Opinions of the school - How well did it meet your expectations?

[thebot]

can anyone here give me the complete lowdown on FSA ? If I attend this school it would be from start to finish .. aka private - CFI. So please specify if you were there for the complete program or just part of it.

I'd like to know your experiences with the school, the costs (did you go over budget- excluding living expenses)

Did you get a job at a regional after attending this school , and if so were you prepared?

Thanks in advance,

[psalm91]

Hi,

Been attending FSA since late last year; came in with my private pilot's license. My overall opinion of the school is favorable - they are expensive, so you either have to accept that or move on to something else. I personally do not care about the expense (or I wouldn't be here) but came to FSA because they were my school of choice after researching the others.

There are some things in the training that I find only marginally valuable - GAT and CRM. Other than that, I find the academy very challenging and rewarding. My personal experience has been that they do not hand out ratings here...if you are going to do things with half effort, then expect to spend a lot of money redoing your lessons and re-doing your checkrides (not that I have had to do that myself). IMHO the standards are high but not ridiculous; if you like a challenge and pride yourself on perfecting your flights every time you go up, then this is a good place for that, because they will definately make you work for a good flight score (if you care about more than just pass/fail).

I am in the process of finishing instrument and will more than likely go on to CFI...regional via Direct Track is somewhat questionable right now, however FSA has some very good prospects for the program that are now in the process of being implemented (i.e. new airlines for clients).

As far as budget is concerned, I'm gonna be just a little over, but only because my cost of living projections were based on a shorter time frame. The margin that I am over is very slim, but I should note that I haven't had to redo any lessons or checkrides - that can add up if you do not prepare well.

If you take your flights seriously, and you study like you are supposed to, you will have no problems. Pretty simple: Blow off studying and preparing, and you're going to blow off some more money :-D

Bottom line: it's a good school, and you feel like you earn your ratings here (at least I do), as opposed to just having them handed to you. They work with you to get you the right instructor, and they do care about their students. My instructor that I have now has been fantastic. I have had 4 throughout my time here, all of them have been good to excellent.

[DE727UPS]

"There are some things in the training that I find only marginally valuable...CRM"

OH...such sacrilege...

HAHA. I always thought CRM was common sense stuff you didn't really need a class for. I came up before it was a buzzword and had no real formal training. Somehow, I've made it 16 years at a major without a problem.

"regional via Direct Track is somewhat questionable right now"

Glad to hear it...

I can come up with a lot of reasons it's a bad choice. If you want to hear them, do a search. Whatever happened to Badco?

"Did you get a job at a regional after attending this school , and if so were you prepared"

Your preparedness for a regional has a lot more to do with your hours, experience, ratings, background, and networking than it does with what flight school you went to.

[badco99]

I still here UPS. Me and one other guy are still waiting for a class date. I'm hoping to get called on Monday or Tuesday. If not, I'm considering other options at this point.

I'd have to agree with everything psalm91 said. Training was great, a few things could be left out, a bit pricey but you get what you pay for. Right now I wouldn't want to work for them and if you read some of the other posts you can find out why. I think if they get some new blood in there it would be great.

The only area I went over on lessons was during the instrument training and even then it was only 3-4 lessons. And most people go over during the instrument training anyway, just a lot going on and it can be a bit overwhelming. Example, on what was suppose to be my last lesson before my checkride we were doing the VOR approach into Melbourne (partial panel by the way). I was so focused on the approach I forgot there was no FAF and forgot to do my final approach check once I was on the inbound leg. You know, the little things like set the power and put the gear down. No big deal So I had to do another lesson. And other than that it was perfect. But otherwise I was pretty much right on with regards to the number of lessons.

If anything I'd say get your CFI there, interview and regardless of the job offer go do the internship. The CFI program is excellent. And for all his complaining about FSA, even UPS seems to agree on that one.

Anyway, hope this helps. Good luck.

[DE727UPS]

"Me and one other guy are still waiting for a class date"

Well, I noticed some other JC guy who went to ATP is looking forward to a phone interview. So they must be hiring.

[psalm91]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"There are some things in the training that I find only marginally valuable...CRM"

OH...such sacrilege...

HAHA. I always thought CRM was common sense stuff you didn't really need a class for. I came up before it was a buzzword and had no real formal training. Somehow, I've made it 16 years at a major without a problem.

