Considering FSA

[SteveC]

Don't worry, you didn't start it.

[DE727UPS]

ILS, you can see from this thread I'm hardly bashing FSA. When the guy said money was no object, I told him to check FSA out. You're just like the ATP guys. I say I disagree with ATP's program where guys go from no time to instructing newbies in 4 months (which I think you'd agree with), and the ATP guys say I'm bashing ATP. I hardly think claiming FSA is one of the most expensive schools (which is a fact), and saying it's not worth the money (which is my highly experienced opinion), is bashing...though you can call it what you want. Now, direct track, I bash, no doubt about that. Quite happy to do it...

There are guys at JC that went to FSA and said they wouldn't do it over again...are they bashing too? I think you'd like to quell all discussion on the matter lest peoples opinions be heard.

You spelled airborn(e) wrong in your previous reply, by the way.

You're blind defense of FSA is understandable considering where your coming from. Hopefully, someday you'll get to the next level and see how many fine pilots come from little FBO's. They must be doing some things right, in spite of what you think. Honestly, I've been doing 121 flying since 1988 and I've nobody I know came from FSA. Outside the military guys, though, almost all came from the smaller schools. Heck, I myself have trained pilots in my various little airplanes that went on to Delta, America West, UPS, a Capt at Mesa, and two Capts at Skywest.

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

ILS, you can see from this thread I'm hardly bashing FSA. When the guy said money was no object, I told him to check FSA out. You're just like the ATP guys. I say I disagree with ATP's program where guys go from no time to instructing newbies in 4 months (which I think you'd agree with), and the ATP guys say I'm bashing ATP. I hardly think claiming FSA is one of the most expensive schools (which is a fact), and saying it's not worth the money (which is my highly experienced opinion), is bashing...though you can call it what you want. Now, direct track, I bash, no doubt about that. Quite happy to do it...

I don't think a guy instructing after 4 months is the issue. He/she could have flown 2 missions a day 6 days a week and passed all exams above 95%. The only problem I have with that 4 month program is they use the same DE's and provide the answers to the students. A little gouge is alright but from what I hear, and I may be wrong, the students are spoon fed..... DISCLAIMER.... I have not attended ATP. I heard it from a former instructor that went their after Riddle.

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

There are guys at JC that went to FSA and said they wouldn't do it over again...are they bashing too? I think you'd like to quell all discussion on the matter lest peoples opinions be heard.

It is not often you hear of someone upset with FSA. Usually it is because that individual did not get hired on as an instructor. Badco has every right to be upset with the ASA program. I will admit the hiring process there is tough. It would be better if the politics were out of it. I know a few people that did not get hired that should have. You shouldn't have to wear your knee pads to "help" you get the job... It should be purely performance based.... As you can tell Don, I do not like ego stroking. Just show me how you fly and what you know......

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

You spelled airborn(e) wrong in your previous reply, by the way.

Damn it....I thought I was one up on you...

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

You're blind defense of FSA is understandable considering where you are in your career and your background. Hopefully, someday you'll get to the next level and see how many fine pilots come from little FBO's. They must be doing some things right, in spite of what you think. Honestly, I've been doing 121 flying since 1988 and I've nobody I know came from FSA. Outside the military guys, though, almost all came from the smaller schools. Heck, I myself have trained pilots in my various little airplanes that went on to Delta, America West, UPS, a Capt at Mesa, and two Capts at Skywest.

Not blind.... I have very high standards in everything I do. I have not found one mom and pop school out there yet that I would send my child to. I too did a rating or two at some small FBO's to save a buck. After training at FSA, I soon realized what good, quality stadardized training should be like.

You show me a small mom and pop FBO that is doing it right and I will throw them a shout out just for you...

Back to the standards.... You'll love this one. I hired this framing company to rebuild the front over hangs and front entry of this home I am remodeling. 7 days in they had to tear it down and start over. When complete, I made the owner pull down all of the facia and several outriggers. It took them 3 times of re-installing it to get it right. He said, you are one over bearing, anal contractor. I said, if you had done it right the first time, you wouldn't of had to do it over three times and eat all of those labor hours and material.

The point, do it right the first time......FSA does!

