Info on Direct Track Programs

Diamnd15 · October 2nd, 2005, 18:43

hey, i was wondering about all those direct track programs at FSA. Does anyone have any legit info on the programs. Right now i am only 18 and have around 270 total and about 40 multi. I dont which airlines i would have a chance with, but one good think i know is that u have the interview with a conditonal offer of employment before you throw down all the money for the course. If anyone has any good insight im all ears, thanks.

Cav · October 2nd, 2005, 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diamnd15

If anyone has any good insight im all ears, thanks.

WWWWWOOOOOOWWWW. Slow down there. Save your money and spend it on a college degree instead, preferably in a non aviation field. For about the same amount you would spend on a direct track program at FSA you could go to college, get your degree, have fun in college, work on your CFI, and have the opportunity to teach part time while in school and have enough time after you graduate to apply to a regional. Then you would have everything you need for this career (yes you need a college degree because most other applicants to the regionals and majors have it...why put yourself on the bottom of the stack at your age) or another one if aviation doesn't work out...there is always the possibility of losing your medical or getting furloughed. Speaking of furloughs, at your age what happens if you do a direct track program at FSA get the job and get furloughed 6 mos. later. Then you're left with no money, a pile of debt unless your parents financed you, no job, no ability to get hired elsewhere with little flight time, and no degree to fall back on for future employment. That doesn't sound so good! Slow down, pay your dues, get your degree, and you'll be a lot better prepared for this or any other career. You're 18, what's the hurry? Probably not what you were looking for but take it from this RJ FO, this career is not exactly as easy as "just getting the job."

Cav · October 2nd, 2005, 19:53

DE727, in 5...4...3...2...1...

Diamnd15, I hope I didn't come across as discouraging you from pursuing this career. I didn't mean to because it is a great career. I just hate to see someone such as yourself, who has obviously positioned yourself well with your current flight time at your age, make a mistake which may cost you just because you are in a hurry to reach your goal. My bet is you'll get there, just be careful that you don't let impatience impede good decision making. That's one of the qualities of a good pilot, right?

Diamnd15 · October 2nd, 2005, 20:22

dont get me wrong, everyone and there mom is making me a degree, thats #1 on my list. my family will be paying for all of that just i was wondering about the program. my real goal is to finish up school quick, im getting a job now being a ramper at either ual or swa, so that will help pay for the flight training i already got, but after getting that little paper that says i have a degree. after that i wanna get into a job so i can build up as much flight time before i turn 23. the whole instructing thing seems ok, but isnt my cup of tea. i just dont think pple a lot older than me would want a young fella like me teaching them how to fly, but im young i dont know how that would work. but instructing and going to college could possible work for me, but right now i have been having a bad time with my current flight school out here at san carlos in the san fran bay area. i wouldnt rly know where i would be able to do that cuz theres only a few flight schools out here and most of the places want old timers with a lot of time under there belt. so i dunno, lead me in the right direction

SteveC · October 2nd, 2005, 20:30

Why the rush?

Diamnd15 · October 2nd, 2005, 20:33

i want a reliable income so that i can pay off the loan from my flight training

launchpad · October 2nd, 2005, 20:39

your ambition is good...almost refreshing, but I would advise you to enjoy flying right now....All of your plans about instructing and going to college will definitely change at least a dozen times before you finish college. Judging by how much time you have at your age, I'm assuming that you enjoy flying...take that and run with it during college while you're working on your ratings....fly everywhere and anywhere if you have the money and enjoy it....after you finish having fun (and trust me, college is a lot of fun), then worry about a job.....instructing is a great way of improving yourself as a pilot....and your age really doesn't have anything to do with how people view your skill (as long as you work to be a good, professional instructor)...

If you feel that you still don't want to instruct when you finish school, then worry about finding another way of building time or look into the direct track programs.....

Whatever you do, here's a DO NOT list.... 1) DO NOT go to PFT places like Gulfstream or TAB 2) DO NOT make a plan and expect to be able to stick with it 100% in this business...things change hourly in aviation and you just have to roll with the punches. 3)DO NOT believe all those glossy ads in the magazines saying they'll get you an interview and/or a job in 6 months if you go through their program. The truth is, the only things that are going to help you in this business are personality, skill and ambition (you already have the last one). These things will get you a job regardless of where you train. 4) DO NOT get so focused on going to a regional in 2 months, that you forget why you're flying in the first place....there are a lot of jobs in this business. I've had students much like you with a 9 month plan, who ended up flying corporate or skywatch and are loving what they chose.....the regionals aren't the only road......

good luck

launchpad · October 2nd, 2005, 20:41

Oh ya.....regional FO pay isn't going to help you repay your loans.....butter up your parents or go kill a rich uncle...you'll be better off :-D

SteveC · October 2nd, 2005, 20:46

Well my standard reply is that I don't think taking out huge loans for flight training is a good idea. Much better to take an extra year or three and keep your ramp job and pay for your training as you go.

