Sounds like a threat to me. So Badco can't express his opinion now without worrying what FSA management thinks? This whole site is about freedom of speech and telling it like it is. Badco shouldn't have to worry about it.

If you were as smart as you think you are, then you would realize that it is common sense not to rock the boat when FSA does NOT HAVE TO give you any recurrent training free of charge. They do it because you are a customer and that is how they do business. Any idea what it costs to run a level D sim per hour? Approx. $2,000 an hour last I checked.

I made a phone call today to an old friend at the academy and did some research. From what I found out FSA did not just send him packing. It's not their style. They offered him some alternatives. They have tried to help him out. If he is holding out for ASA and not willing to go to one of the other regionals then that is his decision. I too chose ASA and elected not to interview with Eagle. Maybe, BADCO can shed some light on this subject...

Quote:

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"
"It was a typo smart guy....."

You started it....

Yeah, your right. I did. Only for kicks and giggles though...

ILS

Fandango Flyer · October 19th, 2006, 01:42

you are the furthest thing from a "moderator" than i could ever imagine.

Aviator_Bakeek · October 19th, 2006, 03:52

Wow, I sure missed alot while I was gone.

To everyone that has been dedicated to posting in this thread (727UPS, CAV, ILS, Launchpad), I really appreciate the input. It really shows that whether we all disagree with each other on everything or agree on everything, we stick to our guns and keep the insults to a minimum. Personally, I would be honored to fly with any of yall whether or not we agree on anything at all. If I can say one thing for sure about all of you, is that you really love aviation.

Badco, I had read about your misfortune on other posts and am sorry that had to happen to you. I know I wouldnt want to be in your place.

ILS, I think your new nickname should be "the hammer".

ananoman · October 19th, 2006, 04:39

ILS, it is one thing to have an opinion. But this bashing has gotten out of hand. I think we can all agree that FSA is a good school. Don has even agreed with this in other post, he just doesn't think it is worth the cost. Same for Badco, he never said the training he received there was sub par, just that in his opinion the direct track is not worth it. So, why not just agree to disagree and let it go?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CLR4ILS

Any idea what it costs to run a level D sim per hour? Approx. $2,000 an hour last I checked.

Who ever told you this is smoking crack. Most of the cost of running a sim is building the thing. Once you have one, they are not that expensive to run. Most of the type ratings consist of around 12 hrs in the sim and a 2 hr checkride. But the price they charge has many variables. Usually the bigger the airplane, the more they can charge. Do you really think FSI is going to be charging $28k to type someone in the Citation Mustang when it comes out? Pretty steep for an airplane that cost $2.6 million. It would be cheaper to train in the airplane. If FSA puts someone back into the sim before they go to school, it doesn't cost them much.

SteveC · October 19th, 2006, 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fandango Flyer

you are the furthest thing from a "moderator" than i could ever imagine.

Are you saying that just because he's a mod he can't have an opinion and speak his mind?

badco99 · October 19th, 2006, 13:42

ASA called this morning to "update their database." Told them I was no longer interested. I should have asked about class dates, but they woke me up and caught me off guard. Oh well, that's life I guess. To be perfectly honest I don't feel like I'm ready to go to ASA right now. It's not that I don't think I could do it, but I'm not instrument current and I know for a fact the first time I got into that plane I would probably be overwhelmed by the radios and everything else because I haven't flown in so long. Last thing I flew was a two seat Diamond out of Long Beach. I could fly the plane, but everything else sucked big time.

Onto the latest comments. First, another airline. None of the airlines accept laterals. I know marketing was trying to see if Pinnacle would take me, but nothing ever came of it. That was the ONLY alternative they offered me. I tried the Business Jet Direct and that just turned into a big cluster. And I used my couple hours of extra time in the sim before I left. Regardless, I don't want to shell out another few hundred I don't have to get back to Vero to do it.

Cost of the ERJ sim is about $1000/hr. The training I was getting in LGB on the EMB-120 was worth about $12,000 as I recall. I'm sure bigger and better planes cost more.

As for blaming FSA, I don't blame them. But considering I invested over $80,000 in flight training there I'd expect more than, "It's out of our hands." I think more people could have been involved. Someone should have said, "I don't care if you only want 4 direct track in a class. They spent their money to work for your airline, you're having classes so get them in already." If I was good enough to hire in the first place then it shouldn't matter how many direct tracks are in the class.