ILS

[mpflies2]

Originally Posted by Spbeyond

Guys I really didn't want to start an argument.

yea, you didn't start an argument. If I remember correctly, I have seen similar debates between both members of this forum. Because I see truth in both there statements, I can agree with both on certain issues. I actually find these discussions mildly humorous. This thread will likely not be the first or last argument btwn CLR and DE....haha, keep it coming fellas, if nothing else, good entertainment value

[Flysher]

Spbeyond,

I went to FSA and I really enjoyed the school and the training (besides having to wear those goofy pilot uniforms ).

I will tell you this, the training there is superb and will definetly make you a good pilot. But so much of learning to fly is what YOU put into it. When I was at FSA one of my classmates flunked out basically because he never studied and couldnt focus enough on one thing to actually keep up.

FSA gave me a good "foundation" for learning to fly. Yes I learned the mechanics and the basic knowledge of flight while at the academy, but it wasnt until I became a flight instructor that the really valuable learning began. By this I mean experience. For example, at FSA you arent allowed to take the planes to grass fields. My first grass field landing was on my CFI checkride with the FAA in my hometown, imagine how I felt. Also teaching people to fly really improved my PIC decision making and Situational awareness. Teaching a person to fly in a busy airport environment can be a stressful thing.

Now I fly single pilot night freight, and I been through many valuable experiences that will save my butt one day. Like last night, taking a Navajo to Niagra in the middle of that thunder-snowstorm.

I guess what I am trying to get at though is that when i look around at all my freight buddies and all my regional friends, we all took different routes and ended up at the same place. Sure if you go the FBO route you may not get that super duper ultra fantastic GPS training in a brand new seminole, but someday down the line you will get exposure to it.

In closing I would say to investigate as many options as you can considering your financial capabilities/goals/etc and make a decision that YOU are most comfortable with.

[Spbeyond]

Thanks! A review like that is what I was looking for. What you thought was good and what could be better and where it lead you.

I sence there is alot of hardened bias that both sides have and I agree there is truth on both sides.

Its just the need that people have to take sides. Pepsi vs. Coke Ford Vs. Chevy Army VS. Marines Apple vs. PC p4 vs. AMD Ect. Ect. Ect. You know? And yoda wasn't bashing he really was supportive of FSA as long as I knew that it was expensive. He told it how he felt it is. Now cant we all just get along and agree to disagree. LOL


Dont check my spelling. It has never been a strong suit for me.

[bLizZuE]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

Why? I think you've said it before but for the sake of Spbeyond. Lord knows I have to keep saying things over and over...

The training is great, and I'm really looking forward to instructing here. As well as the internship at the sim center. Those are great opportunities that aren't very easily accessible elsewhere. At the end of my instructing contract here I should have ATP mins, and about 400ish multi. (Which is the norm for instructors here in about 12-18 months)

However- It's expensive. The ground school is very repetitive. If you start from private- you will hear the same things in multi, instrument, commercial. Because some people start in the middle, they cover everything you've already covered. They call it a 'good review', but it's a waste of money if you ask me.

The management sometimes seems like they couldn't care less about you. From the academic side- the office staff are never in their office. They're always on a smoke break, or lunch. Plus they like to take their breaks in groups, so if you need something, chances are you're waiting.

The flight line portion of management sometimes forget who's flipping the bill. It just doesn't feel like I'm the customer all the time. Yet- overall they have been pretty good.

The dorms are sub par. Rooms are small, conditions are less than perfect. The laundry machines suck, and untill recently we had to pay for them. They stopped charging for the laundry, but upped the rent for wireless internet. Which never works. It disconnects often, and is slow. Now they're raising our rent again to 'cover rising costs'. When infact they're replacing crappy wireless with Comcast internet in every room. If they wanted to lower costs, they should fire the maid staff. They're useless.

I cant re-iterate enough- the training is top notch, the instructors are awesome, and I'm glad I've done my training here. However there are some minor things that rub me the wrong way. (Our outdated fleet of planes)

If you have any other questions, you can PM me.

[DE727UPS]

"I sence (sense) there is alot of hardened bias that both sides have and I agree there is truth on both sides"

It's really much bigger than that. Get outside the FSA fourm and you'll see what I mean. Someone just posted that White Air was a great place. ILS will tell you they suck cause they don't do things the way FSA does, as was his misplaced disdain for Mazzei. Again, would love to see him press his views outside this forum. Would be fun to watch.

Still yet, I hear people who went to FSA say it doesn't really matter where you train in the overall scheme of things, though FSA's training is just fine. If money isn't an option and you feel compelled to do FSA, knock yourself out. Most importantly, let us know what you think as your going through it. It's a big step, though, be sure to choose wisely.