UPS, I guess I should have said "Some things in the training I would have rather paid less for and taken less time with". I found the INFORMATION in CRM to be valuable, but the price / time involved was not necessary. The points made could have been made inside of two days, and still been every bit as impactful. GAT (flight disorientation, vertigo, illusions, etc.) same thing. What makes them marginally VALUABLE is exactly that - I would rather have NOT spent the *amount* money that I did for these things, but oh well...this is their program, not mine, and I agreed to it when I signed on to come here.

While the school isn't perfect from MY point of view, overall they do a good job. There are only a few things that I have a problem with here, and those are being fixed right now (PCAD / FRASCA 142).

And Badco I know what you mean about instrument training (4B). Shooting back to back approaches at Melborne, configuring the aircraft and briefing the approach every time is insanely busy...but I like the challenge. Hopefully I won't have to take any extra lessons, funny but it always seems that I get everything down to where it needs to be on the last lesson. I've been ahead on the instrument side of things, so the last few lessons have just been a process of refinement (namely coms and nav setup).

I heard TSA already furloughed most of our instructors who went over there -what a drag. I figured the ASA program was completely over...I thought they gave you guys opportunities with American / TSA / Expressjet - no?

[thebot]

Thanks for your opinions guys ! This info has helped me a bunch.

Badco, you mentioned that you were waiting for a class date? Is that for flight saftey and if so, what class?

are their waiting lists and such?

Well basically, here are my thoughts, I'm going to view ari-ben and then basically choose between the 2 as I have already seen FSA.


Thanks !

[DE727UPS]

"Badco, you mentioned that you were waiting for a class date? Is that for flight saftey and if so, what class?"

Badco did the "direct entry" program with FSA. In the past, ASA has hired guys from this program in the 250 to 300 hour range. This is my main rant, that guys with those times don't belong in the right seat of an RJ. Beyond that, I don't hate FSA or have a problem with their training. I'm not sure one could choose a more expensive school. They will say you get what you pay for. I will counter that it's not worth it, all things considered. Then it becomes a circular argument based on opinion.

Check out many schools in person. Skymates is the one school that has a link to jetcareers at it's website. I think that says a lot as far as having nothing to hide and not being afraid of criticism.

[bLizZuE]

I think the school is great, but far from perfect. Sometimes they forget who pays who, and that gets frustrating.

[thebot]

So realistically, do the FSA students feel that you have any advantage because of the school's curriculum, name, training etc have any barring on your chances of getting hired at the regionals?

And i'm really curious what the realistic amount of flight time needed is to be hired at the regionals. I know that varies per airline etc.. but I'm curious about the success rate. Lets say I get all my ratings and have about 500-800 TT. Is it still based on luck if i'll get called for an interview? What kind of things stand out to them on a resume? I'm trying to figure out if there are any "advantages" that one can have other than TT, MET, etc..

I see a lot of guys on here with 2k TT and still no job at the regionals (speaking of the guys still that applied and are still waiting) and I'm trying to figure out why? I see that many of the regional's are hiring, so what are they looking for?

Thanks in advance !

[meritflyer]

Things that can make you "more competitive" OR look good on your resume may include

• Type rating
• CFI ratings
• Advanced Ground Instructor (AGI)
• Gold Seal Flight Instructor
• Decent flying jobs (CFI, jump pilot, traffic watch, pipeline patrol)
• Quality flight time (ie cross country)
• Multi-engine time (100 hours is minimums, 300 should do the trick)
• College degree
• Turbine time PIC
• Gulfstream Academy Graduate ( I had to)
• Part 121 or 135 experience

[bLizZuE]

Originally Posted by thebot

So realistically, do the FSA students feel that you have any advantage because of the school's curriculum, name, training etc have any barring on your chances of getting hired at the regionals?

Yes, no, yes. The training is awesome. The name won't do anything I don't think.

And i'm really curious what the realistic amount of flight time needed is to be hired at the regionals. I know that varies per airline etc.. but I'm curious about the success rate. Lets say I get all my ratings and have about 500-800 TT. Is it still based on luck if i'll get called for an interview? What kind of things stand out to them on a resume? I'm trying to figure out if there are any "advantages" that one can have other than TT, MET, etc..