The instructor ratings...that was mentioned while I was still in FL waiting. As i recall the CFII was $2000-3000, and MEI about the same. So lets say $6000. Who wants to give me the $6000 to get those ratings??? And I do mean give, not loan. Sure it may only be a couple grand, but when you only have about $200 to your name that's a little hard. I tried to get an instructor job, but since I hadn't flown a PPL maneuver in over a year they wanted me to get 3-4 hours practice before they'd go any further. Again, a few hundred I didn't have to spend.

I've been keeping this quite, but here is a cold hard FACT. Between my student loan and my father (cause he convinced me to do the direct track and loaned me the money) I am about $150,000 in debt. Lets see the break down....Flight training: $80,500, Interst to date: $20,000, father: $30,000 ($22.5k for direct track, the rest for other things like moving and paying off my student loan since I can't do it right now). That leaves about $20,000 for living expenses. Did I blow some of it on stuff I didn't need, yes. But the majority went to bills, food, etc.

"Sounds like a threat to me. So Badco can't express his opinion now without worrying what FSA management thinks? This whole site is about freedom of speech and telling it like it is. Badco shouldn't have to worry about it."

How's this for worrying about FSA management...they can take a flying leap. I was going to say something else but it would probably get edited. Scovgard, Wakefield and probably Haland need to go. From what understand they were on their way out when the big wigs from NY decided to fire all the part time people instead, which included a lot of GREAT ground instructors. By all means, go to FSA to do your training, its great. BUT don't do direct track and don't work there until they are gone. The only way I'd recommend DT now is if you are given a 100% guarantee that upon completion of the program you will be in the NEXT available ground school.

WELL, that got a little long. Believe me when I say I'd rather be flying than going back to law enforcement. I LOVE to fly. It has been my first choice of careers for as long as I can remember, law enforecment was a distant second. I wish I could still do it, but due to money and timing it just hasn't worked out. It's not like I didn't try. I'm not religious and I can't say I believe in destiny, but maybe things really do happen for a reason.

Blue skies and fly safe everyone.

Doug Taylor · October 20th, 2006, 13:45

Sorry folks, I generally haven't spent a lot of time in the FSA thread because it's been historically quiet.

This is my opinion. It's 'stream of consciousness' so I might ramble.

There are five distinct "training circles".

One training circle is the military. People that have the qualifications for the military and have a strong desire to serve their country generally take this route. Highly structured program, intense training, little opportunity for extra training and zero spoon feeding. Perform at 100% or become the "chief bottle washer" of your Air Force base. Taxpayer-financed training, but you repay that cost with a charge to defend the nation with your life.

Another training circle are the FBO/fixed base operators. Spread across the country at small, medium and large airports offering a variety of services. Some have stuctured programs, some don't. Costs are generally lower than other training circles, but you get the same FAA certificate than you get anywhere else. Mostly meant for people who want to train at their local airport at their own pace. Less structure and less overhead mean a lower cost.

Flight Academies are another circle. Some students perform best in a tightly structured (for the lack of a better term) quasi-military style program with performance goals, a tight syllabus and whatnot. Additional structure means a higher cost than a FBO/fixed base operator.

Another training circle are accelerated (training) programs. If you're a self-starter, learn fast on your own and generally (unlike me cuz I'm a little slow) have the ability to get concepts and manuevers down pat the first time, you can save time and sometimes money with a program like this. Costs vary depending on the company.

And the last circle is the Aviation University. A mix of Flight Academy added into a collegiate environment.

As a potential student, you've really got to look at yourself first and figure out how you learn and what you want to get out of training in order to decide which training circle you'd do best in. Some people need a red-hot fire poker in their rump during training and others want a 'peace train' approach. Comparing prices and programs across circles isn't a valid comparison unless you recognize what environment you feel you'll best succeed in.

Focus primarily on the training and the environment that best matches the way you realistically learn.

bLizZuE · October 20th, 2006, 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by ananoman

ILS, it is one thing to have an opinion. But this bashing has gotten out of hand. I think we can all agree that FSA is a good school. Don has even agreed with this in other post, he just doesn't think it is worth the cost. Same for Badco, he never said the training he received there was sub par, just that in his opinion the direct track is not worth it. So, why not just agree to disagree and let it go?Who ever told you this is smoking crack. Most of the cost of running a sim is building the thing. Once you have one, they are not that expensive to run. Most of the type ratings consist of around 12 hrs in the sim and a 2 hr checkride. But the price they charge has many variables. Usually the bigger the airplane, the more they can charge. Do you really think FSI is going to be charging $28k to type someone in the Citation Mustang when it comes out? Pretty steep for an airplane that cost $2.6 million. It would be cheaper to train in the airplane. If FSA puts someone back into the sim before they go to school, it doesn't cost them much.