Yeah, I could have let this whole thing drop....

Just didn't set well with me.

[Spbeyond]

I will keep you all posted no matter what. I really havn't decided one way or another yet. After I get a few days off work I am going to fly to FSA then to Skymates and maybe one more if I narrow the list a little. (Its going to be an expensive tour! But thats alot of money to spend if your not sure about the place so it will be worth it)

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

It's really much bigger than that. Get outside the FSA fourm and you'll see what I mean. Someone just posted that White Air was a great place. ILS will tell you they suck cause they don't do things the way FSA does, as was his misplaced disdain for Mazzei. Again, would love to see him press his views outside this forum. Would be fun to watch.

I wouldn't say that White Air sucked unless..... I was informed of a low pass rate, crappy syllabus, and unsafe aircraft (which is common among mom and pop FBO schools). I will say one thing, The prices looked good for instruction. If they can back that up with good instruction and show proof of a pass rate above 90%, then were on to something...

BTW... I have participated in this subject outside of this forum...

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

Still yet, I hear people who went to FSA say it doesn't really matter where you train in the overall scheme of things, though FSA's training is just fine. If money isn't an option and you feel compelled to do FSA, knock yourself out. Most importantly, let us know what you think as your going through it. It's a big step, though, be sure to choose wisely.

They only say that when the student loan kicks in. After they go to the local FBO to rent a plane and do a checkout with one of the instructors there, they soon realize that their money was well spent...


I did my private at two small FBO schools (the first one was shut down and planes grounded by the FAA) and then went to FSA. After a quick oral and review flight, they were amazed at what I wasn't taught during my private. FSA paid for me to take the private ground school over before starting the CIME program. Over half the stuff in FSA's ground hadn't been covered with me a the FBO ground schools. I am surprised I passed the checkride at the FBO level. Of course, the DE was the Cheif Pilot for the school. The rest of my CIME program and CFI ratings at FSA went like clockwork.

FSA cost me approx. $38,000 plus living. I know that when I put my family or friends in that plane with me that I am safe, proficient, and prepared to fly them around. You can't put a price on that......

ILS

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by bLizZuE

The training is great, and I'm really looking forward to instructing here. As well as the internship at the sim center. Those are great opportunities that aren't very easily accessible elsewhere. At the end of my instructing contract here I should have ATP mins, and about 400ish multi. (Which is the norm for instructors here in about 12-18 months)

However- It's expensive. The ground school is very repetitive. If you start from private- you will hear the same things in multi, instrument, commercial. Because some people start in the middle, they cover everything you've already covered. They call it a 'good review', but it's a waste of money if you ask me.

The management sometimes seems like they couldn't care less about you. From the academic side- the office staff are never in their office. They're always on a smoke break, or lunch. Plus they like to take their breaks in groups, so if you need something, chances are you're waiting.

The flight line portion of management sometimes forget who's flipping the bill. It just doesn't feel like I'm the customer all the time. Yet- overall they have been pretty good.

The dorms are sub par. Rooms are small, conditions are less than perfect. The laundry machines suck, and untill recently we had to pay for them. They stopped charging for the laundry, but upped the rent for wireless internet. Which never works. It disconnects often, and is slow. Now they're raising our rent again to 'cover rising costs'. When infact they're replacing crappy wireless with Comcast internet in every room. If they wanted to lower costs, they should fire the maid staff. They're useless.

I cant re-iterate enough- the training is top notch, the instructors are awesome, and I'm glad I've done my training here. However there are some minor things that rub me the wrong way. (Our outdated fleet of planes)

If you have any other questions, you can PM me.

It is unfortunate to hear some of the things you have mentioned. It was never that way when I was there. I never lived in the dorms though. I know they are way over priced. Most students find a roomate and move of campus.

I hate to say it, but I think it is time for all new blood with respect to management. Like I have said in the past, when things were booming, the management could fly on auto pilot and eveything fell into place. It is time to hand fly the approach with respect to the students and program. When things get slow you have to give every detail more attention. The training is still well above average, but it sounds like management needs a little kick in the pants..... If they didn't, students wouldn't be complaining about dorms on this website.

I read a post awhile back that said some of the instructors looked like slobs with their shirt untucked. That bothers me. Mr. Haaland and Skovgard would have never let that fly before. My instructors used to tell me that if I had an oil stain on my shirt from pre-flight to bleach it out and your shirt needed to be ironed. I was OK with that.... I know management reads this forum, I hope they are taking notes...

