Things Are Picking Up At Fsa

[CLR4ILS]

I hear that enrollment is up down at the academy to 220+. I guess there are 40+ or so new students scheduled to start in September. That is good to hear...

Looks like the change in direction of the marketing is paying off. I have said it for years now, if you get the prospective students to the school for a tour, the school will sell itself...

Congrats on the turn around FSA.

ILS

[bLizZuE]

Yes, we have a crap load of students, and not enough instructors.

[mpflies2]

I did my CFI there from Jan-May, and would be teaching there right now if they didn't make the people that they issued CFI tickets to go through a months worth of standardization...essentially like 5 more checkrides. I was ready to start flying so I was almost immediatly picked up at Monarch Air in addison Tx. I'm flying near 100 hours a month and didnt have to worry about stan. If they need more instructors they need to lighten up on there hiring policy and there standardization policy. Just seems to me if you were good enough to get your CFI at the academy, why would you not be good enough to work for them?

Anyways, not a bad school otherwise....but I know quite a few other people that left or are leaving for the same reasons I did.

Marc

[badco99]

Part of the problem is they don't treat their instructors very well, and the students are picking up on it. Then when they get their CFI they either go to anther school or straight to the internship. Plus when you sign that 800 hour contract they own you. Even if you have a full student load they figure they can just keep piling stuff on your plate.

As for changing the hiring policy, I don't think they should do that. The instructors they have (at least when I was there) really knew their stuff. I do think they should look at a bigger picture though. I wasn't offered the CFI position because I had a few minor problems with my presentation. Nothing I figured we couldn't fix during standardization. But I had a letter of recommendation from my instructor, which I thought might help. WRONG, they didnt even look at it. Could have cared less. One guy in my group that did get hired should never have been hired in the first place and washed out of standardization. I didn't think his presentations were all that great, but he couldn't even show up on time to class. And I'm not talking about 5 mins or something, I mean 45+ mins on several days. I know of a few other examples of people that shoulodn't have been hired and were. Goes right back to the bigger picture. If they did that I think they'd never hire some and would hire others that deserve it.

As I always say, the training is excellent, but I wouldn't want to work there right now.

[jonboy34]

"One guy in my group that did get hired should never have been hired in the first place and washed out of standardization. I didn't think his presentations were all that great, but he couldn't even show up on time to class. And I'm not talking about 5 mins or something, I mean 45+ mins on several days."


Haha I remember that- you are talking about Cea..r B right? That was pretty funny I can't believe that he was hired... I was hired but never came back for stan, and after a year of the internship and instructing pt 61 I couln't be happier with my decision of not doing Direct track there or instructing there. Great school, but I am completely satisfied with the route i chose...Nothing better than getting paid for what you love to do.

[badco99]

Oh yeah, what a knucklehead. Just goes to show out far outta wack their process is. It's too bad the internship didn't work out for me. I was really looking forward to it, and was having a great time till it all fell apart. I heard you are doing really well at ATL and may even be going out to LGB to help them get some things up and running. Good luck.

[ananoman]

Originally Posted by badco99

Part of the problem is they don't treat their instructors very well, and the students are picking up on it. Then when they get their CFI they either go to anther school or straight to the internship. Plus when you sign that 800 hour contract they own you. Even if you have a full student load they figure they can just keep piling stuff on your plate.

As for changing the hiring policy, I don't think they should do that. The instructors they have (at least when I was there) really knew their stuff. I do think they should look at a bigger picture though. I wasn't offered the CFI position because I had a few minor problems with my presentation. Nothing I figured we couldn't fix during standardization. But I had a letter of recommendation from my instructor, which I thought might help. WRONG, they didnt even look at it. Could have cared less. One guy in my group that did get hired should never have been hired in the first place and washed out of standardization. I didn't think his presentations were all that great, but he couldn't even show up on time to class. And I'm not talking about 5 mins or something, I mean 45+ mins on several days. I know of a few other examples of people that shoulodn't have been hired and were. Goes right back to the bigger picture. If they did that I think they'd never hire some and would hire others that deserve it.

As I always say, the training is excellent, but I wouldn't want to work there right now.

I agree 100%. A lot depends on who evaluates your presentation. I know of excellent instructors who were not hired and a few retards who never should have worked there. The same thing happens everywhere. I will say that over 90% of the instructors did an excellent job, and if you got one of the bad ones, it was relatively easy to switch.