I'd also like to see less slandering of people just because you disagree with them.

DE727UPS · October 20th, 2006, 15:21

"Sorry folks, I generally haven't spent a lot of time in the FSA thread because it's been historically quiet"

Somebody must have complained...

Honestly, this place is far from quiet. Pull up a chair and sit down, Doug.

Cherokee_Cruiser · October 20th, 2006, 15:57

I'd like to thank Doug for opening up this thread again.

DE,

Sometimes it seems like you abuse your priviledge as a moderator.

This thread had not gone out of control. It is 3 pages long, it has not erupted into a fight, and there has been no name-calling.

It seems like this thread is very informative, and if anything, someone somwhere will learn from it.

But yet, you closed this thread.

I understand you don't like Direct Track, so I hope you aren't letting this cloud you. Why close a thread if it's peaceful, no fighting/bashing, and very informative? I say let this run, people can only learn from it. IF, and IF, it gets out of hand, then go ahead and shut 'er down. But until then, lets be open, no ?

Doug, again, thanks for opening this thread again.

DE727UPS · October 20th, 2006, 16:12

"It is 3 pages long, it has not erupted into a fight, and there has been no name-calling"

How long it was is irrelavent. In my opinion it did erupt into a fight with insults and a threats. I saw it as only getting worse and the first posters questions had certainly been addressed. I thought it was best to let Badco make his rebuttle to ILS and stop it there. Someone disagreed. Complained to Doug. And here we are. Game on...

"Sometimes it seems like you abuse your priviledge as a moderator"

Pretty easy to say when your opinion is on the other side of the fence from mine. I'm sure ILS will agree with you.

"Why close a thread if it's peaceful, no fighting/bashing..."

Are you serious? Peaceful? No bashing? LOL, not sure we're reading the same thread.

CLR4ILS · October 20th, 2006, 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"It is 3 pages long, it has not erupted into a fight, and there has been no name-calling"

How long it was is irrelavent. In my opinion it did erupt into a fight with insults and a threats. I saw it as only getting worse and the first posters questions had certainly been addressed. I thought it was best to let Badco make his rebuttle to ILS and stop it there. Someone disagreed. Complained to Doug. And here we are. Game on...

"Sometimes it seems like you abuse your priviledge as a moderator"

Pretty easy to say when your opinion is on the other side of the fence from mine. I'm sure ILS will agree with you.

"Why close a thread if it's peaceful, no fighting/bashing..."

Are you serious? Peaceful? No bashing? LOL, not sure we're reading the same thread.

Don, you do abuse your authority (if you want to call it that) as a moderator. You Conveniently closed the thread after Badco said exactly what you wanted to hear.

I see flags all over this topic BTW.... If Badco wants to tell ASA to bag it. Thats his mistake. The money has been paid, the training has been done, and if there were a class date in the future, I would take it and ask FSA to help get me current.

Badco, sorry bro, but I think you are shooting yourself in the foot by turning your head on FSA and ASA. You might not like being on the force again. You may wish you could take that class date when it arises, or work something out with Safety for instructing or something.

Think about it....

And Don, don't get yourself all worked up pal over one student who had a disapointing experience at FSA. This isn't Gulfstream we are talking about here. I know FSA has made an effort to make things right. I have spoken with some of my old Colleagues down there. If Badco wanted, something will happen for him. Flight Safety International and the academy treat their customers well and always put them first...

ILS

Cherokee_Cruiser · October 20th, 2006, 16:48

For the record, I never complained to Doug about this thread being closed. Looking back, maybe I should have.

Anyway, Don,

Quote:

Don, you do abuse your authority (if you want to call it that) as a moderator. You Conveniently closed the thread after Badco said exactly what you wanted to hear.

I agree with ILS.

Cherokee_Cruiser · October 20th, 2006, 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by badco99

ASA called this morning to "update their database." Told them I was no longer interested. I should have asked about class dates, but they woke me up and caught me off guard. Oh well, that's life I guess. To be perfectly honest I don't feel like I'm ready to go to ASA right now. It's not that I don't think I could do it, but I'm not instrument current and I know for a fact the first time I got into that plane I would probably be overwhelmed by the radios and everything else because I haven't flown in so long.

Quote:

Believe me when I say I'd rather be flying than going back to law enforcement. I LOVE to fly. It has been my first choice of careers for as long as I can remember, law enforecment was a distant second.

