Advanced Airline Training Program

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"I hear both good and bad about the direct track programs"

Besides the schools marketing, where have you heard anything good?

You rang.....

I personally know four guys that went through. They all did extremely well...

Here is an interesting thought though. Now seriously give it a chance...

The regionals are hiring at 700/80 right now (lowest time I have seen in awhile). Would you rather have a CFI that finished their ratings at 350 hours and then instructed pre-privates for 300 hours and bought 50 hours of multi in a "time building safety pilot" program......OR......

A CIME graduate from FSA that went through the Advanced Airline Program flying LOFT procedures and instrument procedures set forth by by the hiring airline?

I would take the FSA AAP candidate in a heartbeat. remember, this is one example but it really is all to familiar with those of us who have seen instructors from small schools with zero standards, zero instrument students, and zero multi students.

That is where I stand with direct track.... Too many of the instructors out there may meet the total time but do not have any of the experience neccesary to go to ground school for that jet... The FSA student is a better gamble in my mind...

If you picked the CFI I know you are full of it....

ILS

[SteveC]

Related thoughts...

[DE727UPS]

"Too many of the instructors out there may meet the total time but do not have any of the experience neccesary to go to ground school for that jet..."

Prove it. Sorry ILS, FBO CFI's do just fine in jet ground school. The regionals set it up so that if you work hard and have a good attitude, you'll get through it, whether you have an academy background or whatever. You're shooting from the hip, considering you've never even worked for an airline.

[Aviator_Bakeek]

Originally Posted by CLR4ILS

If you picked the CFI I know you are full of it....

ILS

LOL...I love it.

Even though I see everyones very well made points regarding the experience gained as a flight instructor, "paying your dues", and the best of the industry, I have to raise this flag. If it was best for the industry to raise standards and not hire direct trackee's, why wouldnt they. Obviously the industry needs the less experienced pilots to take jobs for 5 years and pay them less so that the company can survive (its better for the industry). Also, how does teaching students stalls, steep turns, etc. have anything to do with flying a regional aircraft. When was the last time you airline or freight pilots stalled "accidentally". And, the fanciest equipment a CFI will see is a G1000, I see learning the systems of an aircraft being a hell of a lot more important to assisting the captain with 5000 hours than watching for mistakes in his flying. And personally, I think anyone in the right seat up against a captain would wonder how to say something if they saw something wrong...its a captain that has more hours and experience than you period. I show the same respect to the instructor I flew with today that was all over the localizer, but I had no problem telling him to watch what he was doing. If the F/O cant have the balls to say something without worry that he will feel stupid, then he should probably go flight instruct people who are just starting out in aviation to raise his confidence level.

And for the person saying he was "afraid of my mindset. This isnt like driving a bus.", its the people like me who question what they see and read that you probably want to be flying with because we will to speak up and not worry if it makes us look bad since we know from experience its better to ask than fail (or crash) cause we did not ask in the first place. And because we ask, we sit in the back seat of small aircraft to watch other students and instructors, we prowl the message boards, read everything aviation, and even practice approaches on FlightSim... we learn. I ask Captains and F/O's questions anytime I can about aircraft and flying, I dont care about whether or not they like it or what its like. Knowledge is power...

I still have not made the choice towards flight instruction or direct track. However, I can say that there is a place for both in the industry and both serve a purpose that makes the airlines and the industry of aviation "go round".

[DE727UPS]

"Obviously the industry needs the less experienced pilots to take jobs for 5 years and pay them less so that the company can survive (its better for the industry)"

You should get into the management end of the airline biz, you'd be good at it.

[Aviator_Bakeek]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

You should get into the management end of the airline biz, you'd be good at it.

Haha, I dont know whether that was a compliment or "one of those" comments. But no thanks, I belong in the air, my family swears I have wings.

[Cav]

Originally Posted by CLR4ILS

You rang.....

I personally know four guys that went through. They all did extremely well...

Here is an interesting thought though. Now seriously give it a chance...

The regionals are hiring at 700/80 right now (lowest time I have seen in awhile). Would you rather have a CFI that finished their ratings at 350 hours and then instructed pre-privates for 300 hours and bought 50 hours of multi in a "time building safety pilot" program......OR......

A CIME graduate from FSA that went through the Advanced Airline Program flying LOFT procedures and instrument procedures set forth by by the hiring airline?

I would take the FSA AAP candidate in a heartbeat. remember, this is one example but it really is all to familiar with those of us who have seen instructors from small schools with zero standards, zero instrument students, and zero multi students.