ILS

[DE727UPS]

"FSA cost me approx. $38,000 plus living"

You think that's an accurate figure today? One thing about my perusal of the FSA website is how they stay away from the discussion of costs. I'm sure it's intentional...

"I hate to say it, but I think it is time for all new blood with respect to management"

"I know management reads this forum, I hope they are taking notes..."

HAHA. If they are they might like you less than they like me.

[ananoman]

I went to FSA and agree with everything Blizzue said. If you go there, the dorms are great because you can just show up and you have a place to live. They are also nice since you don't have a lease to worry about. If you want to move out, you just tell them and you only pay for how long you stayed, not until the end of the month. That being said, they are expensive and the cleaning staff sucks. I would find somewhere else to live as soon as possible. You can usually find other students to live with. When I was there, I lived with 2 other instructors in a 3 bedroom apartment and it was great.

The main disadvantage with FSA is cost. The management I can live with. Just know that they don't really care too much about any one individual student or instructor. They will want things done right as they see it and are fair, but some of their policies are pretty retarded. You will get that almost anywhere you go. Just ask the airline guys here what they think about their management.

If you end up instructing for them, it is a good place to build time. The maintenance is top notch, and I was never pressured to fly anything that was sub par. The pay and benefits are also decent. Just make sure there are enough students to go around.

If are interested in flying a business jet, FSA has an internship that can make it happen. It is an opportunity that no other flight school offers.

If I was you I would also think about Mazzei. They were the only other school I looked at that I seriously considered. Although their operation is small, they seemed to really have their act together. For the record I also looked at DCA and Sierra (back in 2000) and they sucked. Pan Am is also worth considering. They have a checkered past, but Jim Tardi who used to be an Asst. Chief Pilot at FSA now works there in upper management and he is a great guy.

[Flysher]

we always joked around and said that the stripes on your shoulder actually signified how much money you had spent, so the more stripes you had, the less money you had left for them to take, hence the reason wakefield forgot my name over time and just started refering to me as a "client".

They really shoulda made us wear name badges or something.

[Check_Six]

Originally Posted by CLR4ILS

It is unfortunate to hear some of the things you have mentioned. It was never that way when I was there.

ILS

I agree. ILS and I attended FSA at the same time, and it was a really squared away place. I felt that:

1. I received excellent treatment from management/admin
2. The ground instructors were always available
3. The classes were challenging and informative (no use of GLEIM when St. George was the Dir. of Academics)
4. The flying was great, but much of that I credit to the fact that my CIME instructor was phenomenal. The instructors do vary though, so don't be afraid to drop one if you aren't meshing well. I opted to change instructors during the CFI training and it was one of the better choices I've made.

I heard rumors that things at FSA have slipped since then (then=pre-9/11), but after meeting a few recent graduates I must say that I'm still impressed with the results. Granted, these guys are motivated individuals who obviously worked hard during the CFI training. That makes a lot of difference. Wherever you decide to go be sure to give 100%...no less.

And IMHO, get your college degree prior to your training. I didn't and it made getting the degree much more difficult. Experience building (i.e. flight instructing, cargo, etc.) takes a lot of your energy and makes attending college, either on campus or online, much more difficult.

Check_Six

[ananoman]

Originally Posted by Check_Six

And IMHO, get your college degree prior to your training. I didn't and it made getting the degree much more difficult. Experience building (i.e. flight instructing, cargo, etc.) takes a lot of your energy and makes attending college, either on campus or online, much more difficult.

Check_Six

I would urge almost anyone to follow this advice as well. In my experience, most of the very young students were not at the same level as the older students. Sometimes it was the lack of an academic background. Sometimes it was just because they still had to grow up a little. I didn't have any 18 yr old students I would have wanted to be my CFI if I was their student. Every individual is different, but there is probably a good reason the FAA puts an age limitation on the ATP.

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"FSA cost me approx. $38,000 plus living"

You think that's an accurate figure today? One thing about my perusal of the FSA website is how they stay away from the discussion of costs. I'm sure it's intentional...

"I hate to say it, but I think it is time for all new blood with respect to management"

"I know management reads this forum, I hope they are taking notes..."

HAHA. If they are they might like you less than they like me.

Hey, I have no problem calling out the obvious. Management down there is getting complacent. It has only been the past couple of years that I ever heard anything negative about the school from a student.