For those who were not hired, they all got jobs somewhere else and it seemed to work out for most people. The training was excellent, so there were never any complaints there. The loan payments are another matter...

As far as how they treat the employees, maybe the current lack of CFI's will get them to make some positive changes. With the relative inexperience of the new CFI's they need a somewhat authoritarian management structure, but you should be able to accomplish this and still treat your people well.

[jonboy34]

Originally Posted by badco99

Oh yeah, what a knucklehead. Just goes to show out far outta wack their process is. It's too bad the internship didn't work out for me. I was really looking forward to it, and was having a great time till it all fell apart. I heard you are doing really well at ATL and may even be going out to LGB to help them get some things up and running. Good luck.

Yea man Im about to be leavin ATL but not for Long Beach, not sure who had that idea..? But I may be out there in the next month or 2, let me know if your gonna still be there. You should give it a few more months if you can at all possibly wait, I heard there may be a class in the next few months, but then again other sources say january...?

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by mpflies2

I did my CFI there from Jan-May, and would be teaching there right now if they didn't make the people that they issued CFI tickets to go through a months worth of standardization...essentially like 5 more checkrides. I was ready to start flying so I was almost immediatly picked up at Monarch Air in addison Tx. I'm flying near 100 hours a month and didnt have to worry about stan. If they need more instructors they need to lighten up on there hiring policy and there standardization policy. Just seems to me if you were good enough to get your CFI at the academy, why would you not be good enough to work for them?

Anyways, not a bad school otherwise....but I know quite a few other people that left or are leaving for the same reasons I did.

Marc

Don't take this the wrong way BUT........

I think you have missed the point of standardization. The reason you go through it is so that EVERYONE (ie. instructors and check airmen) are teaching the same material, the same way, and to the same "standards". This is the best and most important phase of training ANY school could offer/enforce for instructors.

It is true that you completed your CFI and were trained by FSA instructors, but that doesn't mean you are the best choice to instruct the new cadets coming through the ranks.

If you worked hard, studied all the right material, know your procedures and checklists by the back of your hand, then there shouldn't be any worries about making it through stands.

I am not saying this is you but..... usually the guys/gals that have an issue with stands are the ones with either a confidence problem or simply just didn't do that well in there training.

THE QUALITY TRAINING YOU RECIEVED AT FSA WAS A DIRECT RESULT OF THEIR STANDARDIZATION.....

ILS

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by ananoman

I agree 100%. A lot depends on who evaluates your presentation. I know of excellent instructors who were not hired and a few retards who never should have worked there. The same thing happens everywhere. I will say that over 90% of the instructors did an excellent job, and if you got one of the bad ones, it was relatively easy to switch.

For those who were not hired, they all got jobs somewhere else and it seemed to work out for most people. The training was excellent, so there were never any complaints there. The loan payments are another matter...

As far as how they treat the employees, maybe the current lack of CFI's will get them to make some positive changes. With the relative inexperience of the new CFI's they need a somewhat authoritarian management structure, but you should be able to accomplish this and still treat your people well.

I will agree with one thing..... There were some guys that were more qualified than others and did not get hired. It seems that the ones that were hired that probably shouldn't have been, had the thickest knee pads on.....

The one thing that some of the head people at FSA need to do is go back to the old days (before 2000) when they hired only the best of the best... Not the guy that stopped by their office and stroked their ego everyday...

We all knew who those guys were. The best pilots and instructor candidates knew they didn't have to stop by Wakefeilds and Haalands office everyday to stroke their ego. Unfortunatley, the ego stroking still goes on and the less qualified are still getting their instructor slot. Whatever it takes I guess...

ILS

[badco99]

Originally Posted by CLR4ILS

I will agree with one thing..... There were some guys that were more qualified than others and did not get hired. It seems that the ones that were hired that probably shouldn't have been, had the thickest knee pads on.....

The one thing that some of the head people at FSA need to do is go back to the old days (before 2000) when they hired only the best of the best... Not the guy that stopped by their office and stroked their ego everyday...

We all knew who those guys were. The best pilots and instructor candidates knew they didn't have to stop by Wakefeilds and Haalands office everyday to stroke their ego. Unfortunatley, the ego stroking still goes on and the less qualified are still getting their instructor slot. Whatever it takes I guess...

ILS

I agree with everything you said. I still think they need to get some new blood in and get rid of the top three guys. The morale issue starts with them I think. Oh wait, it's easier to fire all the good ground instructors and part-time help than to fire the people that couldn't crash into the ground even if they tried.