Have you ever calculated what the interest cost is on those loans? I can't think of any reason to waste all that extra money and put myself into such a precarious position. Precarious position meaning having a big loan debt hanging over my head with minimal income - any little glitch at all like an auto accident, hurricane, mugging, whatever, and your financial well-being is down the sewer.

Again, I don't think that there is any reason to rush. Listen to the guys around here that are twice (or three times) as old as you and you will hear them say that the journey is, in many many ways, more fun than the end goal. Lots of stories about flying freight, or jumpers, or traffic, or instructing, being more fun than doing FL350 reading a newspaper every day.

Take your time, enjoy the journey, learn more, be a more well-rounded pilot. Do some other jobs along the way to help pay your way, and as a bonus become a more well-rounded individual with lots of different life experiences to bring to the table. All of these are things that will help you throughout life, in aviation or in any other field. Don't shortchange yourself in a mad rush to get someplace, only to realize that you missed too many good things along the way.

Diamnd15 · October 2nd, 2005, 23:29

well one thing i cant go back on is i already have my commerical mutli engine license, i got that on my 18th birthday. its not that im in a rush to get into the air, its just been a dream of mine since about 5th grade when i first played FS98. i would like to get another kind of flying job, like traffic watch, flying skydivers, corportate, frieght, anything. but right now i only have about 270 total time, and i have tried rigorously to find a job in the bay area. i just love flying for flying

DE727UPS · October 3rd, 2005, 00:21

"Whatever you do, here's a DO NOT list.... 1) DO NOT go to PFT places like Gulfstream or TAB 2) DO NOT make a plan and expect to be able to stick with it 100% in this business...things change hourly in aviation and you just have to roll with the punches. 3)DO NOT believe all those glossy ads in the magazines saying they'll get you an interview and/or a job in 6 months if you go through their program. The truth is, the only things that are going to help you in this business are personality, skill and ambition (you already have the last one). These things will get you a job regardless of where you train. 4) DO NOT get so focused on going to a regional in 2 months, that you forget why you're flying in the first place....there are a lot of jobs in this business. I've had students much like you with a 9 month plan, who ended up flying corporate or skywatch and are loving what they chose.....the regionals aren't the only road......"

Yoda says nice job Obiwan. You guys don't need me anymore.....

FrenchPilot · October 3rd, 2005, 08:22

Even though all you guys gave great replys ... you didnt answer Diamnd's question :

Does anyone have any legit info on the [direct track] programs ?

I too would really like to hear what you know about them, it seems Diamnd is more interested in the Airline Direct track program, but I would like to have info about the Business Jet Direct Path. Any information will be apreciated.

Nico

DE727UPS · October 3rd, 2005, 13:29

"Does anyone have any legit info on the [direct track] programs ?"

Are you saying our opinions aren't legit?

I think what you meant to say was "is there anyone from FSA, or went to FSA, that could give me more info besides what's already on the FSA website"

FrenchPilot · October 3rd, 2005, 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"Does anyone have any legit info on the [direct track] programs ?"

Are you saying our opinions aren't legit?

I think what you meant to say was "is there anyone from FSA, or went to FSA, that could give me more info besides what's already on the FSA website"

No,of course not, I was just quoting Diamnd15 but yes that is what I would like to hear from you guys : information and opinions other then the ones found on FSA.com.

Could someone confirm what I understood from the FSA website, are the "Instructor Path" and "Business Jet Direct Path" free for people who got their CFI at FSA ?

Nico

badco99 · October 3rd, 2005, 14:36

I'll go ahead and repeat what most have said and then answer the questions. With 270 hrs, get your CFI, go to college and instruct. Chances are if you work hard by the time you graduate you'll have plenty of time to interview without having to go Direct Track.

But to answer the question...I just got accepted into the program with ASA and I'm just waiting to start. Pretty simple process, just submit an application through FSA and wait for the call. They do a phone interview then send a full application. After you send that in you just wait for the call for a face to face interview. About a week after the face to face I got the letter saying I was in. I know several people in the program now and they say the training has been excellent. Also, ASA has never had someone who has gone through the program fail their training program.

ASA and TransStates have no min hours. ExpressJet is 400TT and 100ME if I remember right and I think American Eagle wants 330TT and I think about 50ME. Since you haven't done any training at FSA they make people from outside do proficieny training before you can apply for one of the programs. Yeah, its a way for them to make a buck, but also to make sure you can get through the training program. I'm not real sure exactly how it works.