Badco, I can't believe you told them you aren't interested. The second portion of your thread I quoted clearly spells that you love flying. Yes, I understand you haven't been current, but, I'm sure you can try your best and get current.

Your first paragraph I quoted sounds like someone who just isn't willing to try aviation anymore, and just wants to quit. But then your second portion I quoted sounds like you would be a hard worker, and would stop at nothing to get that goal.

Where there's a will, there's a way.

I'm sorry how things have turned out for you.

But you turning down the ASA when they called for an update, is your own free will decision. Honestly, as much as you may have learned and gained from the $22.5k , by turning ASA down, my opinion is that money has just been wasted. You spent your money to go to ASA, and once ASA called you up for an update, and maybe a potential early 2007 class, you turned them down. Now if you really loved law enforcement, and were back doing that, and very happy, then I wouldn't have been saying all this stuff. But the fact that you mentioned that you've always loved flying and LE was always second place, then I feel like you should have given everything you got into making ASA work.

Sorry for the way this turned out, but then again, you turned down ASA just now out of your own free will.

I don't wish you ill, of course not! I wish you the best wherever your future takes you.

CLR4ILS · October 20th, 2006, 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherokee_Cruiser

For the record, I never complained to Doug about this thread being closed. Looking back, maybe I should have.

Anyway, Don,

I agree with ILS.

For the record... I did and I think we all know that big D knows why as well..

ILS

amorris311 · October 20th, 2006, 21:21

cant we all just get along? give the mods some credit they have to judge a ton of posts and keep stuff in line. we all make mistakes and since doug is a reasonable person he reopened it. also im sure there is more to it then we all know.

DE727UPS · October 21st, 2006, 00:17

In my opinion, the thread should have been closed based on what I've already talked about. Doug disagreed and reopened the thread. That's the way it is here at JC, no big deal.

I don't believe I abuse my power as a mod, though I certainly understand why you two (or three) feel that way. Feel free to take it up with the management at any time.

There are some people at JC that will ALWAYS think I'm abusing my power as a mod cause they don't like what I say, the way I say it, or just think mods shouldn't have an opinion or should steer away from controversy. Sorry, but I don't see it that way. The only things I really feel strongly about are super low time jet F/O's, scabs, Gulfstream, and Riddle. This thread just happened to include one of those areas.

ananoman · October 21st, 2006, 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by CLR4ILS

I don't have to work for an airline to know key people in the industry. Don't you remember, I know one of your comrads at UPS that thinks you are an idiot.... He is senior to you I might add. Oh yeah, and he recommends Flight Safety and the direct track to people. He must not know what he is talking about huh? I mean, you know, because he is not you.....

ILS

So, you throw stuff like this around, then you complain that Don is abusing his authority? That makes me laugh. I also think it is funny that most everyone I know of who argues that the Direct Track is such a great program and that it's graduates are God's gift to aviation, have never flown a jet.

In the end, it really doesn't matter what any of us think any way. The programs are out there, and people are going to pay the money and take the ride. Things will probably work out for most people. If it didn't, FSA would not offer the program, since they are not in the business of screwing people.

After enough baby sitting, the graduates will go on to successful careers. You just have to decide if it is really worth it to pay that much money to get into that right seat. I personally would rather not have to worry about how I am going to make my loan payments every month as a first year FO that makes around $20k per year. From personal experience, I will tell you that having those loans really limits your options. One of the reasons I am not flying for a regional is because I could not afford to. Not that I am complaining. My pay and QOL is much higher where I am at.

To me, if someone really wants to get that turbine PIC in a hurry, you would be better off instructing and getting on with one of the regionals like Great Lakes that is known for quick upgrades. Sure the pay sucks, but some would say that it is 'good for the industry' and you get into that all important left seat in a hurry. Going direct track then sitting in the right seat at Eagle for the next 8 years makes no sense to me.

Cav · October 21st, 2006, 13:05

Exactly what I was thinking. It's funny that those with the strongest opinions in favor of direct track HAVE NEVER EVEN FLOWN FOR AN AIRLINE and then turn around and tell those that do we have no idea what we are talking about. Precisely why I don't put much stock in their opinion and choose to spend my time steering students away from direct track.

The benefit is not worth the risk. But most importantly direct track is commoditises the airline pilot career only slightly less than the likes of Gulfstream. It is the direct result of what I like to call the "microwave generation." Instant gratification regardless of price. What's wrong with good ole' fashioned hard work? But I guess that takes too much effort and time. We should be making it harder to become an airline pilot not easier.