That is where I stand with direct track.... Too many of the instructors out there may meet the total time but do not have any of the experience neccesary to go to ground school for that jet... The FSA student is a better gamble in my mind...

If you picked the CFI I know you are full of it....

ILS

Personally I really don't want either one but if I must choose, I'll take the CFI 10/10 times. Why you ask? Because their attitude is probably better. He/she probably feels lucky to be there rather than entitled to the seat. They probably come in with an open mind and ask their captains tons of questions and willingly absorb a lot of information that captains present to them. Within reason, what a new hire FO lacks in ability/knowledge, can be easily overcome with the right attitude. Show me a humble new hire who's not affraid to speak up when they're right, with a good work ethic, and an even better attitude and I'll show you a good future airline pilot. Give me some 22 yr old punk who can fly a sim, recite the FOM from memmory, and thinks he gods gift to the flight deck and I'll show you a kid with a bunch of negative probationary FO reports and a few trips to the chief pilot's office under their belt.

[Aviator_Bakeek]

Originally Posted by Cav

Personally I really don't want either one but if I must choose, I'll take the CFI 10/10 times. Why you ask? Because their attitude is probably better. He/she probably feels lucky to be there rather than entitled to the seat. They probably come in with an open mind and ask their captains tons of questions and willingly absorb a lot of information that captains present to them. Within reason, what a new hire FO lacks in ability/knowledge, can be easily overcome with the right attitude. Show me a humble new hire who's not affraid to speak up when they're right, with a good work ethic, and an even better attitude and I'll show you a good future airline pilot. Give me some 22 yr old punk who can fly a sim, recite the FOM from memmory, and thinks he gods gift to the flight deck and I'll show you a kid with a bunch of negative probationary FO reports and a few trips to the chief pilot's office under their belt.

It sounds like your making the CFI to be more babysat than the direct track F/O. WILL YOU PEOPLE PLEASE MAKE UP YOUR MIND LOL!

Why do we use words like punk?

Why cant that 22 year old that can fly the sim, recite the FOM, and think he is God's gift to the flight deck be someone who has a good record (stereotyping)? Personally, I am excited about being an F/O, its been my dream for quite sometime.

[launchpad]

Originally Posted by Aviator_Bakeek

Personally, I am excited about being an F/O, its been my dream for quite sometime.

why not put some dedication and hard work towards that goal then???

Paying for the opportunity is a half assed way of getting towards your goal.

If you don't think that you'll feel better about yourself by working hard towards your goal and earning everything that comes to you, then go for the direct track.

Most people with pride in their skill and in their profession will choose to gain experience and knowledge before they take on a job with the responsibility associated with being a First Officer. being an instructor might not teach you how to fly a jet, but it teaches you how to be a quiet observer. Most important though, being an instructor (cargo pilot, etc. etc.) teaches you how to be PIC, and make decisions regarding the safety of the flight....

When you're working for a company that steps on your d**k every chance they get and you're not getting paid crap, don't complain. It's what you paid for...not earned....

[Aviator_Bakeek]

Originally Posted by launchpad

why not put some dedication and hard work towards that goal then???

Paying for the opportunity is a half assed way of getting towards your goal.

If you don't think that you'll feel better about yourself by working hard towards your goal and earning everything that comes to you, then go for the direct track.

Most people with pride in their skill and in their profession will choose to gain experience and knowledge before they take on a job with the responsibility associated with being a First Officer. being an instructor might not teach you how to fly a jet, but it teaches you how to be a quiet observer. Most important though, being an instructor (cargo pilot, etc. etc.) teaches you how to be PIC, and make decisions regarding the safety of the flight....

When you're working for a company that steps on your d**k every chance they get and you're not getting paid crap, don't complain. It's what you paid for...not earned....

I make the same decisions though as PIC now. I told someone with much much more time and experience as an instructor to go around after having a full scale deflection on the localizer on an approach today. I dont understand why its so hard to make a decision about the safety of a flight, its become almost like breathing (it keeps me breathing thats for sure).

And how is completing all the training from PP to CMEL not an accomplishment. You pay for training one way or another until you start getting paid. I know people that should be flying but cant even afford the training to get to the point where they can start getting paid...its unfortunate for them and the industry.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by Aviator_Bakeek

If it was best for the industry to raise standards and not hire direct trackee's, why wouldnt they.

I'd like to make a small point here. Small, but important.

"Best for the industry" is not an absolute, it is relative. There is what is "best" from a pilot's perspective, and there is what is "best" from an airline management perspective. They are two very, very, very different things.