Business Jet Direct...Before trying Direct Track I was all set to do this. I got my CFI and then interviewed for a job with FSA. Part of the interview is a sim ride in the Frasca to demonstrate basic instrument proficency. Do well and you can do the program. I was offered the Business Jet Direct but not the CFI position. When you are accepted you go in and see which center you'd like to go to. I was all set to go to Long Beach. Basically when you go they assign you to an aircraft and you get SIC qualified. When pilots come in without a training partner you get to sit in with them. Aircraft types vary from center to center but they have everything from King Air to Gulfstream. The thing to remember is you must interview for a CFI to be accepted into the program. Again this is another area where they get a little picky with people who haven't done any training at FSA. I emphasize the fact that if you are coming from outside FSA you need to check on the eligibility requirements for each program.

The people I know that have done the program think its great. You get some time with advanced systems and it's a great way to network. A few people have even gotten jobs through it, and that includes poeple under 500hrs. BUT those are few and far between and you shouldn't count on a job offer.

That should give you a general idea. If you want more detailed info you should really contact the Marketing Dept. Any other questions feel free to ask.

badco99 · October 3rd, 2005, 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrenchPilot

Could someone confirm what I understood from the FSA website, are the "Instructor Path" and "Business Jet Direct Path" free for people who got their CFI at FSA ?

Nico

Instructor Path - After you do your CFI and are offer a job FSA will pay for half of the CFII. Once you finish standardization they reimburse you for the rest. After 100 hours of instruction they fully cover your MEI. Just a reminder that you are under contract for 800hours. If you leave before that they prorate the training costs and you have to pay them back.

Business jet direct is a paid internship. You don't have to pay for any of the training.

As before, contact Marketing for more detailed info.

launchpad · October 3rd, 2005, 14:43

Ok...the direct track programs for ASA, Express Jet and Eagle are basically Pay for interview types of programs....once you show interest in the program, you'll get a watered down interview with one of those regionals....the minimum flight experience is different for each one....i think ASA is 300 and Express Jet and Eagle both want 500 (but I could be wrong)....If you get a conditional offer of employment, you plunk down 25 Large (maybe more, I'm not sure). You start what FSA calls the AATP program...basically you, another AATP guy and the instructor go on "loft" flights.....they have made up special profiles for the Seminole with call outs from the airline that you're supposedly going to. I believe you have to complete at least one or two steps (4 and 5) at FSA or you have to do an additional amount of training in the AATP program....I think the total flight time when everything is said and done is about 25 hours (give or take). If you successfully complete that,you go to the sim and learn the airline specific call outs, procedures, etc.etc.etc...now that they have the ERJ sim, it's basically an exact replica of the training program you'll go through at the airline you're going to......at any time during this time, you can wash out and lose all da money...and remember, food, lodging and booze are gonna cost you extra.......if you make it through the gauntlet, you go to the airline and their training program, again you can wash out at any time..........

as far as the business jet direct program, or whatever they're calling it these days, it's basically an internship. if you get your CFI at FSA, you can apply for a paid internship at one of the other FlightSafety learning centers...many people have gone to Atlanta, Wilmington, Wichita and Savannah, but there are a lot more. They used to only offer these internships to people who were hired on as instructors and waiting to start (back when the wait was more than a year), but I'm pretty sure it's available to anyone who completes at least one CFI ticket with FSA. After the internship, a lot of people are able to find work at corporate operators, and some get hired on by the centers as sim instructors....but more opportunity than the direct track programs in my opinion.

As far as the price for the internship, yes it's free, but you have to pay for the cost of the CFI ticket. If you choose to stay as an instructor at FSA (and assuming you get hired), you'll get your CFII and MEI paid for also (just the base price, not any extra training or lodging, etc. etc.) After that, you'll go through standardization, a 1 month training process which includes a lot of ground school and 4 or so checkrides....I'm pretty sure you get paid during this training.
phew......if you have anymore questions, feel free to ask

As far as I'm concerned, the internship (or whatever they're calling it these days) is a much better option than the direct track programs, and it's a much better way to get a wide variety of experience and meet a lot of people who can take you places. The direct track programs are for people with SJS who dont' want to work in order to get ahead. On top of that, you'll be a 300 hour pilot with about 100 multi, with airline training who can't get an airline job if you washout or your airline goes Tango Uniform....that's something to think about.....you're pretty much stuck and probably will end up instructing :-D just my opinion

FrenchPilot · October 3rd, 2005, 15:19

Thank you very much for your replies.

badco99, do you mind telling me why you were not hired as an instructor and most importantly why you chose, as I understand, not to go thru the "Business Jet Direct" program but are enrolled in the "Direct Track"(regionnals)program ?