And as for instructors getting picked up elsewhere, I know at least one got hired just for the fact that he did his training at FSA, no interview. And I've heard the FSA instructors don't have much trouble finding jobs because people know how good the training is.

Jonboy, I'm in Vegas right now. Should be headed back to VA hopefully the first part of Oct. Have to redo a stupid treadmill stress test at the end of the month, but that's the only thing really holding me up getting rehired with the PD. One of the guys at LGB said you had done some computer program at ATL and there was talk of you going there to set up the same thing. Maybe it was just talk. As for ASA, I read that they might not be having classes until '07. BUT, apparently a few people were hinting at possibily something sooner. Of course I'm broke so I can't fly and I think my instrument currency is about to hit the 6 month mark. Plan on taking care of all that once I'm back in VA and have a paycheck, but right now I'm kind of screwed. Sounds like things are going good for you though. Good luck and keep in touch.

[USMCmech]

Originally Posted by CLR4ILS

Don't take this the wrong way BUT........

I think you have missed the point of standardization. The reason you go through it is so that EVERYONE (ie. instructors and check airmen) are teaching the same material, the same way, and to the same "standards". This is the best and most important phase of training ANY school could offer/enforce for instructors.

THE QUALITY TRAINING YOU RECIEVED AT FSA WAS A DIRECT RESULT OF THEIR STANDARDIZATION.

Yes, and No.

Standardization is a worthy goal, but will never be achieved as long as we are useing human beings as CFIs. Standz does iorn out most of the large kinks among the instructors, but plenty of variation remains.

My CFI for CMEI was TERRIFFIC! She was knowedgeable, patient with me, and busted my butt when it was called for. My instructor for my CFI was terrible, instead of letting pratice teaching, he took over and never let me get a word in, trying to teach me how to fly all over again.

I met plenty of great CFIs at FSA, and a handfull of really bad ones. One guy nearly came to blows with his CFI, another was reduced to tears on a regualr basis by her's.



I also didn't like the emphsis placed on one 15 minute presentation where deciding who to hire or not. I persoannly would give much more creedance to sealed letters of rec from a students former instructors who have seen them up in the air, along with a mock in flight lesson.

The patient heart of a teacher is what makes a great CFI, not regurtating what you were taught in a class.

[badco99]

Originally Posted by USMCmech

I also didn't like the emphsis placed on one 15 minute presentation where deciding who to hire or not. I persoannly would give much more creedance to sealed letters of rec from a students former instructors who have seen them up in the air, along with a mock in flight lesson.

Again, the bigger picture. I had a letter from my instructor that did all my training from Step I through Step V. They could have cared less. They have their little scoring system, and if it's not on the list they dont care.

At least if you have a problem with your instructor you can ask to change. To the students reading this just remember, you are a CUSTOMER and it's your $45k. They are pretty good about changing if you ask and I know numerous people that did.

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by USMCmech

Yes, and No.

Standardization is a worthy goal, but will never be achieved as long as we are useing human beings as CFIs. Standz does iorn out most of the large kinks among the instructors, but plenty of variation remains.

My CFI for CMEI was TERRIFFIC! She was knowedgeable, patient with me, and busted my butt when it was called for. My instructor for my CFI was terrible, instead of letting pratice teaching, he took over and never let me get a word in, trying to teach me how to fly all over again.

I met plenty of great CFIs at FSA, and a handfull of really bad ones. One guy nearly came to blows with his CFI, another was reduced to tears on a regualr basis by her's.



I also didn't like the emphsis placed on one 15 minute presentation where deciding who to hire or not. I persoannly would give much more creedance to sealed letters of rec from a students former instructors who have seen them up in the air, along with a mock in flight lesson.

The patient heart of a teacher is what makes a great CFI, not regurtating what you were taught in a class.

If an instructor is simply regurgitating or rotely repeating what they learned in class, then they did not learn the material well enough and should not be instructing.

FlightSafety has a proven system in place with respect to their syllabus, SOP, and checklists that produce a well trained pilot "when followed". The point of their standardization is to get everyone from the check airmen to the student using them correctly. By doing this, there is never a question how a maneuver should be performed, or what lesson the student is on, and better yet, what is expected of the student. The student has every available tool to track their own progress and should always know what is expected of them before each lesson.

There is a reason you will always find standardization and procedure in every airline and the military. It puts everyone on the same page and increases safety...