[DE727UPS]

"I make the same decisions though as PIC now. I told someone with much much more time and experience as an instructor to go around after having a full scale deflection on the localizer on an approach today"

LOL, good for you. Seriously, you come here asking for opinions but don't want to hear them. Stop talking about direct track and just do it. Then will have someone here who can tell us how great it is. Same for Cherokeee Cruiser. Just do it....

[ananoman]

I personally think it is funny that people will pay more than they will earn their first year, just to get into the right seat of a jet one year sooner. If people are willing to do this, then the airlines should just hire people and not pay them the first year they fly. After all, it would be 'good for the industry'...

[Cav]

Originally Posted by Aviator_Bakeek

It sounds like your making the CFI to be more babysat than the direct track F/O. WILL YOU PEOPLE PLEASE MAKE UP YOUR MIND LOL!

Why do we use words like punk?

Why cant that 22 year old that can fly the sim, recite the FOM, and think he is God's gift to the flight deck be someone who has a good record (stereotyping)? Personally, I am excited about being an F/O, its been my dream for quite sometime.

I was trying to make the point that there is far more to being an FO than being able to fly the sim and know the FOM. I was trying to say that from a CRM standpoint a good attitude is just as important. A CFI is far better prepaired having used it in the cockpit everyday with students. Learning to fly the airplane during sim training isn't all that difficult for a CFI or a direct tracker. But once again we come back around to the whole well rounded pilot concept which a direct tracker is not. But you know what it doesn't matter, you've already made up your mind. Go pay $30k (or whatever it costs) to get a job that pays you $20k all because you're in a hurry to get to the airlines...which I view as rather immature. What will you do if you get furloughed or the airline doesn't hire you? What then? You've just shot yourself in the foot because no other airline is going to look at you just because you did a direct track program with another carrier.

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by Cav

Personally I really don't want either one but if I must choose, I'll take the CFI 10/10 times. Why you ask? Because their attitude is probably better. He/she probably feels lucky to be there rather than entitled to the seat. They probably come in with an open mind and ask their captains tons of questions and willingly absorb a lot of information that captains present to them. Within reason, what a new hire FO lacks in ability/knowledge, can be easily overcome with the right attitude. Show me a humble new hire who's not affraid to speak up when they're right, with a good work ethic, and an even better attitude and I'll show you a good future airline pilot. Give me some 22 yr old punk who can fly a sim, recite the FOM from memmory, and thinks he gods gift to the flight deck and I'll show you a kid with a bunch of negative probationary FO reports and a few trips to the chief pilot's office under their belt.

First, who said the guys going through DT have a god complex? The guys I know that went through did not act like they were entitled to anything. They earned that seat with proficiency and the ability to act as a crew member. The fact that they could afford to pay for the advanced training does not mean they are any less or more likely to get along with the captain or fullfill their duties....

Second, the scenario I gave which is all to common, clearly showed the direct track guy to be more proficient and qualified to take the right seat over the CFI with all pre-private time. I have witnessed first hand how well these guys can fly. They are trained at the ATP level with no exceptions. If they can't fly the Senecas and the ERJ sim in the instrument environment to the ATP level than they are out of the program. Lets not forget that they have to complete an oral and sim ride at the ATP level with the hiring airlines sim instructor before heading to ground school...

I myself had one of the two instructors that ran the ASA program for my CFII and MEI. He taught me everything he used in the ASA program with respect to instruments and multi engine flying. I aced both the CFII and MEI oral and flights recieving two letters of outstanding achievment...

I gaurantee you that the DT guys have to be "baby sat" a hell of a lot less by the captain than the CFI off the street.... It has been proven.....

I am sure you will stick to your guns on your 350 hour pre-private CFI... More power to you...

I look at everything from a "proficiency" standpoint (AS SHOULD ALL) and I know a WHOLE lot of CFI's out here in Arizona that I wouldn't want in the right seat over the DT candidate that was trained very thoroughly to the ATP level. Just because they have their instructor ratings and ran pre-privates to the practice area and back, that doesn't mean they are "proficient" enough to head off to CRJ ground school...


ILS

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by launchpad

why not put some dedication and hard work towards that goal then???

Paying for the opportunity is a half assed way of getting towards your goal.

If you don't think that you'll feel better about yourself by working hard towards your goal and earning everything that comes to you, then go for the direct track.

Most people with pride in their skill and in their profession will choose to gain experience and knowledge before they take on a job with the responsibility associated with being a First Officer. being an instructor might not teach you how to fly a jet, but it teaches you how to be a quiet observer. Most important though, being an instructor (cargo pilot, etc. etc.) teaches you how to be PIC, and make decisions regarding the safety of the flight....