Carry on Don, keep telling them what they don't want to hear.

badco99 · October 21st, 2006, 16:22

Everyone seems to forget that a big factor in my decision has to do with money, money I don't have. Now while FSA may look out for their customers they are still a business. Go back to FSA and instruct??? OK, well, the only way I can do that is to get my CFII and re-interview. Money. Go and get recurrent...money. Are we seeing a pattern yet? Money, money, money.

Did I shoot myself in the foot, maybe. I've really just hit that point where I've decided to cut my losses for the moment and move on. I haven't been moving anywhere in almost 10 months. When I get back on with the PD I'll be making almost $50,000 a year. I'll be able to pay my bills and still have a little left over to go fly every month. Hopefully I'll even be able to get a few friends to go with to help foot the bill. What I'd like to do is look into instructing. With my schedule I'll work 7 days out of every 14. So I'm hoping I can fit some instructing on the side in there. I'm sure flying in the DC area is a great learning experience.

As for Don abusing his power...of course he is, he's a jerk.

Really, Don and I have different opinions and have had it out in the past. While I still don't agree with him 100% I can see where he's coming from. He's giving his honest opinion and just trying to give newbie pilots a good direction to go in. (Never thought I'd say any of that). I think his biggest problem is he comes across as a little harsh most of the time. No matter what I'm looking forward to lunch with him next Saturday. Hope to see a few others there as well.

Aviator_Bakeek · October 21st, 2006, 19:08

I thought this thread was long over, more catching up to do.

I actually opened this thread to find out about credentials of the students who went through the program, I never asked for anyones opinion about whether or not they agreed with direct track or not.

DE, your the moderator and can do what you want. If you feel best to close a thread then close it, the worst that will come out of it is what happened in this case where it had to be reopened.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cav

Exactly what I was thinking. It's funny that those with the strongest opinions in favor of direct track HAVE NEVER EVEN FLOWN FOR AN AIRLINE and then turn around and tell those that do we have no idea what we are talking about. Precisely why I don't put much stock in their opinion and choose to spend my time steering students away from direct track.

I certainly hope you werent talking about me when it came to this post. You may need to go back through the posts and get yourself up to date if you were.

badco99 · October 21st, 2006, 19:59

Just mention direct track and this is pretty much what happens. This thread has actually been pretty tame compared to some others.

ananoman · October 22nd, 2006, 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aviator_Bakeek

I thought this thread was long over, more catching up to do.

I actually opened this thread to find out about credentials of the students who went through the program, I never asked for anyones opinion about whether or not they agreed with direct track or not.

DE, your the moderator and can do what you want. If you feel best to close a thread then close it, the worst that will come out of it is what happened in this case where it had to be reopened.

I certainly hope you werent talking about me when it came to this post. You may need to go back through the posts and get yourself up to date if you were.

It is a shame that this happens. I don't think anyone holds it against people who bring these topics up. That is the whole point of this forum. But, you have already seen that most of us who have moved on to the right seat think that these programs are not a good idea.

It is also quite possible that if you ask a long time airline pilot what they think, that they will tell you to that these programs are a great idea. To get some idea where they are coming from, you have to look into the seniority system at the airlines and realize how important that number will be to your life. You also have to remember that none of them have had to fly with a 250 hour co-pilot, unless they were in the military (these guys will have lots of jokes about near death experiences).

I personally know of at least one person who was helped a great deal by going through the direct track program. He made it to ASA pre 9/11. If he would have gone the instructor route, he would have been instructing for another 2 years before the airlines started to hire again. So, yes it can work for you. Many of us just don't think it is a good idea.

I remember talking to a couple of instrument students back when I was an instructor about how they should set hard limits for themselves after they got their rating. I was trying to explain to them that just because they had a new license in their pocket that said they could shoot approaches to 200' and 1/2sm, they were not really qualified to do so. The two students were rather argumentative. "What do you mean? I have the license, so I am qualified," was their argument. I coulden't get them to understand that real life is different than lifting the foggles on a clear day with your CFI sitting next to you. The point of all this is, those two really didn't know what they didn't know.

It is easy to pat yourself on the back after getting your commercial at 250 hours. But you really have a lot to learn about flying. And, the things you need to learn can't be taught in a level D sim. They are not part of an airplane specific training program. Those already assume you have a high level of judgement and general flying knowledge. All you will learn is how to fly a specific airplane.

It is not until you get out into the world that you will really learn. Many of us think that this should be done before you go to the airlines.

Cav · October 22nd, 2006, 12:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aviator_Bakeek

I thought this thread was long over, more catching up to do.