I have done a couple of ratings outside of FlightSafety at other schools. The lack of standardization, a good syllabus, SOP, and checklists that I have witnessed was not only scary, but downright unsafe. Those of us that were smart enough to go to a school like FSA, riddle, UND etc., should be very happy that we attended an institution that put safety first and implemented a program that left nothing out and covered all bases.

The proof is in the pass rate and safety/MX reccords of these fine pilot training institutions.

ILS

[mpflies2]

Originally Posted by CLR4ILS

Don't take this the wrong way BUT........

I think you have missed the point of standardization. The reason you go through it is so that EVERYONE (ie. instructors and check airmen) are teaching the same material, the same way, and to the same "standards". This is the best and most important phase of training ANY school could offer/enforce for instructors.

It is true that you completed your CFI and were trained by FSA instructors, but that doesn't mean you are the best choice to instruct the new cadets coming through the ranks.

If you worked hard, studied all the right material, know your procedures and checklists by the back of your hand, then there shouldn't be any worries about making it through stands.

I am not saying this is you but..... usually the guys/gals that have an issue with stands are the ones with either a confidence problem or simply just didn't do that well in there training.

THE QUALITY TRAINING YOU RECIEVED AT FSA WAS A DIRECT RESULT OF THEIR STANDARDIZATION.....

ILS

I do agree with you on this, and don't necessarily think they should change the way it is run, however, I was told that during these subsequent check flights if you messed up more than one lesson (aka had a bad day), then you were dropped from stan. This may be me being misinformed...who knows. But anyways, I left because I wanted to start teaching and flying as soon as possible. That I did. And it has worked out nicely for me. I don't so much mind the month of stan. But after I got my CFI (May 18th)..they were like, doesnt look like we're running interviews again until mid June. And then I would have to wait for the following stan, then the month that stan entails. So it would have set me back a few weeks/months in time, and I was just ready to get out there and start instructing.

As for FSA, I had a buddy inform me that he thought I was bashing FSA...I did not intend for my post to come off like this. I think Flight Safety is one of the best programs in the nation and wouldnt want to have gotten my CFI anywhere else. As far as employment, it just wasnt for me. I didnt even attempt the interview, though I believe that I am a quality enough instructor for the company.

I just got a job flying multi turbine at 520 hours for a respectable freight company, so I couldn't be happier with my decision.

Look forward to visiting back to FSA in the future and see how things change.

[Birdman113]

I doubt that FSA will make you leave stand if have a bad check flight during the 3 weeks. They want you to teach FSA's way and they understand that some people have learned different. They want to help you not just get rid of you. If you do bad all the time and keep making dumb choices that may be a different story. If you work hard and show that you want to do things there way you should make it through stand. You sign the contract before you start, there not just going to let you go for one bad flight.

[launchpad]

Originally Posted by Birdman113

I doubt that FSA will make you leave stand if have a bad check flight during the 3 weeks. They want you to teach FSA's way and they understand that some people have learned different. They want to help you not just get rid of you. If you do bad all the time and keep making dumb choices that may be a different story. If you work hard and show that you want to do things there way you should make it through stand. You sign the contract before you start, there not just going to let you go for one bad flight.

yep.......FSA operates like a lot of the airlines out there...if they hired you, they're going to work as hard as they can to get you making money for them. When I worked at FSA, I flew with a few people that screwed up on a standardization flight. They made these people fly a couple lessons with a senior instructor and then go back again. All of them made it through the process. There are always rumors floating around.

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by mpflies2

I just got a job flying multi turbine at 520 hours for a respectable freight company, so I couldn't be happier with my decision.

Congrats on the freight job. I wish I could grab a job like that being based out of PHX. I do have a good connection for a King Air job out of PHX. It would be part time. When I am finished with my current remodel I am working on I will figure out when and if I will return to the skies.

Congrats again....

ILS

[mpflies2]

Thanks CLR4ILS

[Flysher]

Originally Posted by mpflies2

I just got a job flying multi turbine at 520 hours for a respectable freight company, so I couldn't be happier with my decision.

If you dont mind me asking, what company did you get hired with? I am assuming its a two pilot operation considering your time. Congrats on the job, you will love freight!!!

[mpflies2]

Air Cargo Carriers.


However, I guess I don't officially have a job until I finish the class and pass the checkride, but I am however in the pool for the next class date.
Either way I'm very excited and am already studying so I'll be a bit ahead. Starting to look over the 135 regs.