When you're working for a company that steps on your d**k every chance they get and you're not getting paid crap, don't complain. It's what you paid for...not earned....

What you have "earned" can be very vague (spell check please) I know guys that instructed with me over at Sabena Airlines that had over 1000 hours of ALL pre-private students, were not instrument or multi engine current that met the MINIMUM requirements to get hired with a regional. Are you saying they have "EARNED" that right seat simply because they stuck it out?

Thats straight up BS..... I know you say instructing those PPL's made him a good PIC making safety decisions etc. etc. etc..... More BS.... 100 hours or 1000 hours to the practice area and back with those guys flying the SAME x-country's over and over again. Same difference...

Heres where I stand on instructors and "IF" they "EARNED" that next step. ONLY if they had a diverse student load from PPL to instrument to multi through their 1000 hours of instruction, have they earned that spot and the respect of being an instructor for that period of time.... Unless they have been instructing instrument and ME students up to their CRJ ground school, I do not want them flying my family around. I'll take the DT guy that is proficient in the instrument environment in complex aircraft.

I know that not ALL instructors out there only get Pre-Privates, are in need of an IPC and ME currency..... BUT ...... it really is more common than you think. For those instructors that have a diverse student load and are working hard on their instrument skills, yes they are gaining valuable experience...

BTW...that is why the regionals like FSA instructors, they are getting an enormous amount of instrument instruction in the Seminole....

ILS

[badco99]

I've been working a convention for the last few days, so I haven't been keeping up, but I'm back.

I'll say this about direct track, I think the training was great and it's a good program, when it works out. Having said that...

DON'T DO IT!!!

UPS should love that. Take your $22k and just time build. Even if you rent some nice plane at $120/hr, you can still build almost 200 hours of ACTUAL flight time. More perspective, I've flown ONCE (actual flight time, did get some sim time in June) since my checkride in Jan for a grand total of about 1.7 hrs in the last 10 months. I'm broke so I can't fly and the money I make working is going to pay the bills. Even if ASA did call today I'm no longer instrument current so I'd have to shell out the cash I don't have to get current again, so they may not even take me until that happens.

As for others that have done the program...some are really great, and some are struggling. I know a few that struggled and I think they shouldn't have been hired in the first place. A few are knuckleheads I wouldn't want to fly with for any amount of money.

Anyway, I'm not going to debate the issue anymore because it's a dead horse. Just telling you what I think. It's a great program, for the right kind of person. Unfortunately the wrong people still get hired.

And yes, I am a little bitter.


Blue skies and fly safe.

[SpiraMirabilis]

"Take your 22k and time build."

How about get a loan for 22k less or if you for some reason dont need loans take the 22k and put it in an aggressive growth mutual fund.

[DE727UPS]

"I gaurantee you that the DT guys have to be "baby sat" a hell of a lot less by the captain than the CFI off the street.... It has been proven....."

Proven by whom? I think you just made that up. Now, if you were working as a pilot at a regional airline that hired direct trackers, somebody might consider that your opinion was based on fact. What airline do you work for again?

And you spelled guarantee wrong....

[DE727UPS]

"Anyway, I'm not going to debate the issue anymore because it's a dead horse"

You really shouldn't quit debating it. I know I won't. You are in a unique position, here at JC, as you actually went through the program and can talk about, first hand, how it goes.

My first response at this thread for AviatorB was a simple "PM Badco99". I really didn't want to say any more. However, as the thread progressed AviatorB made some comments I wasn't about to let go. If he never PMed you, then he's a fool.

Anyhow, Cherokee Cruiser has been around long enough that he knows what happened with you. Newbies should at least be able to hear your story to offset FSA's "best case scenario" marketing. I guess we could tell people to just use the search function but it's not the same as someone directly addressing a new thread.

Anyhow, best of luck to you, Badco. Believe me, I'm not happy things turned out the way they did for you. If you're in Vegas the Saturday of NJC, beer and lunch is on me. I remember you saying you might be around.

[badco99]

I guess it's more the back and forth of the whole thing. We've had it out, and it just never seems to end. I think you are right that maybe it shouldn't, but the occasional break is nice. Right now I'm just happy to tell people what happened to me, and probably a few others. Sure there were two of us from FSA, but we forget that there were people from ATP and DCA. Who knows how many of them got screwed.

I never got a PM. If he has more questions he can feel free to ask.

I appreciate your last paragraph. I know you didn't really like the path I chose, but you didn't want everything to come crashing down around me either.