I actually opened this thread to find out about credentials of the students who went through the program, I never asked for anyones opinion about whether or not they agreed with direct track or not.

DE, your the moderator and can do what you want. If you feel best to close a thread then close it, the worst that will come out of it is what happened in this case where it had to be reopened.

I certainly hope you werent talking about me when it came to this post. You may need to go back through the posts and get yourself up to date if you were.

Nope a general statement. I realize you are just looking for some answers.

DE727UPS · October 23rd, 2006, 04:19

"I also think it is funny that most everyone I know of who argues that the Direct Track is such a great program and that it's graduates are God's gift to aviation, have never flown a jet"

"It's funny that those with the strongest opinions in favor of direct track HAVE NEVER EVEN FLOWN FOR AN AIRLINE and then turn around and tell those that do we have no idea what we are talking about"

I have noticed this, as well. It's pretty ironic and quite amusing. How many times have you heard guys with some experience say "Yeah, when I had 300 hours I thought I knew it all but now that I have 1500 in the jet I realize how little I really knew". Now there's a recurring theme...

"It is not until you get out into the world that you will really learn. Many of us think that this should be done before you go to the airlines"

Amen.

October 19th, 2006, 01:42	#52
Fandango Flyer Newbie Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: California Posts: 21	Re: Advanced Airline Training Program you are the furthest thing from a "moderator" than i could ever imagine.

October 19th, 2006, 03:52	#53
Aviator_Bakeek Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 68	Re: Advanced Airline Training Program Wow, I sure missed alot while I was gone. To everyone that has been dedicated to posting in this thread (727UPS, CAV, ILS, Launchpad), I really appreciate the input. It really shows that whether we all disagree with each other on everything or agree on everything, we stick to our guns and keep the insults to a minimum. Personally, I would be honored to fly with any of yall whether or not we agree on anything at all. If I can say one thing for sure about all of you, is that you really love aviation. Badco, I had read about your misfortune on other posts and am sorry that had to happen to you. I know I wouldnt want to be in your place. ILS, I think your new nickname should be "the hammer".

October 19th, 2006, 13:42	#56
badco99 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 133	It's official, no longer intersted in ASA ASA called this morning to "update their database." Told them I was no longer interested. I should have asked about class dates, but they woke me up and caught me off guard. Oh well, that's life I guess. To be perfectly honest I don't feel like I'm ready to go to ASA right now. It's not that I don't think I could do it, but I'm not instrument current and I know for a fact the first time I got into that plane I would probably be overwhelmed by the radios and everything else because I haven't flown in so long. Last thing I flew was a two seat Diamond out of Long Beach. I could fly the plane, but everything else sucked big time. Onto the latest comments. First, another airline. None of the airlines accept laterals. I know marketing was trying to see if Pinnacle would take me, but nothing ever came of it. That was the ONLY alternative they offered me. I tried the Business Jet Direct and that just turned into a big cluster. And I used my couple hours of extra time in the sim before I left. Regardless, I don't want to shell out another few hundred I don't have to get back to Vero to do it. Cost of the ERJ sim is about $1000/hr. The training I was getting in LGB on the EMB-120 was worth about $12,000 as I recall. I'm sure bigger and better planes cost more. As for blaming FSA, I don't blame them. But considering I invested over $80,000 in flight training there I'd expect more than, "It's out of our hands." I think more people could have been involved. Someone should have said, "I don't care if you only want 4 direct track in a class. They spent their money to work for your airline, you're having classes so get them in already." If I was good enough to hire in the first place then it shouldn't matter how many direct tracks are in the class. The instructor ratings...that was mentioned while I was still in FL waiting. As i recall the CFII was $2000-3000, and MEI about the same. So lets say $6000. Who wants to give me the $6000 to get those ratings??? And I do mean give, not loan. Sure it may only be a couple grand, but when you only have about $200 to your name that's a little hard. I tried to get an instructor job, but since I hadn't flown a PPL maneuver in over a year they wanted me to get 3-4 hours practice before they'd go any further. Again, a few hundred I didn't have to spend. I've been keeping this quite, but here is a cold hard FACT. Between my student loan and my father (cause he convinced me to do the direct track and loaned me the money) I am about $150,000 in debt. Lets see the break down....Flight training: $80,500, Interst to date: $20,000, father: $30,000 ($22.5k for direct track, the rest for other things like moving and paying off my student loan since I can't do it right now). That leaves about $20,000 for living expenses. Did I blow some of it on stuff I didn't need, yes. But the majority went to bills, food, etc. "Sounds like a threat to me. So Badco can't express his opinion now without worrying what FSA management thinks? This whole site is about freedom of speech and telling it like it is. Badco shouldn't have to worry about it." How's this for worrying about FSA management...they can take a flying leap. I was going to say something else but it would probably get edited. Scovgard, Wakefield and probably Haland need to go. From what understand they were on their way out when the big wigs from NY decided to fire all the part time people instead, which included a lot of GREAT ground instructors. By all means, go to FSA to do your training, its great. BUT don't do direct track and don't work there until they are gone. The only way I'd recommend DT now is if you are given a 100% guarantee that upon completion of the program you will be in the NEXT available ground school. WELL, that got a little long. Believe me when I say I'd rather be flying than going back to law enforcement. I LOVE to fly. It has been my first choice of careers for as long as I can remember, law enforecment was a distant second. I wish I could still do it, but due to money and timing it just hasn't worked out. It's not like I didn't try. I'm not religious and I can't say I believe in destiny, but maybe things really do happen for a reason. Blue skies and fly safe everyone.