Is it possible to instruct at FSA and THEN go thru the Business Jet Direct ? I'm thinking if I could do it that way it would optimise my chances of being hired during the internship since I would have a minimum of 1100 TT (300 for training and the manditory 800 instructing)

Nico

badco99 · October 3rd, 2005, 17:24

There are three parts to the interview. One on one with chief pilot, a presentation on a flight maneuver (just like teaching a student), and the sim (which only counts for the business jet direct). Apparently I wasn't specific enough on some of my information, and one instructor thought it just wasn't very interesting. I could have done my CFII and done the presentation again, but I just wanted to do something else. While getting everything together for the internship my parents asked why not try for the direct track and see what happens. I know all the high time guys aren't going to like this, but I'm going to say it anyway. Basically my parents thought and mine too was why not try direct track and hopefully end up with a job at an airline, rather than try the internship for about 6 mo, come back to Vero, get my CFII, do the presentation again and hopefully be deemed worthy to instruct here. Then it would be another 1 1/2 to 2 years before I could complete the contract and be able to interview at an airline. I figured I had nothing to loose by at least trying. So, for a change I actually had a back up plan in place if the direct track didn't work.

There are two "phases" to the internship. You can do a 90 day internship before you instruct (actually ends up being 5-6 mo so they can get the most out of you), and then after you've finished your 800hrs you can do a year long internship. I've heard this may have changed, but I understood that if you had over 1000 hrs they would type rate you in one of the sims...and thats on FSA's dime. Thats why a lot of instructors thought it was good to do the internship after your 800hrs. If you had over 1000hrs during the internship I'd say your chances of a job offer would be better than most. Again, no guarantees and you should really call to see what hoops they'll make you jump through since you're coming from outside FSA.

Anyway, if you have anything else just let me know.

DE727UPS · October 3rd, 2005, 17:38

"I know all the high time guys aren't going to like this, but I'm going to say it anyway. Basically my parents thought and mine too was why not try direct track and hopefully end up with a job at an airline, rather than try the internship for about 6 mo, come back to Vero, get my CFII, do the presentation again and hopefully be deemed worthy to instruct here. Then it would be another 1 1/2 to 2 years before I could complete the contract and be able to interview at an airline."

HAHA....at least your honest.

The way I see it, you've been forwarned of the possible dangers and disadvantages of a direct track type program and I'm sure you know why I don't like them. That said, I wish you luck in your career.

One thing I don't get, though. You seem all wound up with having to be a part of FSA. You seem to think you only have two options. It's either do direct track or do what it takes (I agree it's too much) to instruct there. You got your CFI, right? Just go get a job somewhere. You don't have to be an airline pilot RIGHT NOW do you? Are you like 40 or something? I didn't think so. Taking your time will make you a better pilot in the end.

FrenchPilot · October 3rd, 2005, 18:07

Quote:

Then it would be another 1 1/2 to 2 years before I could complete the contract and be able to interview at an airline.

That seems like a long time to fly 800 hours. Do the instructors not fly allot ?

Does anyone know of other ways, like the Business Jet Direct, permitting to get into corporate aviation ?

When is will start training at FSA I will already have my written IR and CPL (that I got thru the UVSC Online program), do you think I can arrange something with them to not have to go thru all the ground school ? Yes the best way is to ask them directly, I'll go see this week what they can tell me at FSI in Paris Le Bourget, but if you guys know it might relief me to know I havent done all that for nothing ...

Thanks for helping me out

badco99 · October 3rd, 2005, 18:16

Yes, at least I'm honest. I know the dangers and disadvantages and I appreciate you not starting the debate here again. At this point it seems like beating a dead horse.

I guess I'm a little wound up about FSA. I looked at other places but FSA seemed to be one of the better places to build time. To be honest I'd prefer to not instruct. Now thats not to say if I did I wouldn't take it seriously, I would. But it's just not what I want to do. If I wanted to teach I'd be putting my college degree to good use right now. If I could get a job flying freight or something I would. About the only job I could probably do right now is banner towing and even low time jobs doing that are hard to come by. It just seems like a catch 22...you need time to get the job, but you need the job to get the time.

I will say this...at least I know my place. I'm not going into this program thinking I'm god's gift to aviation and I know I don't know everything. But no one knows everything...and anyone who says they do scares me. I don't care how much time they have, no one knows it all. All I can do is work hard and learn from others.

badco99 · October 3rd, 2005, 18:22

Things were kind of slow, but a lot of instructors just got hired so the one's that are still here are working more now.

I think corporate is like everything else, you just need to build the time, interview and see what happens. I'm sure others can provide better insight.

I think they can taylor the training to what you've already done, but it's case by case.

CLR4ILS · October 5th, 2005, 01:47

"or do what it takes (I agree it's too much) to instruct there."

DE727......You think it's too much? They have standardization for a reason. It produces good pilots and good instructors who will be training the next pilot coming through the ranks. They are very picky about who instructs there and it is a good thing.