If you start from zero time here, you'll only have about 250-300 TT when you finish all your ratings. Farrrrr from any minimum. Unless you participate in direct track. Minimums vary, but you should be ready to time build about ~1000 hours if you don't do something like direct track.

I see a lot of guys on here with 2k TT and still no job at the regionals (speaking of the guys still that applied and are still waiting) and I'm trying to figure out why? I see that many of the regional's are hiring, so what are they looking for?

Thanks in advance !

Because it's a tough industry. There is ALWAYS someone with more time, more experience. No matter what.

[badco99]

ASA is apparently hiring through July (according to airlinepilotcentral). It was my understanding that the program at FSA is on hold indefinetly. I would think that went for all the other programs too, but who knows.

UPS answered the class date question.

Psalm91, the best thing you can do (if you haven't been doing it) it to just slow down when you takeoff from VRB headed to MLB. Gives you time to get ATIS, figure out the approach, etc. Then as soon as you get kicked over to Daytona you can tell them you have info and what you want to do. Bring the power back up and start setting up/briefing. I was having no problem shooting the approaches, it was just the little things that were getting me. Sounds like you're doing great though if you're just fine tuning things the last few lessons.

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by thebot

can anyone here give me the complete lowdown on FSA ? If I attend this school it would be from start to finish .. aka private - CFI. So please specify if you were there for the complete program or just part of it.

I'd like to know your experiences with the school, the costs (did you go over budget- excluding living expenses)

Did you get a job at a regional after attending this school , and if so were you prepared?

Thanks in advance,

FSA is a great school. There is a reason they have one of the best names in the insustry. Their training is outstanding. They set the bar high, much higher than the FAA PTS. The PTS is a minimum standard. I am wondering when other schools and instructors will figure that out.

The price has gone up since I went there. They really should try to be more competitive in that area. The facilities, aircraft, Sims, MX, and overall campus are really nice.

The program is the best I have seen. The syllabus, SOP, Procedures and checklists have been written extremely well to compliment each other. The ground schools are very thorough as well.

Here lies the problem...... When I went through a few years back, things were much busier. The moral was high, the students were leaving at record pace, and the upper managment had it extremely easy (numbers were good and NY left them alone). We had a great director of academics and a great director of standardization that would only except the highest level of standards (St. George and Pence). Well, there is one thing that is certain to happen in all of our daily lives until we die.......CHANGE. People moved on and in my opinion these two guys were not replaced with people that held the same level of standards. The standards are still far above most schools but, it is not what it was.

Those of you who are there now have some upper management in place that are getting beat up by the idiots in New York who wont let them run the academy the way it needs to be run. New York is not seeing the numbers and they only know two colors on paper, red and black.

You students there now are going through the changes implemented by New York right along side of the management. It is a different ball game in aviation now and you guys will all just have to change with the market and state of the industry. Becoming a "good" pilot takes an enormous amount of commitment, persistence, hard work, and patients. You are at a great school that is providing the best tools to work with. If you have concerns, use the open door policy and get into Mr. Haalands office.

I do have to say that seeing even one post showing anything negative about the school is rather disapointing. It has only been recently that I have seen a few students have some sort of issue with the school. I know they still say the training is great but I really do not like seeing the issues with management.


WAKE UP FSA MANAGEMENT........ your alarm clock is ringing and you cannot continue to push the sleep button. A little hint for you.... If it is not broken, then do not try to fix it!!! Go to your file cabinet and pull out the old program syllabus, including the one for ground school from 2002 and earlier and re-implement them. I recall Lawler and a few others making some changes after St. George and Pence left, and standards have now gone down a bit since then. FSA ran like a well oiled machine back then and the students could not get enough of a great thing.

It really is that simple. Go back to the fundamentals and standards that made the FlightSafety name what it was and still is, take on a new marketing stategy, drop the freakin price, and things will return to the way they were...

Sorry for the ranting.... Just hate to see a great thing slip even just a little..

TheBot, my overall opinion of the school is still very high. You still will not find finer training.

ILS

[Flysher]

Flight safety was a very good school. I attended in 03/04. the training was top notch ( looking back at it now after being out in the real world). I can say that they definetly teach you right the first time.