October 20th, 2006, 13:45	#57
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 41,928 Blog Entries: 1	Re: It's official, no longer intersted in ASA Sorry folks, I generally haven't spent a lot of time in the FSA thread because it's been historically quiet. This is my opinion. It's 'stream of consciousness' so I might ramble. There are five distinct "training circles". One training circle is the military. People that have the qualifications for the military and have a strong desire to serve their country generally take this route. Highly structured program, intense training, little opportunity for extra training and zero spoon feeding. Perform at 100% or become the "chief bottle washer" of your Air Force base. Taxpayer-financed training, but you repay that cost with a charge to defend the nation with your life. Another training circle are the FBO/fixed base operators. Spread across the country at small, medium and large airports offering a variety of services. Some have stuctured programs, some don't. Costs are generally lower than other training circles, but you get the same FAA certificate than you get anywhere else. Mostly meant for people who want to train at their local airport at their own pace. Less structure and less overhead mean a lower cost. Flight Academies are another circle. Some students perform best in a tightly structured (for the lack of a better term) quasi-military style program with performance goals, a tight syllabus and whatnot. Additional structure means a higher cost than a FBO/fixed base operator. Another training circle are accelerated (training) programs. If you're a self-starter, learn fast on your own and generally (unlike me cuz I'm a little slow) have the ability to get concepts and manuevers down pat the first time, you can save time and sometimes money with a program like this. Costs vary depending on the company. And the last circle is the Aviation University. A mix of Flight Academy added into a collegiate environment. As a potential student, you've really got to look at yourself first and figure out how you learn and what you want to get out of training in order to decide which training circle you'd do best in. Some people need a red-hot fire poker in their rump during training and others want a 'peace train' approach. Comparing prices and programs across circles isn't a valid comparison unless you recognize what environment you feel you'll best succeed in. Focus primarily on the training and the environment that best matches the way you realistically learn. __________________ Doug Taylor http://76school.flyblog.com (old!) http://30west.flyblog.com (updated 11/28)

October 20th, 2006, 15:21	#59
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,578	Re: Advanced Airline Training Program "Sorry folks, I generally haven't spent a lot of time in the FSA thread because it's been historically quiet" Somebody must have complained... Honestly, this place is far from quiet. Pull up a chair and sit down, Doug.

October 20th, 2006, 15:57	#60
Cherokee_Cruiser Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 1,419	Re: Advanced Airline Training Program I'd like to thank Doug for opening up this thread again. DE, Sometimes it seems like you abuse your priviledge as a moderator. This thread had not gone out of control. It is 3 pages long, it has not erupted into a fight, and there has been no name-calling. It seems like this thread is very informative, and if anything, someone somwhere will learn from it. But yet, you closed this thread. I understand you don't like Direct Track, so I hope you aren't letting this cloud you. Why close a thread if it's peaceful, no fighting/bashing, and very informative? I say let this run, people can only learn from it. IF, and IF, it gets out of hand, then go ahead and shut 'er down. But until then, lets be open, no ? Doug, again, thanks for opening this thread again.

October 20th, 2006, 16:12	#61
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,578	Re: Advanced Airline Training Program "It is 3 pages long, it has not erupted into a fight, and there has been no name-calling" How long it was is irrelavent. In my opinion it did erupt into a fight with insults and a threats. I saw it as only getting worse and the first posters questions had certainly been addressed. I thought it was best to let Badco make his rebuttle to ILS and stop it there. Someone disagreed. Complained to Doug. And here we are. Game on... "Sometimes it seems like you abuse your priviledge as a moderator" Pretty easy to say when your opinion is on the other side of the fence from mine. I'm sure ILS will agree with you. "Why close a thread if it's peaceful, no fighting/bashing..." Are you serious? Peaceful? No bashing? LOL, not sure we're reading the same thread.