IMO....I think you (BADCO99) should do your CFII and interveiw again. I know alot of people that did not make the cut the first time but did the second time after CFII. Besides, you will hone those instrument skills when you do the CFII which will only help you if you do go the direct track program.

Give it a shot... You are FSA trained and I am sure you did well through your training. You can also ask Mr Wakefield and Mr Lawler for help in preparing for the second interview. they will respect your effort and you may earn some points before the interview.

ILS

DE727UPS · October 5th, 2005, 02:05

I think he should get out of the system and go get a friggen job. Why kiss these people's butts any longer. They have enough of your hard earned money as it is and they want to keep you in the pipeline as a CFI for two more years? And they think that two years produces higher standards but look the other way with direct entry jet F/O's. "We gotta keep our standards up with our CFI's but if you fork over the dough for direct entry, experience isn't really a problem"...get real.

Dude....you should run like the wind. It ain't worth it if you're stuck as a FSA CFI for two years.

Like I said before, good luck whatever you decide.

October 2nd, 2005, 20:30	#5
SteveC Ameliorator Join Date: May 2003 Location: GRR Posts: 11,073	Why the rush? __________________ . If life gives you lemons, throw 'em into a quart of vodka. ~Red Green

October 2nd, 2005, 20:46	#9
SteveC Ameliorator Join Date: May 2003 Location: GRR Posts: 11,073	Well my standard reply is that I don't think taking out huge loans for flight training is a good idea. Much better to take an extra year or three and keep your ramp job and pay for your training as you go. Have you ever calculated what the interest cost is on those loans? I can't think of any reason to waste all that extra money and put myself into such a precarious position. Precarious position meaning having a big loan debt hanging over my head with minimal income - any little glitch at all like an auto accident, hurricane, mugging, whatever, and your financial well-being is down the sewer. Again, I don't think that there is any reason to rush. Listen to the guys around here that are twice (or three times) as old as you and you will hear them say that the journey is, in many many ways, more fun than the end goal. Lots of stories about flying freight, or jumpers, or traffic, or instructing, being more fun than doing FL350 reading a newspaper every day. Take your time, enjoy the journey, learn more, be a more well-rounded pilot. Do some other jobs along the way to help pay your way, and as a bonus become a more well-rounded individual with lots of different life experiences to bring to the table. All of these are things that will help you throughout life, in aviation or in any other field. Don't shortchange yourself in a mad rush to get someplace, only to realize that you missed too many good things along the way. __________________ . If life gives you lemons, throw 'em into a quart of vodka. ~Red Green

October 3rd, 2005, 08:22	#12
FrenchPilot Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: San Diego Posts: 172	Even though all you guys gave great replys ... you didnt answer Diamnd's question : Does anyone have any legit info on the [direct track] programs ? I too would really like to hear what you know about them, it seems Diamnd is more interested in the Airline Direct track program, but I would like to have info about the Business Jet Direct Path. Any information will be apreciated. Nico __________________ .Nico.

October 3rd, 2005, 14:36	#15
badco99 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 133	Direct Track and Business Jet Direct I'll go ahead and repeat what most have said and then answer the questions. With 270 hrs, get your CFI, go to college and instruct. Chances are if you work hard by the time you graduate you'll have plenty of time to interview without having to go Direct Track. But to answer the question...I just got accepted into the program with ASA and I'm just waiting to start. Pretty simple process, just submit an application through FSA and wait for the call. They do a phone interview then send a full application. After you send that in you just wait for the call for a face to face interview. About a week after the face to face I got the letter saying I was in. I know several people in the program now and they say the training has been excellent. Also, ASA has never had someone who has gone through the program fail their training program. ASA and TransStates have no min hours. ExpressJet is 400TT and 100ME if I remember right and I think American Eagle wants 330TT and I think about 50ME. Since you haven't done any training at FSA they make people from outside do proficieny training before you can apply for one of the programs. Yeah, its a way for them to make a buck, but also to make sure you can get through the training program. I'm not real sure exactly how it works. Business Jet Direct...Before trying Direct Track I was all set to do this. I got my CFI and then interviewed for a job with FSA. Part of the interview is a sim ride in the Frasca to demonstrate basic instrument proficency. Do well and you can do the program. I was offered the Business Jet Direct but not the CFI position. When you are accepted you go in and see which center you'd like to go to. I was all set to go to Long Beach. Basically when you go they assign you to an aircraft and you get SIC qualified. When pilots come in without a training partner you get to sit in with them. Aircraft types vary from center to center but they have everything from King Air to Gulfstream. The thing to remember is you must interview for a CFI to be accepted into the program. Again this is another area where they get a little picky with people who haven't done any training at FSA. I emphasize the fact that if you are coming from outside FSA you need to check on the eligibility requirements for each program. The people I know that have done the program think its great. You get some time with advanced systems and it's a great way to network. A few people have even gotten jobs through it, and that includes poeple under 500hrs. BUT those are few and far between and you shouldn't count on a job offer. That should give you a general idea. If you want more detailed info you should really contact the Marketing Dept. Any other questions feel free to ask.