Cost wise it was too damn much. I finished slightly over what they quoted me at and the bill payment is literally raping me each month. I cant afford anything extra at all. I financed the bose headset last month and returned it because i couldnt afford the extra 80 dollar a month payment.

Lastly, the name. Let me tell you something, and this is not intended to be a flame.

No one gives a crap that i went to flight safety.

I used to tell people that i went to FSA and I expected a cookie or something since i had just spent big dollars to go to the best flight school blah blah. In reality, the only real response i ever got was "oh cool" then move on to the next subject.

I recently sat in a room with 4 other guys and myself, all of us waiting to be interviewed for a job. everyone else in the room got there licenses at a mom and pop FBO. I got mine at FSA. We all got to the same place, only they got there 20,000 cheaper. We all got hired.

Anyway, if youve got the green backs to do it, go to FSA, get done ASAP, stay in the cheapest room, dont eat out alot, study so you finish without extra training, and come out with as little debt as you can.

And last but not least, dont do direct track BS.

[DE727UPS]

"And last but not least, dont do direct track BS"

Why do you say that?

[CLR4ILS]

Originally Posted by jfleisher

Flight safety was a very good school. I attended in 03/04. the training was top notch ( looking back at it now after being out in the real world). I can say that they definetly teach you right the first time.

Cost wise it was too damn much. I finished slightly over what they quoted me at and the bill payment is literally raping me each month. I cant afford anything extra at all. I financed the bose headset last month and returned it because i couldnt afford the extra 80 dollar a month payment.

Lastly, the name. Let me tell you something, and this is not intended to be a flame.

No one gives a crap that i went to flight safety.

I used to tell people that i went to FSA and I expected a cookie or something since i had just spent big dollars to go to the best flight school blah blah. In reality, the only real response i ever got was "oh cool" then move on to the next subject.

I recently sat in a room with 4 other guys and myself, all of us waiting to be interviewed for a job. everyone else in the room got there licenses at a mom and pop FBO. I got mine at FSA. We all got to the same place, only they got there 20,000 cheaper. We all got hired.

Anyway, if youve got the green backs to do it, go to FSA, get done ASAP, stay in the cheapest room, dont eat out alot, study so you finish without extra training, and come out with as little debt as you can.

And last but not least, dont do direct track BS.

Money aside, the training was second to none. Those who choose FlightSafety get past the money issue for the quality training. Whether you want to except it or not, your money was well spent....

Out of the four of you who got hired, I would take you as my crew member anyday. Why? Because I know you have been trained well in ALL area's. Beleive it or not, pilot recruiters and Cheif Pilots do recognize the name on your resume and they know you have been trained well. I know the lady who used to recruit for Mesa. She told me she knew when she saw FSA, Riddle and UND on a resume that the candidate was trained properly. She said with an FBO candidate it was ALWAYS hit and miss whether they would make it through indoc...

I once had a friend of mine who went the FBO route tell me....... "we all learn from the same books". Well let me tell you, friend or not, I wouldn't sign him off for his IPC. He wasn't happy, but I really don't care. He was also fired for not having soloed his students before 40 hours each. After flying with me, he now say's he wishes he went through FSA as well....

Not to say that all FBO operations are bad but at least at FSA I knew what kind of training I was going to get when I signed up.....

Don't regret it a bit, and now that the student loans are paid off I feel even better about my decision to attend FSA.


GO PHOENIX SUNS....... GAME ON AT 7:30 TONIGHT...

ILS

[Flysher]

CLR4ILS

Yes you are very right about what you said. I suppose my post was written wrong, i was just tryin to say that you dont need to go to flight safety to make it in the business, but it definetly helps alot!!

[Flysher]

DE727UPS

I just feel that someone doing direct track will miss out on all the fun in being a CFI, banner towing, flying jumpers, pipeline, flying psycho photographers, etc

[thebot]

Thanks for all of the reply's thus far... i'm still no closer on my decision as of yet.. but

Assuming I have my CFI in 10 months, how long am I looking to instruct before I am "attractive" to the regionals? I know min hours vary, but I don't want to count on min's ... but a more realistic figure... what does it take to be attractive to them? What is the ideal candidate?

[launchpad]

Originally Posted by thebot

Thanks for all of the reply's thus far... i'm still no closer on my decision as of yet.. but

Assuming I have my CFI in 10 months, how long am I looking to instruct before I am "attractive" to the regionals? I know min hours vary, but I don't want to count on min's ... but a more realistic figure... what does it take to be attractive to them? What is the ideal candidate?