They still offer the best pilot training around. At least with a few minor complaints here and there, they are still in the top three with respect to quality training in the U.S.

BTW....I must say Yody, I am not impressed with the website and photos of White Air. I do like the lazy boy chair in the office though. Unfortunately the office looks like a double wide. Is that the best FBO you can put up against FSA?

[DE727UPS]

"I am not impressed with the website and photos of White Air"

ILS, nobody needs to impress you. Keep on dreamin'....

[getrad]

In White Air's defense, how exactly does the quality of office chairs have an effect on the quality of training? Also, I know corporate pilots whose offices are trailers (single-wide even!), Are they sub-par aviators as well? And a flashy website, with pictures of Jets all over the place, is a RED FLAG. I want to see photos and PRICES of the aircraft I’ll actually be flying. Sorry, for the tirade, I guess everyone just has different ideas about what is important in their training.

[DE727UPS]

Heck, the UPS pilot lounge in Sacramento is a double wide.

[T56Maniac]

I think the “political mud slinging” has crossed over to JC. All I really see in this thread are different opinions…which is great….the dissimilarity is when individuals start attacking each other personally. Keep it above the belt. If everyone had the same opinion, this world as we know it would be mind-numbing.

Spbeyond,
I plan to attend FSA in November 2006. Below is the potential cost breakdown with VA bennies:


Advanced Airline Track Total cost $73,776.00
- VA Reimbursement $34,213.50 (approximate)
- After VA benefit $39,502.50
44 Weeks at lowest cost FSI housing $5,390.00 (Not reimbursable)


Business Jet Direct Track Total cost $62,135.00
- VA Reimbursement $25,481.60 (approximate)
- After VA benefit $36,653.40
46 weeks at lowest cost FSI housing $5635.00 (Not reimbursable)

Instructor Track Total cost $66,746.80
- VA Reimubrsement $27,401.10 (approximate)
- After VA benefit $39,345.70 (Not reimbursable)
51 weeks at lowest cost FSI housing $6,247.50


FSI HOUSING IS NOT INCLUDED IN TOTAL COST. You can choose your track of training upon enrollment, but you may change at any time. For the first eight months or so, you will be earning the basic PPL, CPL, IR, and ME ratings and certificates. You will be able to change your “Track” if you so desire at any time throughout this training.

Not sure if you have VA bennies but here is the information below:

Maximum VA reimbursement for those who have contributed only to the Montgomery GI Bill is $37,224.00. Additional reimbursement may be obtained by contributing to the TOP-UP program. Total reimbursement depends upon the amount of total hours of ground, flight, and briefing completed.

The pricing above is current, give or take a few months, and is subject to change (once enrolled, your pricing will NOT change). Living and other expenses accrue whether you train or not.

Spbeyond,
Go to the school for yourself and ask questions. Take the information and make an educated choice. I’ve spent the past two years looking for a flight school and I feel that I have made the right choice. You and only you will be able to make that choice.

Good luck,

T56

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by getrad

In White Air's defense, how exactly does the quality of office chairs have an effect on the quality of training? Also, I know corporate pilots whose offices are trailers (single-wide even!), Are they sub-par aviators as well? And a flashy website, with pictures of Jets all over the place, is a RED FLAG. I want to see photos and PRICES of the aircraft I’ll actually be flying. Sorry, for the tirade, I guess everyone just has different ideas about what is important in their training.

Dude, they have three (3) aircraft and a lazy boy chair. I am sorry, but if I were going to try to steer someone away from Flight Safety I wouldn't point them in the direction of a school located in BFE, probably has less than 5 students (local weekend warriors), with 3 old aircraft...

I never said the lazy boy had anything to do with the quality of their training. I hope they train far above the PTS... I really do.

ILS

[DE727UPS]

"a school located in BFE, probably has less than 5 students (local weekend warriors), with 3 old aircraft"

In the last couple of months there have been more JC memebers posting about positive results at White Air than there have been about FSA...

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"a school located in BFE, probably has less than 5 students (local weekend warriors), with 3 old aircraft"

In the last couple of months there have been more JC memebers posting about positive results at White Air than there have been about FSA...

Maybe we should send out a blanket email to our thousands of graduates and ask them to post their outstanding experience here.


Yoda, if your going to compare, try comparing apple to apples....

ILS

[mpflies2]

i luvs it fellers...keep it rolling