October 3rd, 2005, 15:19	#18
FrenchPilot Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: San Diego Posts: 172	Thank you very much for your replies. badco99, do you mind telling me why you were not hired as an instructor and most importantly why you chose, as I understand, not to go thru the "Business Jet Direct" program but are enrolled in the "Direct Track"(regionnals)program ? Is it possible to instruct at FSA and THEN go thru the Business Jet Direct ? I'm thinking if I could do it that way it would optimise my chances of being hired during the internship since I would have a minimum of 1100 TT (300 for training and the manditory 800 instructing) Nico __________________ .Nico.

October 2nd, 2005, 18:43	#1
Diamnd15 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: SF Bay Area, Cali Posts: 344	Info on Direct Track Programs hey, i was wondering about all those direct track programs at FSA. Does anyone have any legit info on the programs. Right now i am only 18 and have around 270 total and about 40 multi. I dont which airlines i would have a chance with, but one good think i know is that u have the interview with a conditonal offer of employment before you throw down all the money for the course. If anyone has any good insight im all ears, thanks.

October 2nd, 2005, 19:53	#3
Cav Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Let me look, I forgot. Posts: 842	DE727, in 5...4...3...2...1... Diamnd15, I hope I didn't come across as discouraging you from pursuing this career. I didn't mean to because it is a great career. I just hate to see someone such as yourself, who has obviously positioned yourself well with your current flight time at your age, make a mistake which may cost you just because you are in a hurry to reach your goal. My bet is you'll get there, just be careful that you don't let impatience impede good decision making. That's one of the qualities of a good pilot, right?

October 2nd, 2005, 20:22	#4
Diamnd15 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: SF Bay Area, Cali Posts: 344	dont get me wrong, everyone and there mom is making me a degree, thats #1 on my list. my family will be paying for all of that just i was wondering about the program. my real goal is to finish up school quick, im getting a job now being a ramper at either ual or swa, so that will help pay for the flight training i already got, but after getting that little paper that says i have a degree. after that i wanna get into a job so i can build up as much flight time before i turn 23. the whole instructing thing seems ok, but isnt my cup of tea. i just dont think pple a lot older than me would want a young fella like me teaching them how to fly, but im young i dont know how that would work. but instructing and going to college could possible work for me, but right now i have been having a bad time with my current flight school out here at san carlos in the san fran bay area. i wouldnt rly know where i would be able to do that cuz theres only a few flight schools out here and most of the places want old timers with a lot of time under there belt. so i dunno, lead me in the right direction

October 2nd, 2005, 20:33	#6
Diamnd15 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: SF Bay Area, Cali Posts: 344	i want a reliable income so that i can pay off the loan from my flight training

October 2nd, 2005, 20:39	#7
launchpad Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 655	your ambition is good...almost refreshing, but I would advise you to enjoy flying right now....All of your plans about instructing and going to college will definitely change at least a dozen times before you finish college. Judging by how much time you have at your age, I'm assuming that you enjoy flying...take that and run with it during college while you're working on your ratings....fly everywhere and anywhere if you have the money and enjoy it....after you finish having fun (and trust me, college is a lot of fun), then worry about a job.....instructing is a great way of improving yourself as a pilot....and your age really doesn't have anything to do with how people view your skill (as long as you work to be a good, professional instructor)... If you feel that you still don't want to instruct when you finish school, then worry about finding another way of building time or look into the direct track programs..... Whatever you do, here's a DO NOT list.... 1) DO NOT go to PFT places like Gulfstream or TAB 2) DO NOT make a plan and expect to be able to stick with it 100% in this business...things change hourly in aviation and you just have to roll with the punches. 3)DO NOT believe all those glossy ads in the magazines saying they'll get you an interview and/or a job in 6 months if you go through their program. The truth is, the only things that are going to help you in this business are personality, skill and ambition (you already have the last one). These things will get you a job regardless of where you train. 4) DO NOT get so focused on going to a regional in 2 months, that you forget why you're flying in the first place....there are a lot of jobs in this business. I've had students much like you with a 9 month plan, who ended up flying corporate or skywatch and are loving what they chose.....the regionals aren't the only road...... good luck

October 2nd, 2005, 20:41	#8
launchpad Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 655	Oh ya.....regional FO pay isn't going to help you repay your loans.....butter up your parents or go kill a rich uncle...you'll be better off :-D