As for lunch, as I recall pilots never turn down anything free. Guess I should go ahead and register for the big night. Is there a schedule? I know the tours are Friday and the party that night, is there anything else? Deadline to register? I looked through the forum and did a search and didn't find much, or maybe I found it all. Anyway, we'll figure something out.

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

DE,

Stop talking about direct track and just do it. Then will have someone here who can tell us how great it is. Same for Cherokeee Cruiser. Just do it....

If I am the voice of Direct Track, then you are definetly the voice of Nike




To answer your question, I know last time we touched up on this subject I was in between MAPD and FSA Direct Track. MAPD is now out, for a multitude of reasons. Direct Track is not out, it's still #1 in my list of things to seriously consider attending.

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"I gaurantee you that the DT guys have to be "baby sat" a hell of a lot less by the captain than the CFI off the street.... It has been proven....."

Proven by whom? I think you just made that up. Now, if you were working as a pilot at a regional airline that hired direct trackers, somebody might consider that your opinion was based on fact. What airline do you work for again?

And you spelled guarantee wrong....

I do not have to make it up. The Chief Pilot from ASA told me and several others at the meeting directly. If you were up on your JC posts you would remember that I told you about that awhile back.

I don't have to work for an airline to know key people in the industry. Don't you remember, I know one of your comrads at UPS that thinks you are an idiot.... He is senior to you I might add. Oh yeah, and he recommends Flight Safety and the direct track to people. He must not know what he is talking about huh? I mean, you know, because he is not you.....

If I wanted to fly for a regional, I would have been there long ago. Don't believe me? Ask CheckSix. He knows which jobs I have been offered...

It was a typo smart guy.....

ILS

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by badco99

I guess it's more the back and forth of the whole thing. We've had it out, and it just never seems to end. I think you are right that maybe it shouldn't, but the occasional break is nice. Right now I'm just happy to tell people what happened to me, and probably a few others. Sure there were two of us from FSA, but we forget that there were people from ATP and DCA. Who knows how many of them got screwed.

I never got a PM. If he has more questions he can feel free to ask.

I appreciate your last paragraph. I know you didn't really like the path I chose, but you didn't want everything to come crashing down around me either.

As for lunch, as I recall pilots never turn down anything free. Guess I should go ahead and register for the big night. Is there a schedule? I know the tours are Friday and the party that night, is there anything else? Deadline to register? I looked through the forum and did a search and didn't find much, or maybe I found it all. Anyway, we'll figure something out.

It is unfortunate that ASA put the hiring on hold. I was scheduled for my interview with them in January 04 a month after completion of my MEI. They interviewed 4 in December and took one guy. BAM.... they stopped the hiring. What pissed me off was that the one guy that they took, dropped out in the Seneca phase. I was ready to go and would have breezed through the training. I had just moved my wife and daughter back to Vero for the CFII/MEI and ASA. It sucked, but thats life. I NEVER blamed FSA for ASA stopping the hiring and niether should you. FSA has zero control over ASA's decisions and they don't let FSA know anything until the day it happens....

From what I understand FSA offered you Eagle or one of the others. why haven't you taken FSA up on ther offer to go to Eagle or one of the others. It beats sitting around. Another question, did you get your instructor ratings? If not, I am sure FSA would have helped you out with that. The management can be very accomodating when approached with an issue...

I know for a fact that if ASA calls you up that FSA will put you back in the sim to get you up to speed and current. However, if you keep beating them up over something only ASA had control over, they might not be very sympathetic. I would think about that. I know I would...

BTW.... If they do call, I would go back....

Good luck..

ILS

[DE727UPS]

"I know one of your comrads at UPS that thinks you are an idiot.... He is senior to you I might add. Oh yeah, and he recommends Flight Safety and the direct track to people"

He's quite entitled to his opinion on FSA and me being an idiot. Tell him to introduce himself someday.

"I NEVER blamed FSA for ASA stopping the hiring and niether should you. FSA has zero control over ASA's decisions and they don't let FSA know anything until the day it happens...."

Yeah, FSA can't control the hiring situation at their partner regionals. ASA decided to stop hiring and people got burned. One of several good reasons not to do direct track. Wanna hear more?

"However, if you keep beating them up over something only ASA had control over, they might not be very sympathetic"

Sounds like a threat to me. So Badco can't express his opinion now without worrying what FSA management thinks? This whole site is about freedom of speech and telling it like it is. Badco shouldn't have to worry about it.

"It was a typo smart guy....."

You started it....