You're enthusiasm is good, but I'd take this one step at a time. Long term planning in an industry where things change from day to day, is going to dissapoint you...and that's all it's going to do.

There are a lot of factors that change (and that have changed in the past). For instance, ask anyone who was around about 15 years ago and they'll tell you that you needed over 2500 hours just to get a regional job. Today the minumums are around 600 hours, but they could go up, or they could go down....or regionals will be completely eliminated and you won't have to worry about being competetive for the regionals.

As for a hard number on how long you're going to have to instruct, a lot depends on the minimums the airlines are looking for. It also depends quite a bit on how many students you can get in the course of a year. My first year and a half as an instructor was spent sitting on a couch on the off chance that there would be a maintenance flight or a discovery flight. I spent nearly 3 years instructing because business was slow. Now, I have old students of mine who have been instructing for 6 months calling for recommendations.

I instructed at flight safety and found it to be a top notch company and flight school. Their prices are high, but you get good training. That is what I would concentrate on right now. In fact, that's they only thing you can count on right now. Get your training done, and start working as a pilot. It may take you 10 months, or it may take you 3 years to get to that point. Then it might take you another 2 months or another 5 years to get to a regional, or a major or whatever's around at that point.

Now, that's the answer I have...it's obviously not the answer you want...so here's the one you want......

after getting your CFI (pvt-cfi at flight safety), you'll have approximately 300 hours. Minimums for most regionals are right around 1000 total time and 100 multi...give or take a few hundred hours. Figure on about 60 hours a month of flying (it's a conservative number for the situation now, but very optimistic for a while when I was instructing). That's about a year of instructing to meet the minimums. So, 22 months from now, if the regionals are as desperate as they are now, you'll meet their minimums. As for being competetive, it will always change. Read some of the interview gouges. You'll probably see all instructors interviewing recently; Compared to a year ago when there were a lot of pilots from other airlines with gobs of 121 experience mixed in with 1 or 2 instructors. right now, 1000/100 is fine. A year ago, however, 1000/100 as an instructor would get you a pat on the back and a "good work, son", as you walk out the door.

Take this one step at a time, and enjoy the journey. You may find that you want to go into some other facet of aviation flying. You may find that aviation is a great hobby, but not a career. You may find that driving boats is more enjoyable that any kind of airplane. Focus and determination are two very good qualities to have, just don't limit yourself to one outcome.......

back to my regularly scheduled frosty malted beverage....sorry for being so long winded....

[thebot]

thanks for the reply launchpad,

I have one other question for you, you mentioned that your first bit of instructing ws spent on the couch, that is one concern of mine, was that while you were at Flightsafety? or were you at another school at that stage?

[launchpad]

Originally Posted by thebot

thanks for the reply launchpad,

I have one other question for you, you mentioned that your first bit of instructing ws spent on the couch, that is one concern of mine, was that while you were at Flightsafety? or were you at another school at that stage?

Nope, that was at Flightsafety.....I earned my CFI shortly after september 11th, and then got hired and placed in a pool. Finished off my II and MEI and delivered pizzas until june of the next year before they started instructor standardization classes. Some people went elsewhere and came back later, some just left, and some unambitious slackers (like myself) just stayed in town and took in all it had to offer for 8 months (bobby's, kelly's, the patio, the menu, the riverside, et al).

From what I hear right now, they're short on instructors and everyone has 10 students.......I also heard that before I decided to go to Florida to get my CFI. Back then everyone had 10 students and instructors were leaving like crazy...........must be that cyclical stuff people keep on tellin' me about. You can never tell what's gonna happen next week, much less next year....especially in this bidness...

The couch was comfortable though....


Just a quick question for you....are you a career changer, or are you just graduating high school looking for the fastest way to grow up???

[rausda27]

Originally Posted by launchpad

Nope, that was at Flightsafety.....I earned my CFI shortly after september 11th, and then got hired and placed in a pool. Finished off my II and MEI and delivered pizzas until june of the next year before they started instructor standardization classes.

Is that you Geis?

[launchpad]

Originally Posted by rausda27

Is that you Geis?

nope...keep guessin'