October 2nd, 2005, 23:29	#10
Diamnd15 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: SF Bay Area, Cali Posts: 344	well one thing i cant go back on is i already have my commerical mutli engine license, i got that on my 18th birthday. its not that im in a rush to get into the air, its just been a dream of mine since about 5th grade when i first played FS98. i would like to get another kind of flying job, like traffic watch, flying skydivers, corportate, frieght, anything. but right now i only have about 270 total time, and i have tried rigorously to find a job in the bay area. i just love flying for flying

October 3rd, 2005, 00:21	#11
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,625	"Whatever you do, here's a DO NOT list.... 1) DO NOT go to PFT places like Gulfstream or TAB 2) DO NOT make a plan and expect to be able to stick with it 100% in this business...things change hourly in aviation and you just have to roll with the punches. 3)DO NOT believe all those glossy ads in the magazines saying they'll get you an interview and/or a job in 6 months if you go through their program. The truth is, the only things that are going to help you in this business are personality, skill and ambition (you already have the last one). These things will get you a job regardless of where you train. 4) DO NOT get so focused on going to a regional in 2 months, that you forget why you're flying in the first place....there are a lot of jobs in this business. I've had students much like you with a 9 month plan, who ended up flying corporate or skywatch and are loving what they chose.....the regionals aren't the only road......" Yoda says nice job Obiwan. You guys don't need me anymore.....

October 3rd, 2005, 13:29	#13
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,625	"Does anyone have any legit info on the [direct track] programs ?" Are you saying our opinions aren't legit? I think what you meant to say was "is there anyone from FSA, or went to FSA, that could give me more info besides what's already on the FSA website"

October 3rd, 2005, 14:43	#17
launchpad Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 655	Ok...the direct track programs for ASA, Express Jet and Eagle are basically Pay for interview types of programs....once you show interest in the program, you'll get a watered down interview with one of those regionals....the minimum flight experience is different for each one....i think ASA is 300 and Express Jet and Eagle both want 500 (but I could be wrong)....If you get a conditional offer of employment, you plunk down 25 Large (maybe more, I'm not sure). You start what FSA calls the AATP program...basically you, another AATP guy and the instructor go on "loft" flights.....they have made up special profiles for the Seminole with call outs from the airline that you're supposedly going to. I believe you have to complete at least one or two steps (4 and 5) at FSA or you have to do an additional amount of training in the AATP program....I think the total flight time when everything is said and done is about 25 hours (give or take). If you successfully complete that,you go to the sim and learn the airline specific call outs, procedures, etc.etc.etc...now that they have the ERJ sim, it's basically an exact replica of the training program you'll go through at the airline you're going to......at any time during this time, you can wash out and lose all da money...and remember, food, lodging and booze are gonna cost you extra.......if you make it through the gauntlet, you go to the airline and their training program, again you can wash out at any time.......... as far as the business jet direct program, or whatever they're calling it these days, it's basically an internship. if you get your CFI at FSA, you can apply for a paid internship at one of the other FlightSafety learning centers...many people have gone to Atlanta, Wilmington, Wichita and Savannah, but there are a lot more. They used to only offer these internships to people who were hired on as instructors and waiting to start (back when the wait was more than a year), but I'm pretty sure it's available to anyone who completes at least one CFI ticket with FSA. After the internship, a lot of people are able to find work at corporate operators, and some get hired on by the centers as sim instructors....but more opportunity than the direct track programs in my opinion. As far as the price for the internship, yes it's free, but you have to pay for the cost of the CFI ticket. If you choose to stay as an instructor at FSA (and assuming you get hired), you'll get your CFII and MEI paid for also (just the base price, not any extra training or lodging, etc. etc.) After that, you'll go through standardization, a 1 month training process which includes a lot of ground school and 4 or so checkrides....I'm pretty sure you get paid during this training. phew......if you have anymore questions, feel free to ask As far as I'm concerned, the internship (or whatever they're calling it these days) is a much better option than the direct track programs, and it's a much better way to get a wide variety of experience and meet a lot of people who can take you places. The direct track programs are for people with SJS who dont' want to work in order to get ahead. On top of that, you'll be a 300 hour pilot with about 100 multi, with airline training who can't get an airline job if you washout or your airline goes Tango Uniform....that's something to think about.....you're pretty much stuck and probably will end up instructing :-D just my opinion