October 20th, 2006, 21:21	#66
amorris311 Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Los Angeles soon to be phx Posts: 2,643	Re: Advanced Airline Training Program cant we all just get along? give the mods some credit they have to judge a ton of posts and keep stuff in line. we all make mistakes and since doug is a reasonable person he reopened it. also im sure there is more to it then we all know.

October 21st, 2006, 00:17	#67
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,578	Re: Advanced Airline Training Program In my opinion, the thread should have been closed based on what I've already talked about. Doug disagreed and reopened the thread. That's the way it is here at JC, no big deal. I don't believe I abuse my power as a mod, though I certainly understand why you two (or three) feel that way. Feel free to take it up with the management at any time. There are some people at JC that will ALWAYS think I'm abusing my power as a mod cause they don't like what I say, the way I say it, or just think mods shouldn't have an opinion or should steer away from controversy. Sorry, but I don't see it that way. The only things I really feel strongly about are super low time jet F/O's, scabs, Gulfstream, and Riddle. This thread just happened to include one of those areas.

October 21st, 2006, 13:05	#69
Cav Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Let me look, I forgot. Posts: 703	Re: Advanced Airline Training Program Exactly what I was thinking. It's funny that those with the strongest opinions in favor of direct track HAVE NEVER EVEN FLOWN FOR AN AIRLINE and then turn around and tell those that do we have no idea what we are talking about. Precisely why I don't put much stock in their opinion and choose to spend my time steering students away from direct track. The benefit is not worth the risk. But most importantly direct track is commoditises the airline pilot career only slightly less than the likes of Gulfstream. It is the direct result of what I like to call the "microwave generation." Instant gratification regardless of price. What's wrong with good ole' fashioned hard work? But I guess that takes too much effort and time. We should be making it harder to become an airline pilot not easier. Carry on Don, keep telling them what they don't want to hear.

October 21st, 2006, 16:22	#70
badco99 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 133	Re: Advanced Airline Training Program Everyone seems to forget that a big factor in my decision has to do with money, money I don't have. Now while FSA may look out for their customers they are still a business. Go back to FSA and instruct??? OK, well, the only way I can do that is to get my CFII and re-interview. Money. Go and get recurrent...money. Are we seeing a pattern yet? Money, money, money. Did I shoot myself in the foot, maybe. I've really just hit that point where I've decided to cut my losses for the moment and move on. I haven't been moving anywhere in almost 10 months. When I get back on with the PD I'll be making almost $50,000 a year. I'll be able to pay my bills and still have a little left over to go fly every month. Hopefully I'll even be able to get a few friends to go with to help foot the bill. What I'd like to do is look into instructing. With my schedule I'll work 7 days out of every 14. So I'm hoping I can fit some instructing on the side in there. I'm sure flying in the DC area is a great learning experience. As for Don abusing his power...of course he is, he's a jerk. Really, Don and I have different opinions and have had it out in the past. While I still don't agree with him 100% I can see where he's coming from. He's giving his honest opinion and just trying to give newbie pilots a good direction to go in. (Never thought I'd say any of that). I think his biggest problem is he comes across as a little harsh most of the time. No matter what I'm looking forward to lunch with him next Saturday. Hope to see a few others there as well.

October 21st, 2006, 19:59	#72
badco99 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 133	Re: Advanced Airline Training Program Just mention direct track and this is pretty much what happens. This thread has actually been pretty tame compared to some others.

October 23rd, 2006, 04:19	#75
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,578	Re: Advanced Airline Training Program "I also think it is funny that most everyone I know of who argues that the Direct Track is such a great program and that it's graduates are God's gift to aviation, have never flown a jet" "It's funny that those with the strongest opinions in favor of direct track HAVE NEVER EVEN FLOWN FOR AN AIRLINE and then turn around and tell those that do we have no idea what we are talking about" I have noticed this, as well. It's pretty ironic and quite amusing. How many times have you heard guys with some experience say "Yeah, when I had 300 hours I thought I knew it all but now that I have 1500 in the jet I realize how little I really knew". Now there's a recurring theme... "It is not until you get out into the world that you will really learn. Many of us think that this should be done before you go to the airlines" Amen.