October 3rd, 2005, 17:24	#19
badco99 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 133	There are three parts to the interview. One on one with chief pilot, a presentation on a flight maneuver (just like teaching a student), and the sim (which only counts for the business jet direct). Apparently I wasn't specific enough on some of my information, and one instructor thought it just wasn't very interesting. I could have done my CFII and done the presentation again, but I just wanted to do something else. While getting everything together for the internship my parents asked why not try for the direct track and see what happens. I know all the high time guys aren't going to like this, but I'm going to say it anyway. Basically my parents thought and mine too was why not try direct track and hopefully end up with a job at an airline, rather than try the internship for about 6 mo, come back to Vero, get my CFII, do the presentation again and hopefully be deemed worthy to instruct here. Then it would be another 1 1/2 to 2 years before I could complete the contract and be able to interview at an airline. I figured I had nothing to loose by at least trying. So, for a change I actually had a back up plan in place if the direct track didn't work. There are two "phases" to the internship. You can do a 90 day internship before you instruct (actually ends up being 5-6 mo so they can get the most out of you), and then after you've finished your 800hrs you can do a year long internship. I've heard this may have changed, but I understood that if you had over 1000 hrs they would type rate you in one of the sims...and thats on FSA's dime. Thats why a lot of instructors thought it was good to do the internship after your 800hrs. If you had over 1000hrs during the internship I'd say your chances of a job offer would be better than most. Again, no guarantees and you should really call to see what hoops they'll make you jump through since you're coming from outside FSA. Anyway, if you have anything else just let me know.

October 3rd, 2005, 17:38	#20
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,625	"I know all the high time guys aren't going to like this, but I'm going to say it anyway. Basically my parents thought and mine too was why not try direct track and hopefully end up with a job at an airline, rather than try the internship for about 6 mo, come back to Vero, get my CFII, do the presentation again and hopefully be deemed worthy to instruct here. Then it would be another 1 1/2 to 2 years before I could complete the contract and be able to interview at an airline." HAHA....at least your honest. The way I see it, you've been forwarned of the possible dangers and disadvantages of a direct track type program and I'm sure you know why I don't like them. That said, I wish you luck in your career. One thing I don't get, though. You seem all wound up with having to be a part of FSA. You seem to think you only have two options. It's either do direct track or do what it takes (I agree it's too much) to instruct there. You got your CFI, right? Just go get a job somewhere. You don't have to be an airline pilot RIGHT NOW do you? Are you like 40 or something? I didn't think so. Taking your time will make you a better pilot in the end.

October 3rd, 2005, 18:16	#22
badco99 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 133	Yes, at least I'm honest. I know the dangers and disadvantages and I appreciate you not starting the debate here again. At this point it seems like beating a dead horse. I guess I'm a little wound up about FSA. I looked at other places but FSA seemed to be one of the better places to build time. To be honest I'd prefer to not instruct. Now thats not to say if I did I wouldn't take it seriously, I would. But it's just not what I want to do. If I wanted to teach I'd be putting my college degree to good use right now. If I could get a job flying freight or something I would. About the only job I could probably do right now is banner towing and even low time jobs doing that are hard to come by. It just seems like a catch 22...you need time to get the job, but you need the job to get the time. I will say this...at least I know my place. I'm not going into this program thinking I'm god's gift to aviation and I know I don't know everything. But no one knows everything...and anyone who says they do scares me. I don't care how much time they have, no one knows it all. All I can do is work hard and learn from others.

October 3rd, 2005, 18:22	#23
badco99 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 133	Things were kind of slow, but a lot of instructors just got hired so the one's that are still here are working more now. I think corporate is like everything else, you just need to build the time, interview and see what happens. I'm sure others can provide better insight. I think they can taylor the training to what you've already done, but it's case by case.

October 5th, 2005, 01:47	#24
CLR4ILS Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Scottsdale, Arizona Posts: 587	"or do what it takes (I agree it's too much) to instruct there." DE727......You think it's too much? They have standardization for a reason. It produces good pilots and good instructors who will be training the next pilot coming through the ranks. They are very picky about who instructs there and it is a good thing. IMO....I think you (BADCO99) should do your CFII and interveiw again. I know alot of people that did not make the cut the first time but did the second time after CFII. Besides, you will hone those instrument skills when you do the CFII which will only help you if you do go the direct track program. Give it a shot... You are FSA trained and I am sure you did well through your training. You can also ask Mr Wakefield and Mr Lawler for help in preparing for the second interview. they will respect your effort and you may earn some points before the interview. ILS __________________ Flight Safety CFI/CFII/MEI ---------------------------------------------------------------- The United States is a land of equal opportunity, not equal outcome...

October 5th, 2005, 02:05	#25
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,625	I think he should get out of the system and go get a friggen job. Why kiss these people's butts any longer. They have enough of your hard earned money as it is and they want to keep you in the pipeline as a CFI for two more years? And they think that two years produces higher standards but look the other way with direct entry jet F/O's. "We gotta keep our standards up with our CFI's but if you fork over the dough for direct entry, experience isn't really a problem"...get real. Dude....you should run like the wind. It ain't worth it if you're stuck as a FSA CFI for two years. Like I said before, good luck whatever you decide.

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